Sir Bandelot Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I doubt if all sexual deviants identify themselves primarily by their sexuality. But gay people definitely do not. Gay is like a culture, and many gay people strongly identify with that culture. What it means is, they prefer gay barbers, gay doctors and dentists, etc. Of course, that is not to say ALL are embedded in the culture bloodyminded. It does not mean they exclude themselves from interaction with non-gays. But the person who is gay had to go through some difficulty in accepting it, and eventually coming out since there is such a latent hostility toward gays even now. How easy is it to tell ones Dad that you are gay, for example. Identifying the self with the gay community must be a difficult transition. Once made, it's naturally easier to hang out with other gays so they can relax and... be gay. That is only my personal observation. For the Hetero, who is by nature readily accepted on that fact, sexual identity is not such a challenging issue. Seems to me that says, the whole question of sexuality takes on a less important role in daily life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Gay is like a culture, and many gay people strongly identify with that culture. What it means is, they prefer gay barbers, gay doctors and dentists, etc. Of course, that is not to say ALL are embedded in the culture bloodyminded. It does not mean they exclude themselves from interaction with non-gays. But the person who is gay had to go through some difficulty in accepting it, and eventually coming out since there is such a latent hostility toward gays even now. How easy is it to tell ones Dad that you are gay, for example. Identifying the self with the gay community must be a difficult transition. Once made, it's naturally easier to hang out with other gays so they can relax and... be gay. That is only my personal observation. For the Hetero, who is by nature readily accepted on that fact, sexual identity is not such a challenging issue. Seems to me that says, the whole question of sexuality takes on a less important role in daily life. You have got that wrong - most do not perfere gay doctors or dentist or sexual conquests that are gay...from what I have heard the dream of most gays it to seduce a straight male - The find them more attractive . Where we get this idea that they are only attracted to their own ...is a myth. Why is it that the unattractive lesbians commonly known as super butch or diesel dykes - hate men...but try to look like them...and other lesbians like men but perfer woman? How come a lot of lesbians are butt ugly - and could not get a man even if they wanted one? Why are the majority of common gays real homely and unattractive geeks who could not be with a woman and take anything they can get their hands on ? While there are also those that look like their mothers who were fashion models and prance about totally self absorbed and worshipping in the mirror...and behave like woman that are not quite woman - Then there is the gay by lazy bitter choice - big masculine men who pair up with a small femalish male? Seems to be all types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Well being a bigot is definitely easier. Taking the time to understand people who appear to be difficult can be tedious and take a lot of time, as my efforts on this thread attest. I'm sorry to upset you by holding up the mirror of your own words back to you. You prefer to look at a handsome picture sitting in a store window and say 'that is me'. I'll step back and give you your own world back again ok ? There is only one world. My understanding of people is very good. What makes you Michael believe that once you understand something or someone - you become totally eccepting of them? If I understand everything it does not mean I will like everything. The only effort you have shown is one of trying to convert me to blind and mindless ecceptance of thing and people that I perfere not to fully accept...and why should I? You don't upset me and as for your mirror - I have not seen one...You sure are a pushy fellow when your do-gooder liberalism is challenged. Yes my friend there is only one world - and it is what you make it - I don't like the one you are making _ IF you were gay I would be more accepting of your efforts - but you are not - so mind your own buisness first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 My understanding of people is very good. What makes you Michael believe that once you understand something or someone - you become totally eccepting of them? If I understand everything it does not mean I will like everything. The only effort you have shown is one of trying to convert me to blind and mindless ecceptance of thing and people that I perfere not to fully accept...and why should I? You don't upset me and as for your mirror - I have not seen one...You sure are a pushy fellow when your do-gooder liberalism is challenged. Yes my friend there is only one world - and it is what you make it - I don't like the one you are making _ IF you were gay I would be more accepting of your efforts - but you are not - so mind your own buisness first. Believe your premise is that I am some sort of rural hick and the base of your premise is in that silly quote "fear of the unknown" _ You seem to think if you educate me and there is no more unknown - then I will not be phobic of the unknown - I already KNOW...all your talking is not new to me. Looks like you want to be a sophisticated modern urban type - and you really want everyone to like you - Myself - I don't care if you or the world in it's present form does not like me. I am an indiviual who has always been the lone wolf...and you are a bit sheepish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 - Myself - I don't care if you or the world in it's present form does not like me. I am an indiviual who has always been the lone wolf...and you are a bit sheepish. omigod i believe i'm becoming an oleg bach fan. :-] not necessarily for the content but the delivery is occasionally entertaining. On the topic there is one good reason for including awareness of gay issues in curriculum: because of the presence of gay people and families in school communities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Gay is like a culture, and many gay people strongly identify with that culture. What it means is, they prefer gay barbers, gay doctors and dentists, etc. Is that based on any solid information, or is it some impression you've gathered from "Will and Grace"? At any rate, your attempts to paint this as plain observation is a bit disingenuous, since you compare homosexuality to pedophilia. That you find the former "as repulsive" as the latter says zero about "gayness," as you call it, and everything about your visceral, socially-conditioned response which you apparently take as a "natural" one. Edited July 20, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Is that based on any solid information, or is it some impression you've gathered from "Will and Grace"? At any rate, your attempts to paint this as plain observation is a bit disingenuous, since you compare homosexuality to pedophilia. That you find the former "as repulsive" as the latter says zero about "gayness," as you call it, and everything about your visceral, socially-conditioned response which you apparently take as a "natural" one. Frankly and in the spirit of love - personally I feel sorry for gays...really I do - I don't hate them - nor do I wish to persecute them - I simply feel sad for their state. Michael Hardner goes on and on about what a bigot I am. From his perspective I am a bigot. BUT I do have a serious question for Michael - first of all Michael is not gay and I wonder - HOW does this really concern him - these issues? The big question and I expect him too answer....IF - Michael Hardner had one son or one daughter that was born to him - IF he had a choice - or better put ...If the adult child was gay would he prefer with the wave of a wand that they were NOT gay? AND would it matter to him that if they were gay that he would NEVER become a grandfather and his genetic lineage ended for ever on the planet earth...through the non-reproduction of himself? Just an interesting question - If given the choice would it matter to Michael if his only child were gay or not? Simple - and keep the answer as black and white as possible - no dancing about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Frankly and in the spirit of love - personally I feel sorry for gays...really I do - I don't hate them - nor do I wish to persecute them - I simply feel sad for their state. Michael Hardner goes on and on about what a bigot I am. From his perspective I am a bigot. BUT I do have a serious question for Michael - first of all Michael is not gay and I wonder - HOW does this really concern him - these issues? The big question and I expect him too answer....IF - Michael Hardner had one son or one daughter that was born to him - IF he had a choice - or better put ...If the adult child was gay would he prefer with the wave of a wand that they were NOT gay? AND would it matter to him that if they were gay that he would NEVER become a grandfather and his genetic lineage ended for ever on the planet earth...through the non-reproduction of himself? Just an interesting question - If given the choice would it matter to Michael if his only child were gay or not? Simple - and keep the answer as black and white as possible - no dancing about. I can't answer for Michael, but I can speak for myself: I have three grown children, and a grandson on the way. (Days away! Can't wait.) If any of them were...ok, let's cut to the chase; we're talking primarily about male homosexuality, which bothers people a lot more. I think this is because of narrowly proscribed limits drawn on "what is masculine," a prejudice that women have more successfully navigated their way out of. So, ok, let's say my son told me he was gay. No, I wouldn't mind; and no, I wouldn't "prefer" it if he were straight. No doubt some people find this difficult to believe; they think it's the "politically correct" stance, and that, deep in my heart, I would ultimatley "prefer" a heterosexual son. Well, they're wrong. I can't help what people, especially those who don't even know me, believe to be "deep in my heart." And frankly, I think they're projecting. An awful lot of people cannot seem to imagine anything worse than not being like them. So that's my answer, 100% honest, zero disingenuousness: No. I would not care, and would not prefer my beautiful son to be other than what he is. If that included being gay, then I would love that too. Edited July 20, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 You don't upset me and as for your mirror - I have not seen one...You sure are a pushy fellow when your do-gooder liberalism is challenged. Yes my friend there is only one world - and it is what you make it - I don't like the one you are making _ IF you were gay I would be more accepting of your efforts - but you are not - so mind your own buisness first. History is made by the community, though. So I will give my opinion based on the facts, and will point out when others want to base history on their 'likes'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I can't answer for Michael, but I can speak for myself: I have three grown children, and a grandson on the way. (Days away! Can't wait.) If any of them were...ok, let's cut to the chase; we're talking primarily about male homosexuality, which bothers people a lot more. I think this is because of narrowly proscribed limits drawn on "what is masculine," a prejudice that women have more successfully navigated their way out of. So, ok, let's say my son told me he was gay. No, I wouldn't mind; and no, I wouldn't "prefer" it if he were straight. No doubt some people find this difficult to believe; they think it's the "politically correct" stance, and that, deep in my heart, I would ultimatley "prefer" a heterosexual son. Well, they're wrong. I can't help what people, especially those who don't even know me, believe to be "deep in my heart." And frankly, I think they're projecting. An awful lot of people cannot seem to imagine anything worse than not being like them. So that's my answer, 100% honest, zero disingenuousness: No. I would not care, and would not prefer my beautiful son to be other than what he is. If that included being gay, then I would love that too. It's hard to tell if you are female - but from your answer I bet you are a woman - who is much like a man - who believes that children are a clone of themselves - and if your son happened to be gay - it might just suit you fine if you happened to be a liberal mother - You could go out shopping together and live vacariously through the gay son - that is my theory on your response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 History is made by the community, though. So I will give my opinion based on the facts, and will point out when others want to base history on their 'likes'. Ah hah! "Community" -never liked that term anymore that a judge that might make a decsion on the "common good" - community to me is a sociaist term like commune - or communism...the straight community - the gay community - the fire fighting community - the arts community - I don't belong to a communmity other than mine - which is sort of at this time reminds me of that old TV show King of Kensington ...I go out into the alley and chat to all my friends - some are delievery guys - some are important and well known chefs - other are art gallery owners - some are crack heads - some are gay - some are lesbians - some are rich and some are poor - THAT IS MY community - I don't have them pigeon holed and segregated into groups or special interest groups - Maybe my sense of community is more evolved yet old fashion and superiour to your more poitically motivated "community". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 History is made by the community, though. So I will give my opinion based on the facts, and will point out when others want to base history on their 'likes'. Oh - looks like you are going to avoid my question - fine - you don't have to answer _ I don't expect you to reveal your deep and personal thoughts here...what I do see is that with you it is about keeping up a good political face - I suspect you would like to run for office these days and you are keeping your record clean and open for as many votes as possible - Now I understand your attitude - it is strickly political...THIS is another gotchya moment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 It would be fair if I were also to answer my own question: If you son was to come to me and say that he is not attracted to woman but only to males....how would I react? Yes - I would feel some tradtional disappointment in the fact that he will never have natural children - That's about it. BUT - I would continue to love him with all my heart with out restriction...because he is mine - This goes back to my favorite eastern quote...and it is about tolerance "I do not love him because he is good. I love him because he is my little child" - that is true uncondtional love! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) It's hard to tell if you are female - but from your answer I bet you are a woman - who is much like a man - who believes that children are a clone of themselves - and if your son happened to be gay - it might just suit you fine if you happened to be a liberal mother - You could go out shopping together and live vacariously through the gay son - that is my theory on your response. No, dead wrong. I'm a man. Your odd theory maybe helps to underline my point. You have difficulty imagining a man who would not be repelled by the idea that his own son was gay. But masculinity is not defined by your own person, Oleg. And by the way...your idea that a woman who didn't object to her son's being gay must be a"liberal" who wished to "live vicariously through him" and "go shopping with him"....are you friggin' serious???? Edited July 20, 2011 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Michael - rule number one - never underestimate anyone ever. You seem to believe that I am some shallow minded bigot who enjoys hating. That is not accurate - The whole idea behind my rants is in fact - That the social tweaking of adults and children and the general social engineering that goes on these days - MIGHT just NOT - create the great utopian paradise that you may invision...we really do not know what the long term out come might be and what kind of world we are creating - ALL I mean to say is that we have to proceed with care - caution and above all with some visionary wisdom. How can we possible really know for sure that the efforts of social engineers will have a good and positive results in 50 years - we might be laying the foundations for a hell and not a heaven...Sexuality and sexual identity are part of the core of humanity - to mess with it even when driven by some sort of benevolent spirit might be a mistake. That is a possiblity - I rest my case...sorry - this bigot rests his bigotry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Sorry, didn't see the question: no, I don't guess that it would bother me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 No, dead wrong. I'm a man. Your odd theory maybe helps to underline my point. You have difficulty imagining a man who would not be repelled by the idea that his own son was gay. But masculinity is not defined by your own person, Oleg. And by the way...your idea that a woman who didn't object to her son's being gay must be a"liberal" who wished to "live vicariously through him" and "go shopping with him"....are you friggin' serious???? This type of woman does exist. You see them but they are rare...lets put that aside and continue. You use the term repell or revulsion - no sane person can truely feel revulsion towards their own son or daughter no matter what the case. I was making a less strong suggestion that might be better described as a disappointment. There are barbaric cruel and useless fathers who would disown their own son for a number of reasons such as being gay...these types also do exist..but not in my case. This is not about "masculinity" ...you limit your argument and make it stero-typical...There are straight males who are very feminine. I understand and appreciate that.. nothing more prejudice than woman and men who assume that a delicate of femalish male is gay...You have seen this "Why I thought he was gay" - or if a man these days decides not to have a sexual relationship with a woman that want one will say " He must be gay" - prejudice exists in many people. One odd instance that I saw was a very beautiful and handsome man working at the liquor store...running a promotional display...I spoke to him and he took after his mother who was at one time a very attractive fashion model - Her gentic effect was very prominent in her male offspring - Later I spoke to the girl at the counter and we both commented on what a strikingly beautiful human being this young man was...and we both commented that "and he's not even gay" - What does that say about common prejudice - I am sure that the gays that came into the liquor store wished the guy was gay... Human beauty exists in males and females and beauty is attractive to everyone - but not everyone is sexually aroused or driven in that direction ...My THEORY - is that some gayness is a lot like the makeup of some straight people - IT is not about love but the selfish want and lust to possess something of beauty - and in some cases abuse that beauty...off topic - just an observation....now lets go shopping...lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Sorry, didn't see the question: no, I don't guess that it would bother me. The response is not an affirmative one..."I don't GUESS that it would bother me"...You are still skirting my biggoted inquisition...NOW anwer zeee kvestion! BUT I don't believe you will - It is becoming clear that on the net you create a record...and IF you M. Hardner ever plan to run for office _ I as your advisor suggest you do not answer the question - maybe a no comment would do..but your response is not very skilled - You are suppose to lie if you are going to be a politican...eg.....No It would have absolutely no effect on my relationship with my son...something like that.. Political statements should never contain the word "guess" - nor should any statement contain the word "I think" _ It should always be "I firmly believe" - so I am off track and off topic....we are both good people and do not wish harm on anyone..but the mass is dumb...and some will call those with different "opinions" which are "theories" bigots...It's a cheap and lazy shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g_bambino Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) So, ok, let's say my son told me he was gay.No, I wouldn't mind; and no, I wouldn't "prefer" it if he were straight. I would like to think that I could gently ascertain whether or not he was aware that "gay" and "straight" weren't the only two options available to him; I wonder, sometimes, about whether or not, and how much, young kids, especially boys, in their sexual dawn are guided by a lazy, ignorant mass media, as well as confused, angry, or indifferent parents, into believing they have to slot themselves into one of only two categories. The ability to be "flexible" (for lack of a better term) also seems to be something women have managed better, thanks, in no small part, I'm sure, to men's general acceptance - sometimes adoration - of it, as opposed to their disallowing other men to do the same. [c/e] Edited July 20, 2011 by g_bambino Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bandelot Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Well, they're wrong. I can't help what people, especially those who don't even know me, believe to be "deep in my heart." And frankly, I think they're projecting. Same goes for me, bm. No I am not visceral toward gays. That's quite an exaggeration. Disinterested, perhaps. I don't care to know if someone is gay or not. When I meet someone new, the question of their sexual orientation hardly comes to the forefront. But fact is, I do have an opinion and I know what I like, and what I don't like. Pity isn't quite the word, but I do view homosexuality as a defect. For my sake I certainly wouldn't want my kids to turn out gay. I would be disappointed, and ashamed. Yes, I admit to that. Perhaps that is a defect of mine. But, we're all human and we all have our issues to deal with. I have no malice towards gays. Anyone who uses name calling for people like me, such as bigot or homophobe, simply says to me they think they're allowed to express themselves, as being pro-gay, but I am not allowed to express myself, despite having no malicious intent. Who is the criticizer? Who is the judger? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I would like to think that I could gently bring to his attention the fact that "gay" and "straight" weren't the only two options available to him; I wonder, sometimes, about whether or not, and how much, young kids, especially boys, in their sexual dawn are guided by a lazy, ignorant mass media, as well as confused, angry, or indifferent parents, into believing they have to slot themselves into one of only two categories. The ability to be "flexible" (for lack of a better term) also seems to be something women have managed better, in no small part, I'm sure, to men's general acceptance - sometimes adoration - of it, as opposed to their disallowing other men to do the same. To attempt to manipulate or educate the young male mind on issues of sexuality...is akin to sexual interference ---which is against the law - allow nature to take it's course...I often wonder these days how many young people are gay who are not? For instance I have this nasty sister in law..who pines to get out of the system any special benefits she can - One of her sons - was classed as autistic...she loved the idea and the extra attention she and the kid would get...not to mention a cheque or two. Later it was discovered to her slight disappointment that the kid was not autistic - just artistic...so because he was the more feminine of the two brothers she insisted that he was GAY - I said to her - the kid is only 7 years old - don't do that! The kid is older now and clearly not gay - just a bit strange.....BUT if this stupid mother had her way - she and the modern school system would have led the kid down the path to gay city - to be kept there forever - this is not fair or wise- and an abuse of a child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Looks like this conversation was worth having..we filtered it through and I learned one thing - That I should be more careful about my presention - It is not useful to come across as a crazed and stupified biggot.....BUT - Just to piss of Michael a bit - I will say if I had a house party....a couple of token gays would be tolerable - but not a whole room of them...so as I make out the guest list...I will be sure to add Michael who can attend and act as the offical bigot of bigots - we should all get along just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 The response is not an affirmative one..."I don't GUESS that it would bother me"... I'm not a politician, so I don't have to answer politically. I can't say how I would feel for sure in any case, I can only postulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 I would like to think that I could gently ascertain whether or not he was aware that "gay" and "straight" weren't the only two options available to him; I wonder, sometimes, about whether or not, and how much, young kids, especially boys, in their sexual dawn are guided by a lazy, ignorant mass media, as well as confused, angry, or indifferent parents, into believing they have to slot themselves into one of only two categories. The ability to be "flexible" (for lack of a better term) also seems to be something women have managed better, thanks, in no small part, I'm sure, to men's general acceptance - sometimes adoration - of it, as opposed to their disallowing other men to do the same. [c/e] These are good points, overlooked in the either/or determinations of issues and debates generally. I agree with you about the difference in acceptance of female versus male behaviours, and I mentioned something about it earlier. Males have far stricter codes of conduct surrounding their behaviours and personas, in matters of sexuality and roles. While it's true that virtually everybody now accepts the idea of a man, say, staying home to take care of a baby (and even at 44, I remember perfectly well that this was, let's say, something to mock as "unmanly" not all that long ago) other somewhat rigid role demands remain culturally enforced, in a way that women are largely free from. (No doubt they could argue about their own peculiar restrictions, but that's another topic.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted July 20, 2011 Report Share Posted July 20, 2011 Same goes for me, bm. No I am not visceral toward gays. That's quite an exaggeration. Disinterested, perhaps. I don't care to know if someone is gay or not. When I meet someone new, the question of their sexual orientation hardly comes to the forefront. But fact is, I do have an opinion and I know what I like, and what I don't like. Pity isn't quite the word, but I do view homosexuality as a defect. For my sake I certainly wouldn't want my kids to turn out gay. I would be disappointed, and ashamed. Yes, I admit to that. Perhaps that is a defect of mine. But, we're all human and we all have our issues to deal with. I have no malice towards gays. Anyone who uses name calling for people like me, such as bigot or homophobe, simply says to me they think they're allowed to express themselves, as being pro-gay, but I am not allowed to express myself, despite having no malicious intent. Who is the criticizer? Who is the judger? I think I get what you mean, SB. I take issue with some of your points here--like the use of the word "defect," for example, which seems to me out of place in a complex culture in which ideas of what is "natural" are actually themselves often complex. Because "defect" demands an adherence to what is biologically natural for point of comparison. (For example, I would contend without blinking that rape is "natural," but we've rightfully banished it to the lower echelons of criminal behaviour.) However, I admit I originally called you exactly what you say; I even used the words "bigot" and "homophobe." But I edited them out. 20 years ago, I would have thought "disappointed" and "ashamed" to be, if not rational, at least understandable. I've lost all patience with that, it's true, but the main issue, as you say, is that of intent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.