Occupy Wall Street Sept 17 2011

[blueblood]

So what? What does the gap in the US have to do with the "gap" or finances in Canada? Would it make any difference if the "gap" was growing faster in the USA?

I wonder what the protestors have to say about this...

Cbc

I see people getting better and better off...

[jbg]

Today is apparently a global Occupy day in support of those who began at Wall Street. This hasn't died yet. It's gaining momentum, whether we like it or not.

As happened to Bonaparte's and Hitler's troops, "General Winter" will bring these demonstrations to an end. These pansies don't would wilt and freeze in -10C weather typical of parts of New York winters.

[jacee]

I don't think there will be that many people protesting, just about everyone here has a job and Alberta is crying for workers

EDMONTON

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/occupy-protests-under-way-across-canada/article2202234/?service=mobile.

Chelsea Taylor, who is part of the Occupy Edmonton movement, Alberta’s oil industry is dictating government policy. “Oil might run your car, but it really shouldn’t run your government,” Ms. Taylor said.

CALGARY

http://www.calgaryherald.com/touch/story.html?id=5556758

Hundreds of people drummed, chanted and protested issues ranging from income disparity, capitalism and corporate politics to homelessness and fiat currency during“Occupy Calgary.” They began their protest at the foot of the ocked glass doors of downtown Bankers Hall on Saturday afternoon. After about two hours a crowd estimated to be between 300 and 500 people marched to Olympic Plaza, where several vowed to camp out over the weekend Police said there were no arrests. The demonstrators had remained peaceful.

...

The event in Calgary — not normally a hotbed of left wing politics — drew students, workers and poverty advocates on Saturday afternoon.“There’s a high disparity between the rich and the poor in Calgary,” said SAIT journalism student Sarah Pynoo, 19. “We’re one of the richest cities in North America, but we have enormous homelessness problems. And there are thousands of people living below the poverty line and that’s worrying.”

...

Some protesters tried to draw awareness to investment fraud issues in Alberta.

Edited October 16, 2011 by jacee

[blueblood]

http://m.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/occupy-protests-under-way-across-canada/article2202234/?service=mobile.

Chelsea Taylor, who is part of the Occupy Edmonton movement, Alberta’s oil industry is dictating government policy. “Oil might run your car, but it really shouldn’t run your government,” Ms. Taylor said.

Yet oil is keeping canada's economy afloat, lots of work out there.

[jacee]

I wonder what the protestors have to say about this...

Cbc

I see people getting better and better off...

All people? ... or a few.

You do see the problem ...

[blueblood]

All people? ... or a few.

You do see the problem ...

More and more people becoming millionaires is a problem???

Last time I checked, that's a society becoming richer as a whole.

[jacee]

Yet oil is keeping canada's economy afloat, lots of work out there.

Corruption is a problem... CARSON ring a bell? Millions in taxpayer money spent on oil advertising.

[blueblood]

Corruption is a problem... CARSON ring a bell? Millions in taxpayer money spent on oil advertising.

You guys have the cbc, and we have energy production. One creates wealth and one is a money pit. I can look at the numbers of Bell media and the other publicly traded energy companies, yet I can't look at the numbers of the CBC, who's corrupt now?

Is this actual checks being handed out, or is this "lower tax rate" opportunity cost technicality spending?

[jacee]

More and more people becoming millionaires is a problem???

Last time I checked, that's a society becoming richer as a whole.

Do you know what income disparity means?

A few get richer, the vast majority get poorer.

And that's what's happening.

I just get a feeling that the rich will keep up thhat ignorance pretense until ...

"OMG! Nobody's buying my junk! Where did all the consumers go? The government better bail us out!"

And I'll bet you can guess what we'll say to you then, eh?

[jacee]

You guys have the cbc, and we have energy production. One creates wealth and one is a money pit. I can look at the numbers of Bell media and the other publicly traded energy companies, yet I can't look at the numbers of the CBC, who's corrupt now?

Is this actual checks being handed out, or is this "lower tax rate" opportunity cost technicality spending?

I posted the link to the CBC numbers a few days ago when some other lazy rich person whined about that. It's on their website ... annual report. So's the wheat board.

Find them yourself. I charge big bucks for doing people's research.

[Guest Derek L]

Well went downtown today with my son, nephew and their friend to check out the “revolution”…….pretty uneventful……We listened to a couple speeches……same old, same old………Outcry for the money spent on the Skytrain extension to the Airport, when it should have went towards housing for the homeless……University students complaining about tuition and the results of the last few elections…….Other groups complaining about the (lack of) investigation for missing female drug addicts and prostitutes in the downtown Eastside……..others about the old growth forests and the Olympics……..Then Unions and the rights being taken away from the Air Canada staff…..the list goes on…….As far as I know, no violence or windows smashed (They did screw up traffic) and by the reports I heard on CKNW, the Occupy Vancouver group was estimated at it’s peak to reach around 4000.……..

In other local news, when BC Place opened last month after it’s major renovation, over 40000 attended to watch the Lions vs. Eskimos………

Time to start sleeping in the bunker the boy and I built in the backyard

Edited October 16, 2011 by Derek L

[jacee]

Well went downtown today with my son, nephew and their friend to check out the “revolution”…….pretty uneventful……We listened to a couple speeches……same old, same old………Outcry for the money spent on the Skytrain extension to the Airport, when it should have went towards housing for the homeless……University students complaining about tuition and the results of the last few elections…….Other groups complaining about the (lack of) investigation for missing female drug addicts and prostitutes in the downtown Eastside……..others about the old growth forests and the Olympics……..Then Unions and the rights being taken away from the Air Canada staff…..the list goes on…….As far as I know, no violence or windows smashed (They did screw up traffic) and by the reports I heard on CKNW, the Occupy Vancouver group was estimated at it’s peak to reach around 4000.……..

In other local news, when BC Place opened last month after it’s major renovation, over 40000 attended to watch the Lions vs. Eskimos………

Time to start sleeping in the bunker the boy and I built in the backyard

Sounds fun.

48 ANCOUVER(NEWS1130) They came, they built consensus for two hours, and then hit the streets to protest corporate greed and a host of other globa problems. Occupy Vancouver served up a buffet of issues ...

With the rules set down, speaker after speaker used an electronic microphone to rail against corporate bailouts, climate change and the Harper government.

"It's about getting corporations and banks to pay the same as everyone else does...a fair taxation system!" shouted one organizer.

So they're camped ...

[Guest Derek L]

Sounds fun.

48 ANCOUVER(NEWS1130) They came, they built consensus for two hours, and then hit the streets to protest corporate greed and a host of other globa problems. Occupy Vancouver served up a buffet of issues ...

With the rules set down, speaker after speaker used an electronic microphone to rail against corporate bailouts, climate change and the Harper government.

"It's about getting corporations and banks to pay the same as everyone else does...a fair taxation system!" shouted one organizer.

So they're camped ...

Wasn't watching the local news, but heard it from the other room, about twenty tents set-up in front of the art gallery........

It wasn't all bad....we then went and saw eXtreme Dinosaurs at IMAX

Edited October 16, 2011 by Derek L

[Guest American Woman]

Very well said.

I also don't understand the mentality of these people.

Thank you, and we certainly aren't the only ones. There's so much confusion as to what they want or how they expect to accomplish it by their "occupation."

Yaron Brook, president of Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights -

"They're hooking into a certain resentment that is legitimate on this crony capitalism that clearly exists. Instead of going to rally in Washington to stop the politicians from forcing this crony capitalism, they're going to the wrong people. These people don't have a clue."

I know people who worked much harder than me through high school and university, taking very little time to go out and party. They graduated with little debt and good jobs and were buying multiple properties within a couple years. I went out every weekend spending $50-100, didn't work, and lived off student loans and my credit card. Then I had to bust my ass after graduating to get a decent job, pay off my debt, and to start investing. Why should I get to relax for 4-5yrs of university and expect the same financial outcomes as people who studied harder than me while working part-time and forgoing partying?

Exactly. I enjoyed my university years too, did my fair share of partying and traveling, and took responsibility for it - and likely wouldn't do things any differently if I had it to do over again. We are all at different places in life in large part because we all have different priorities, different experiences, and make different choices. For some, making as much money as they can is the goal - while for others it's working as little as possible to afford them the time to engage in as many different experiences as possible.

I'm not 6'8", 260lbs of athleticism so I don't think I should be entitled to the money people pay to go watch Lebron play basketball. I don't see how it is fair to take more of his excessive income and redistribute it for "the greater good"? Why not just put all the big athletic blacks in a cage in the state circus and make people pay admission to watch them? Pay them each a "fair" $150,000/yr and use the rest of the admission to pay for everyone's health care for the greater good! They just inherited their genes like some people inherited their wealth right?

Evidently it's just the CEO's that are scum. Except for Jobs. Apparently.

They call themselves the 99%, so if 99% of the people are in the same boat, who is "squeezing out the middle class?" 1% of the population? To me the fact that only 1% falls into this category speaks for the fluke that it is. What really kills me, too, is to see millionaires like Susan Sarandon and Michael Moore belittling the system, complaining about the 1%. Methinks they've enjoyed a few perks that the rest of us haven't. But yeah, they're just one of us.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. As idyllic as it sounds to take from the rich and give to the poor, it's not the least bit fair in a "free" society.

Absolutely. Especially when it's not all black and white, as we've been saying. Some people apparently think they should have it all - at the expense and sweat of other people - people who made choices and sacrifices that they wouldn't make. There is more to life than money, and I, for one, value having the time to do things that I enjoy doing over the stress that comes with working my life away and not having time to enjoy the money sitting in the bank.

[capricorn]

same old, same old………Outcry for the money spent on the Skytrain extension to the Airport, when it should have went towards housing for the homeless……University students complaining about tuition and the results of the last few elections…….Other groups complaining about the (lack of) investigation for missing female drug addicts and prostitutes in the downtown Eastside……..others about the old growth forests and the Olympics……..Then Unions and the rights being taken away from the Air Canada staff…

The occupy movement is leaderless and as yet, not put forward demands to repair what it perceives as wrong with the system. The result is a vacuum begging to be filled and there are plenty of groups moving in to occupy the occupy movement.

The problem is, politics abhors a vacuum. In the absence of leaders or goals, people with agendas move in to fill the void.

Not so long ago, the Tea Party in the U.S. began as a loose assortment of right-wing libertarians. Within a year, it became a functioning arm of the Republican Party.

The danger for Occupy Wall Street for the moment, along with any of its laudatory if naive aims, is co-optation by left-of-centre political parties or organizations.

This process has already started. Late last week in Winnipeg, former city council candidate Louise May, who finished second to Justin Swandel in St. Norbert in 2010, issued a press release on behalf of "Occupy Winnipeg," claiming to be in solidarity with the New York-spawned movement.

According to May, the goal of protests planned for Saturday was to bring attention to a laundry list of "issues of economic justice," including First Nations housing, child poverty, changes to the Canadian Wheat Board, global trade deals and the cause of choice for less-informed Winnipeg leftie activists: the notion environmental consulting firm Veolia is cooking up a secret deal with the city.

All of this is standard-issue, Protest 101. But the most telling part of May's memo is the last line, where she offers media outlets the opportunity to interview organizers.

"Both general and issue-specific spokespersons are available for comment," she helpfully advises.

Never mind the allegedly leaderless and non-issue-specific protest movement. There's a bandwagon to not just jump, but commandeer.

While the Occupy movement could use some specific goals, it may already be too late for its most idealistic participants to avoid an occupation of their own.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/columnists/occupy-movements-anarchy-could-spell-its-doom-131939733.html

[jacee]

More and more people becoming millionaires is a problem???

Last time I checked, that's a society becoming richer as a whole.

I've been pondering this post of blueblood's, with its apparently naive assumption ... or rationalization of choice ... that if some people are getting wealthier, everybody is benefitting: They're not.

Wealth is increasing only at the top, BECAUSE it's being taken away from the middle and lower income people.

A US perspective on the problem:

Over the last 30 years, while the rich have been getting richer, the poor have been getting steadily poorer. One reason for the growing disparity between the rich and the poor is the fact that most new jobs that are created pay low wages and often do not offer retirement plans or health coverage. Here is a graphic look at the widening gap between the nation's rich and poor.

http://www.businesspundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/wealth_distro.jpg

(Anybody know how I can post this pic here? It's worth a thousand words.)

An attempt to show you ...

Average income of

the highest 20% (*)

and lowest 20% (#)

......2008..........1980

$200,000

--

.............*

-

-

-

--

-....................................*

-

-...........#

......................................#

--

$0

The income disparity is slightly smaller in Canada, BUT it is currently increasing faster than in the US.

The 'graph' is stretched because I had to stretch the bottom to show the miniscule increase in the lowest income group, in proportion to the huge gain by the highest income group.

This isn't just an intellectual or political exercise: The working people are truly hurting, unable to feed, house and clothe their kids adequately. Malnourished children don't learn well because their brains aren't fuelled properly. Malnourished children's brains develop poorly and it's permanent: YOU CAN'T FIX THEM LATER 'WHEN THE ECONOMY IMPROVES' !!

The rich can weather a 50% loss of income and not go hungry. The low income workers are already bouncing off the floor: Any decrease has serious effects on their health.

That's the bottom line: What level of income can support the healthy growth and development of children, and the health (work energy, motivation) of adults?

Welfare doesn't.

Low wage jobs don't.

Workers are increasingly unhealthy.

Middle class students graduating university with huge debt and low wage or no jobs often eat a diet of rice and beans. Malaise, depression, despair, and a downward spiral in motivation and energy are their reality now too. Their parents may have jobs/pensions, but they can't support adult children too.

50% of university students have wealthy parents who pay their way, partying and 'spring break' holidays down south and all. For the other 50% it's an entirely different world of poor nutrition, low wage jobs to pay their way and spiralling debt.

The ones who will survive are those who are angry enough to overcome the malaise that is poverty, inform themselves and put their energy toward change.

They are the occupiers ... everywhere.

They are right.

They are getting screwed by the wealthy.

Edited October 16, 2011 by jacee

[capricorn]

(Anybody know how I can post this pic here?

You can't. Posting images is not allowed.

[bush_cheney2004]

I've been pondering this post of blueblood's, with its apparently naive assumption ... or rationalization of choice ... that if some people are getting wealthier, everybody is benefitting: They're not.

Everybody is all inclusive....because of government entitlement programs, welfare, housing assistance, extended unemployment, and other state and local programs, the poor and not so poor have benefited. It is simply untrue that only the uber rich have made such gains.

Oh, and thanks for the "US perspective"!

[Shady]

I just get a feeling that the rich will keep up thhat ignorance pretense until ...

"OMG! Nobody's buying my junk! Where did all the consumers go? The government better bail us out!"

And I'll bet you can guess what we'll say to you then, eh?

I actually agree. I'm assuming you're against the car industry bailouts too right?

Anyways, Canada's energy industry provides billions of dollars in tax revenue that make our healthcare system and education funding possible. You'd better start thanking them.

[Guest American Woman]

I just get a feeling that the rich will keep up thhat ignorance pretense until ...

"OMG! Nobody's buying my junk! Where did all the consumers go?

That's the point some of us have been making; that not buying their products would be a more effective "protest" than occupying Wall Street - while obviously being in possession of said products.

indeed.

[Shady]

Wealth is increasing only at the top, BECAUSE it's being taken away from the middle and lower income people.

Complete and utter nonsense. Some wealth amoungst the middle class has disappeared because of the current recession. Brought upon by idiotic government poilicy that lowered mortgage standards as to push home ownership for the same middle and lower income people that you're speaking of. In other words, it's people like you that have directly and negitively impacted the same people you claim to care about. After the mess your type has cause, it's best you get out of the way, and let others fix the massive problems you've created.

[jacee]

You can't. Posting images is not allowed.

Thanks cap.

I suspected so.

The visual is primitive but makes the point.

[jacee]

Everybody is all inclusive....because of government entitlement programs, welfare, housing assistance, extended unemployment, and other state and local programs, the poor and not so poor have benefited. It is simply untrue that only the uber rich have made such gains.

Oh, and thanks for the "US perspective"!

Oh all of that is included in the miniscule gains of the lowest income group.

You'll have to provide evidence for your spin. You're lying.

[maple_leafs182]

The US has more "corporatism" and more opportunity than in Canada. How do you reconcile this given the above?

I am not sure that your country has much more opportunity or corporatism. If it has more opportunity it would be because you have more of a capitalistic society.

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh all of that is included in the miniscule gains of the lowest income group.

Technically, their entitlement gains would be larger as a percentage of very low or nonexistent income over many years. Since you are obsessed with the "US perspective" instead of Canada's, here is a peek at the growth of non-discretionary spending on entitlement programs:

http://www.heritage.org/budgetchartbook/entitlements-historical-tax-levels

It is a lie to say all of the gains have gone to the uber rich or 1%....wait...no...it's just stupid to say that. Thank you.