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Islamification of Toronto?


Shwa

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1 hour ago, Machjo said:

Who cares about race?

Well, maybe you don't give a chit about your race but others like me do. There were many races created by what or whomever and I can only assume that the reason for that is what they call diversity. A variety of birds and animals makes life different and interesting to look at. A variety of races also makes the world more diverse and interesting as long as those races stay in and on their own lands and not invade others. Unfortunately, that has not happened. The races are mixing themselves up too much together and that is not good for any race of people. Just saying. 

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1 hour ago, Machjo said:

I wasn't blaming 'whitey' for anything. I'm well aware that plenty of whites are quite welcoming of other races just as some non-whites can be quite prejudiced against whites. I wasn't thinking of whites at all. I was just thinking of you, thinking that maybe you walk around with a Nazi flag pin on your lapel that might explain some of the behaviour towards you? How do you explain that I as a minority white man in my local neighbourhood have generally been well received whereas you appear to have been chased out of every comunity you've ever moved into?

The behaviour I receive from others are coming from rather ignorant people who refuse to believe that I have my own opinion on race and that their problem is that they do not like nor are willing to accept my opinion. Thus I get called names such as Nazi and a white supremo. It's just water off my back. Their liberal communist insults and attacks won't chase me away.

No, I am not one of those people who go around wearing Nazi pins or pointed hats. But do you go around wearing a pin with the hammer and sickle on it or cover your face up at your Antifa rally riots? 

Well, isn't that really nice that new or old non-western foreigners to Canada welcome and are receiving of you generally well in your own what once was a white western neighborhood. Now that is a laugh. They are welcoming of you and are allowing you to live with them. How nice of them. And nope, I have not been chased out of my community yet but I suspect that it could happen one day in Canada. Hey, you never know? :D

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36 minutes ago, taxme said:

Well, maybe you don't give a chit about your race but others like me do. There were many races created by what or whomever and I can only assume that the reason for that is what they call diversity. A variety of birds and animals makes life different and interesting to look at. A variety of races also makes the world more diverse and interesting as long as those races stay in and on their own lands and not invade others. Unfortunately, that has not happened. The races are mixing themselves up too much together and that is not good for any race of people. Just saying. 

Then marry within your own race. No one is forcing you to marry outside of your race last I checked.

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18 hours ago, Machjo said:

Now I do agree with cities putting a stop to suburban sprawl. We should focus instead on cities growing up, not out. But beyond that though, I see nothing wrong with people moving close to their language community. That's quite normal in fact.

But why move to another country if you don't want to integrate? My sister, who's been living in the U.S. for decades, asked me this when visiting Toronto a while back. While on a shopping excursion with a friend she noticed women wearing traditional ethnic garb and conversing among themselves in their native language(s). Living in a large U.S. city with a significant Asian immigrant population, she was surprised by this. "Our immigrants want to become like Americans" she noted, pointing out that this didn't appear to be the case in Canada. Who would move to another country and not learn or use the local language? I wouldn't move to Germany or Italy without learning German or Italian and even were I to consider moving to Quebec or France I would brush up on my underused and now very shoddy French language skills. Integration is a matter both of functionality and respect.

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15 minutes ago, turningrite said:

But why move to another country if you don't want to integrate? My sister, who's been living in the U.S. for decades, asked me this when visiting Toronto a while back. While on a shopping excursion with a friend she noticed women wearing traditional ethnic garb and conversing among themselves in their native language(s). Living in a large U.S. city with a significant Asian immigrant population, she was surprised by this. "Our immigrants want to become like Americans" she noted, pointing out that this didn't appear to be the case in Canada. Who would move to another country and not learn or use the local language? I wouldn't move to Germany or Italy without learning German or Italian and even were I to consider moving to Quebec or France I would brush up on my underused and now very shoddy French language skills. Integration is a matter both of functionality and respect.

You haven't read much of Toronto's history, have you? Germans originally ploughed what we now call Yonge street. And let's consider Canada's history. Chinuk Wawa served as the dominant auxiliary language in British Columbia until around 1900. Even today, Inuktitut remains the dominant language in Nunavut. So when did English ever serve as the sole language for the whole of Canada?

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23 minutes ago, Machjo said:

So when did English ever serve as the sole language for the whole of Canada?

Internationally, English is a pretty important language to learn.  It's one of the official languages of Canada, despite pockets of population that speak mainly another language.

As a personal anecdote - my ex-MIL immigrated to Canada from Italy in the '50's and never learned much English.  She was a stay-at-home mom to 6 kids and mostly just hung around other Italians.  It probably didn't affect her life too much until her children started marrying Canadian English-speaking spouses and they started having English-speaking children.  It was sad that she couldn't communicate much with her grandchildren.  I could tell it held her back socially, too, the longer she was in Canada.

If immigrants choose to not learn the language, not integrate into Canadian life and only hang out within their own ethnic group, that's their choice.  But you don't get to whine about not being accepted by Canadians then.  I'm not saying one or the other is  right or wrong.  It's just the way it is.

Edited by Goddess
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9 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Internationally, English is a pretty important language to learn.  It's one of the official languages of Canada, despite pockets of population that speak mainly another language.

As a personal anecdote - my ex-MIL immigrated to Canada from Italy in the '50's and never learned much English.  She was a stay-at-home mom to 6 kids and mostly just hung around other Italians.  It probably didn't affect her life too much until her children started marrying Canadian English-speaking spouses and they started having English-speaking children.  It was sad that she couldn't communicate much with her grandchildren.  I could tell it held her back socially, too, the longer she was in Canada.

If immigrants choose to not learn the language, not integrate into Canadian life and only hang out within their own ethnic group, that's their choice.  But you don't get to whine about not being accepted by Canadians then.  I'm not saying one or the other is  right or wrong.  It's just the way it is.

I doubt many 'choose' to not learn English. Studies do show that English spelling is around three times more difficult to learn than those of Finnish, German, and Greek and English overall is around ten times more difficult to learn than Esperanto for instance as a basis for comparison. People understand the importance of English and so do try to learn it; but due to its difficulty, it can take time for them to learn it and so adjusting to work and do business in a language that they already know in the mean time is a natural survival mechanism. Not everyone has the necessary aptitude to learn a difficult language well.

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2 hours ago, Machjo said:

You haven't read much of Toronto's history, have you? Germans originally ploughed what we now call Yonge street. And let's consider Canada's history. Chinuk Wawa served as the dominant auxiliary language in British Columbia until around 1900. Even today, Inuktitut remains the dominant language in Nunavut. So when did English ever serve as the sole language for the whole of Canada?

Oh, come on. What what happened to German in Toronto and indigenous languages in B.C.? That's really the salient issue. Those who spoke such minority languages integrated into an English-dominated milieu, and probably pretty quickly, as was entirely predictable. I grew up and went to school in an area featuring multiple ethnicities and languages other than English, including French (my paternal grandfather's language), Polish, German, Dutch and Russian. Whatever the languages spoken at home, everybody spoke English in public and at school. Outside of Quebec and a few isolated pockets elsewhere in Canada, where French and perhaps in some cases indigenous languages prevail, English is the overwhelmingly the dominant language of general discourse in Canada, as it is in the United States. It is also, clearly, the dominant language of popular culture and integration. And it's not like, say, Swedish, Finnish or many other languages that are spoken by relatively few people around the globe. In addition to being the most widely spoken European "mother" tongue, English is the most widely taught and learned second language on the planet. So, it's hardly an unreasonable expectation that immigrants who move here should know or learn it, just as Quebec quite fairly expects its immigrants to learn French. Acquiring and maintaining locally dominant language skills is, as I said earlier, a matter of both functional (i.e. economic) integration and respect. And, as English is the interlocutory language that promotes social cohesion among people from multiple linguistic and cultural backgrounds in most of Canada outside of Quebec, it's not a 'nice to have' but instead is a necessity. It discredits Canada's form of open-ended multiculturalism that we've lost sight of this.

Edited by turningrite
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2 hours ago, Machjo said:

I doubt many 'choose' to not learn English. Studies do show that English spelling is around three times more difficult to learn than those of Finnish, German, and Greek and English overall is around ten times more difficult to learn than Esperanto for instance as a basis for comparison. People understand the importance of English and so do try to learn it; but due to its difficulty, it can take time for them to learn it and so adjusting to work and do business in a language that they already know in the mean time is a natural survival mechanism. Not everyone has the necessary aptitude to learn a difficult language well.

You're clearly not familiar with the emerging sociology of 'ethnoburbs', are you? It's becoming increasingly clear that the emergence of this model of linguistic, cultural and religious segregation is impeding the integration of immigrants into Canadian society. A fairly recent federal government analysis, reported on in the media after it was obtained via an access to information request, confirmed as much. (Link below.) Shockingly, the analysis notes that close to a third of students requiring ESL training in one Toronto area school board were born in Canada, suggesting that such children are afforded little or no contact with or exposure to children outside of their own cultural communities. There's a lot of criticism of the Canadian host society on grounds that it's supposedly xenophobic and impedes the social and economic integration of newcomers. But I think much of this criticism is artificial as the Canadian form of multiculturalism itself increasingly promotes segregation and therefore impedes integration and acceptance. Perhaps English is difficult to learn, however, it is the most widely taught and learned second (and probably third and fourth) language on the planet. If people don't know it or don't want to learn it, or French if moving to Quebec, perhaps immigrating to Canada isn't a good plan for them. If I were to move to Germany only to figure out that I couldn't learn German, which according to friends who've studied the language is also difficult to learn, I think I'd leave even though English is fairly widely spoken in Germany.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-canada-struggling-to-absorb-immigrants-internal-report-says

Edited by turningrite
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2 hours ago, turningrite said:

You're clearly not familiar with the emerging sociology of 'ethnoburbs', are you? It's becoming increasingly clear that the emergence of this model of linguistic, cultural and religious segregation is impeding the integration of immigrants into Canadian society. A fairly recent federal government study, reported on in the media after it was obtained via an access to information request, confirmed as much. (Link below.) Shockingly, the report indicates that close to a third of students requiring ESL training in one Toronto area school board were born in Canada, suggesting that such children are afforded little or no contact with or exposure to children outside of their own cultural communities. There's a lot of criticism of the host society in Canada on grounds that it's supposedly xenophobic and impedes the social and economic integration of newcomers. But I think much of this criticism is artificial as Canadian multicultural itself increasingly promotes segregation and therefore impedes integration. Perhaps English is difficult to learn, however, it is the most widely taught and learned second (and probably third and fourth as well) language on the planet. If people don't know it or don't want to learn it, or French if moving to Quebec, perhaps immigrating to Canada isn't a good plan for them. If I were to move to Germany only to find out that I couldn't learn German, which according to friends who've studied that language is also difficult to learn, I think I'd leave even though English is widely spoken in Germany.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-canada-struggling-to-absorb-immigrants-internal-report-says

People move abroad for all kinds of reasons. I first moved to China for work before knowing a word of Chinese and initially, I gravitated towards people who shared a common language with me. I learnt Chinese over time and the more I learnt it, the more I integrated into the more general community. Some move abroad or to Canada for marriage. Sometimes a person meets another through a friend or family member, or on holiday, online, etc. a relationship ensues, they realize they're compatible for one another, and then as they start to consider marriage, realize that while they may share a common language with one another, it might not be a language of one's country. In that case, they'll likely move into an 'ethno-burb.'

Now I will say though that a person should not travel abroad to collect social assistance, but as long as they are supporting themselves and paying their taxes, then let them be.

Edited by Machjo
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6 minutes ago, Machjo said:

People move abroad for all kinds of reasons. I first moved to China for work before knowing a word of Chinese and initially, I gravitated towards people who shared a common language with me. I learnt Chinese over time and the more I learnt it, the more I integrated into the more general community. Some move abroad or to Canada for marriage. Sometimes a perosn meets another through a friend or family member, or on holiday, online, etc. a relationship ensues, they realize they're compatible for one another, and then as they start to consider marriage, realize that while they may share a common language with one another, it might not be a language of one's country. In that case, they'll likely move into an 'ethno-burb.'

Now I will say though that a person should not travel abroad to collect social assistance, but as long as they are supporting themselves and paying their taxes, then let them be.

Are there foreign-language ethnoburbs in China? Just wondering? People do move for all sorts of reasons, of course, and obviously you didn't intend to remain in China permanently and no doubt had no access to government funded benefits nor to government-sponsored integration programs. In fact, as a good friend of mine who is Chinese tells me with a chuckle, the Chinese don't believe in diversity and certainly not in multiculturalism, at least not for China.

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50 minutes ago, turningrite said:

Are there foreign-language ethnoburbs in China? Just wondering? People do move for all sorts of reasons, of course, and obviously you didn't intend to remain in China permanently and no doubt had no access to government funded benefits nor to government-sponsored integration programs. In fact, as a good friend of mine who is Chinese tells me with a chuckle, the Chinese don't believe in diversity and certainly not in multiculturalism, at least not for China.

China does have ethno-burbs, and huge ones at that. The largest one is the Han one, but there are also Tibetan, Uighur, Zhuang, Korean, Kazakh, Russian, and many other ones too. Most are huge, covering entire prefectures or even provinces, but small ones exist too. I remember how in Hefei (predominantly Han Chinese and surrounded by predomiantly Han cities and even provinces), there was a small Muslim quarter that was mostly Uighur though it contained Hui too.

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22 hours ago, Machjo said:

Then marry within your own race. No one is forcing you to marry outside of your race last I checked.

I did marry within my own race in order to help keep my race from going minority in my own homeland. :D

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6 hours ago, turningrite said:

But why move to another country if you don't want to integrate? My sister, who's been living in the U.S. for decades, asked me this when visiting Toronto a while back. While on a shopping excursion with a friend she noticed women wearing traditional ethnic garb and conversing among themselves in their native language(s). Living in a large U.S. city with a significant Asian immigrant population, she was surprised by this. "Our immigrants want to become like Americans" she noted, pointing out that this didn't appear to be the case in Canada. Who would move to another country and not learn or use the local language? I wouldn't move to Germany or Italy without learning German or Italian and even were I to consider moving to Quebec or France I would brush up on my underused and now very shoddy French language skills. Integration is a matter both of functionality and respect.

It's funny how your sister noticed this right away and yet not too many Canadians do when it is so bloody obvious to her. Canada is not a melting pot anymore but is fast becoming more like non Canada these days. O, the joys of diversity and multiculturalism. :rolleyes:

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22 minutes ago, taxme said:

It's funny how your sister noticed this right away and yet not too many Canadians do when it is so bloody obvious to her. Canada is not a melting pot anymore but is fast becoming more like non Canada these days. O, the joys of diversity and multiculturalism. :rolleyes:

In what way is Canada becoming 'less Canadian?'

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59 minutes ago, Machjo said:

In what way is Canada becoming 'less Canadian?'

Canada is fast becoming a less western looking country these days. Have you been to a mall in Toronto or Vancouver or Montreal lately? One would think that they were visiting some mall in some non western country. There are many cities in Canada today where the British/European founders of Canada are now in the minority. Do I need to say more? Do you not think that with all of this massive non western immigration going on into Canada every year that Canada will remain a western looking country for much longer? C'mon, give your head a shake. :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, taxme said:

Canada is fast becoming a less western looking country these days. Have you been to a mall in Toronto or Vancouver or Montreal lately? One would think that they were visiting some mall in some non western country. There are many cities in Canada today where the British/European founders of Canada are now in the minority. Do I need to say more? Do you not think that with all of this massive non western immigration going on into Canada every year that Canada will remain a western looking country for much longer? C'mon, give your head a shake. :rolleyes:

So if I understand you correctly, you equate Canadian with Victorian British? How would an indigenous Canadian ever fit that mold? So if I understand you correctly, unless a person is ethnically British, you will refuse to recognize him as Canadian. So, how is he supposed to become more Canadian? Whiten his face, wear khakis, and drink Earl Grey and play cricket?

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6 hours ago, Machjo said:

China does have ethno-burbs, and huge ones at that. The largest one is the Han one, but there are also Tibetan, Uighur, Zhuang, Korean, Kazakh, Russian, and many other ones too. Most are huge, covering entire prefectures or even provinces, but small ones exist too. I remember how in Hefei (predominantly Han Chinese and surrounded by predomiantly Han cities and even provinces), there was a small Muslim quarter that was mostly Uighur though it contained Hui too.

I believe that 92 percent of China's population is ethnically Han. That's actually not reflective of much diversity. And it's also my understanding that minorities are expected to conform to majority customs, laws and expectations. Witness the treatment of its Tibetan and Muslim Uyghur minorities, as illustrated in the links below. My strong suspicion is that China has few lessons to teach the West about either diversity or multiculturalism.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/world/asia/china-tibet-language-education.html

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-globe-editorial-chinas-denials-about-mistreating-the-uyghurs-are/

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6 hours ago, turningrite said:

I believe that 92 percent of China's population is ethnically Han. That's actually not reflective of much diversity. And it's also my understanding that minorities are expected to conform to majority customs, laws and expectations. Witness the treatment of its Tibetan and Muslim Uyghur minorities, as illustrated in the links below. My strong suspicion is that China has few lessons to teach the West about either diversity or multiculturalism.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/29/world/asia/china-tibet-language-education.html

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-globe-editorial-chinas-denials-about-mistreating-the-uyghurs-are/

China is also a one-party state, so it doesn't necessarily reflect the will of the Chinese people, but of the CCP.

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3 hours ago, Machjo said:

China is also a one-party state, so it doesn't necessarily reflect the will of the Chinese people, but of the CCP.

Perhaps. But as a Chinese friend has told me, its society is very nationalistic and views homogeneity and conformity as virtues rather than vices. The preferences for conformity and order are apparently ages old and grounded in Chinese history and tradition, including Confucianism. My friend can't get his head around the Western preference for open political opposition and disruption. He was raised to believe that in times of turmoil one puts one's head down, keeps on working and waits to be told by those in charge what to do.

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On 1/4/2019 at 2:15 PM, turningrite said:

Oh, come on. What what happened to German in Toronto and indigenous languages in B.C.? That's really the salient issue. Those who spoke such minority languages integrated into an English-dominated milieu, and probably pretty quickly, as was entirely predictable. I grew up and went to school in an area featuring multiple ethnicities and languages other than English, including French (my paternal grandfather's language), Polish, German, Dutch and Russian. Whatever the languages spoken at home, everybody spoke English in public and at school. Outside of Quebec and a few isolated pockets elsewhere in Canada, where French and perhaps in some cases indigenous languages prevail, English is the overwhelmingly the dominant language of general discourse in Canada, as it is in the United States. It is also, clearly, the dominant language of popular culture and integration. And it's not like, say, Swedish, Finnish or many other languages that are spoken by relatively few people around the globe. In addition to being the most widely spoken European "mother" tongue, English is the most widely taught and learned second language on the planet. So, it's hardly an unreasonable expectation that immigrants who move here should know or learn it, just as Quebec quite fairly expects its immigrants to learn French. Acquiring and maintaining locally dominant language skills is, as I said earlier, a matter of both functional (i.e. economic) integration and respect. And, as English is the interlocutory language that promotes social cohesion among people from multiple linguistic and cultural backgrounds in most of Canada outside of Quebec, it's not a 'nice to have' but instead is a necessity. It discredits Canada's form of open-ended multiculturalism that we've lost sight of this.

The Government of Canada reneged on its promise to give land to those Germans after their work, so they perished. As for Chinook Wawa, it remained the dominant language for a time after the establishment of the residential school system and the Chinese Exclusion Act but Wawa did begin its slow decline after that.

Edited by Machjo
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17 hours ago, Machjo said:

So if I understand you correctly, you equate Canadian with Victorian British? How would an indigenous Canadian ever fit that mold? So if I understand you correctly, unless a person is ethnically British, you will refuse to recognize him as Canadian. So, how is he supposed to become more Canadian? Whiten his face, wear khakis, and drink Earl Grey and play cricket?

We are a British/European country and that is being changed and on purpose I might add to appear to look more like a  non western looking country in the future. And that is what I am fighting against from happening. When 80 - 85% of our new immigrants are coming from non western countries, which has been happening since old man Trudeau became the PM way back when is white racial suicide plain and simple. Does Canada need over 4 hundred thousand new immigrants every year to keep running? NO. The bigger the population becomes the more services the country will need and more land consumed. That is all that massive immigration has to offer. Are you starting to get the picture yet? 

The Indians were here first and they are Canadian citizen's and there is nothing that can be done about that nor should there be anything done to change that. The problem with the Indians is that they just cannot seem to want to stop whining and crying about how hard they were done by in the past. They refuse to get over the past and that is their problem. The past is gone and cannot be changed today. Stop blaming me for your problems when I had nothing to do with that. The Indians just need to shut up for gawd sake's and get on with life. 

If one immigrates to Canada legally then they should be expected to become Canadian and practice and take up Canadian culture and not try to keep their own. As I already said, why come to Canada if all immigrants want to do is carry on with their culture here in Canada like they did back home. It's bloody stupid. If they want to carry on with their culture than keep it at home but don't parade it outside like so many non western immigrants are doing today. Flaunting their culture on the rest of the British/European population of Canada. All you have to do is go check out on You tube for yourself to see as to what multiculturalism can lead too and is doing to Britain and the rest of Europe with Muslims. Give them an inch and they take a mile. 

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