Gay history to become required subject in California schools

[Michael Hardner]

The fight for gay rights, and the abuse gays have suffered, is "real history."

I think this is the 2nd post today where I replied before seeing your response and paraphrased you. I need to check in the mirror to make sure I haven't transformed into an American woman !

[Oleg Bach]

How is society being made worse by this, exactly?

[/quote)

Society is already worse. It is not a case of "how it is being made worse" but MORE worse. It's like asking about debached ancient Rome - How can a bit more debauchery possibly harm the existing debachery... It is a case of superiour verses inferiour...Question to the sane nose and mind...Which is the superiour and more wholesome scent? Poop on a penis - or lubcrating female secretions on a penis" This is like asking people to develope the aquired taste for shit...why should be - leave the poop sniffing to those that find it exceptable and leave the NORMS along...we are still the majority - and the norm - the majority rules...and no matter how much gay history we put forth infront of our children - The NORMS will always rule...cos - The majority is normal - that's why it is called the majority and the norm. The attempt to include those that are a minoirty into having the same social and political force as the majority is anti-democratic,

[Guest American Woman]

I think this is the 2nd post today where I replied before seeing your response and paraphrased you. I need to check in the mirror to make sure I haven't transformed into an American woman !

You should be so lucky.

[Oleg Bach]

Our population has become immigrant dependant - because we are not replaciing our selves throught breeding - any educational attempt at the desemination of information that might as much as hint at the idea of continued encouragement or slight interferance causing . more.. failure to breed is a dis service to our culture...AT this rate between feminist man hating extremism - gay promotion - and abortion - we should be extinct in 50 years and the land will be inhabited by people that are pale brown in colour and 5 feet tall - of limited intelligence. Let the kids study the history of everyone - and let the kids promote basic human rights for all - no more special interest groups wasting the minds and time of our young with more garbage that is not helpful in our survival as a people and culture.

[Michael Hardner]

Let the kids study the history of everyone - and let the kids promote basic human rights for all - no more special interest groups wasting the minds and time of our young with more garbage that is not helpful in our survival as a people and culture.

Yes, gay people are 'everyone' and 'all'. 'Special interest groups' seem to denote people you don't want to have rights. Your regular cuckoo-clock style postings generally fall by the wayside, but when one bothers to read them they still can irritate as much as a conversation with a thick necked proletariat xenophobe. And this from a purported artist too. Too bad.

Don't you worry about the survival of 'our' people. We define who is 'us' and we have defined people with different sexual practices to be part of 'our' people. We're doing fine, thanks.

[Oleg Bach]

Yes, gay people are 'everyone' and 'all'. 'Special interest groups' seem to denote people you don't want to have rights. Your regular cuckoo-clock style postings generally fall by the wayside, but when one bothers to read them they still can irritate as much as a conversation with a thick necked proletariat xenophobe. And this from a purported artist too. Too bad.

Don't you worry about the survival of 'our' people. We define who is 'us' and we have defined people with different sexual practices to be part of 'our' people. We're doing fine, thanks.

So the mutants grow strong and I should fear them? I don't even know what a "xoneophobe" is? As for my "thick neck" are you suggesting putting a a rope around it? It seems that YOU are willing to destroy those that simply do not like you - I do not like you but I am not about to hang you...as you suggest.

This is the funny part - "purported artist" - what is that supposed to suggest - that I am not a flaming interiour designer with no talent but lots of finacial backing? DO you suggest that todays modern artists are all bi-sexual or experimenters in bliss and homo- errotic bullshit? You are typical - Down the street there is a little club - and the woman will not book me because I am old school - even though I am a better singer song writer than those she does book .

Once I can in with my son in law for a drink - she eyed me the old man with the slight and slightly femine son in law....and said this with glee and hopeful insinuation...Who's this Alec" - suggesting it was some sort of lover...when I said it was my son-inlaw she scowled and was disappointed - they call me a hich and a red neck because I do not take it up the **** or vise versa -----sorry Micheal - I am what I am and "we are doing just fine"

As for your oh so great posts - I never read them because they are standard - safe and boring.

[Remiel]

No kid should be forced to partake in the acquired taste that is the gay phenomena. If a kid finds it unplesant..He or she should not be forced to appreciate the flavour of lemon when they prefer strawberry.

Partake in the gay phenomenon? Is teaching about the Nazis forcing children to partake in the white supremacist phenomenon?

[Oleg Bach]

While my anger still burns - let me give you another piece of my mind. I feel genererous today....The purported artist comment is vexing - and shows a stero-typical plus dated mind set you have as far as art and music...There is such a thing as conservative artists. This buisness that all artists live by their whims and are bohemian in nature is something out of the 1800... You also assume that all artists embrace everything...and tolerate everything....Just because someone is black does not mean they are fabulous dancers with grate rythm and can sing....just because someone is gay doe not mean that they all have artistic talent.

As for the special interest groups - if you were not so prejudice you would have read the part where I say "human rights for ALL'' You ignored that - human rights for all - includes all special interest groups - You try to hard to be liked by everyone Michael _ I don't care if I am liked - just don't attack or harm me.. I expect the same from everyone - civil behavour...Fanatic behaviour starts off small and ends up like old France with heads rolling into baskets -------------Give one group rights - let them gain power and heads will roll - my head.

[Oleg Bach]

Partake in the gay phenomenon? Is teaching about the Nazis forcing children to partake in the white supremacist phenomenon?

Extremism starts off with a whisper and ends with a holocaust or the burning whole of average normal people. I will tell you something about the gay community - not all blind people are saints and not all gay people are angels - There are those that harbour intense hatred and violent loathing for those that do not fully approve of them - I feel that if some of these radicals were given full power - they would murder on mass and problably enjoy it.

[Remiel]

The fight for gay rights, and the abuse gays have suffered, is "real history." What I question is singling out "gay's accomplishments." Seems to me that their accomplishments should be taught the same as heterosexual's accomplishments are taught - without mention of sexual preference.

If you may excuse me because I am becoming a bit of a Devil's Advocate here; my distaste for thinking about some kinds of homosexuality is not unlike Oleg's even: but is what you are saying, in some way, like attempting to teach history without mentioning whether historical figures are male or female? I mean, you could not mention that almost every historical figure we know of in Greek antiquity is male, but then you would not really understand what Greek society was like: dominated by men.

[Michael Hardner]

So the mutants grow strong and I should fear them? I don't even know what a "xoneophobe" is? As for my "thick neck" are you suggesting putting a a rope around it? It seems that YOU are willing to destroy those that simply do not like you - I do not like you but I am not about to hang you...as you

1. Fearing mutants sounds more on-message with you than me.

2. Do what you have to, I am not encouraging self-abuse in any form.

3. I believe that in order to create you must destroy, but you can destroy something by building it up too.

This is the funny part - "purported artist" - what is that supposed to suggest - that I am not a flaming interiour designer with no talent but lots of finacial backing? DO you suggest that todays modern artists are all bi-sexual or experimenters in bliss and homo- errotic bullshit? You are typical - Down the street there is a little club - and the woman will not book me because I am old school - even though I am a better singer song writer than those she does book .

I have no field experience as to the bisexuality of artists, but I don't know of any who broadcast themselves as bigots, let alone anybody who would consider too-familiar chauvinism as something to be proud of.

I would book you if you were interesting, and you didn't break the law or drive out patrons with your tired old bigotries.

Once I can in with my son in law for a drink - she eyed me the old man with the slight and slightly femine son in law....and said this with glee and hopeful insinuation...Who's this Alec" - suggesting it was some sort of lover...when I said it was my son-inlaw she scowled and was disappointed - they call me a hich and a red neck because I do not take it up the **** or vise versa -----sorry Micheal - I am what I am and "we are doing just fine"

Many other red necks threw in the towel. Maybe they didn't have principles, but more likely they didn't see the point of fighting a moral fight in a world where morals had changed. They were probably less stubborn than you too.

As for your oh so great posts - I never read them because they are standard - safe and boring.

There's nothing as safe and boring as repeating what your grandfather's views were. I'm middle-aged too, but I have changed somewhat with the world.

[g_bambino]

Part of the problem is, I think, that if you never mention homosexuality in history, it gives the impression that it is somehow merely a modern phenomenon.

Homosexuality certainly isn't, but "gay" is. There's no need to edit homosexuality out of history, as has been attempted already, but, on the other hand, textbooks should not be used as a tool for gay activists to aid their cause by imparting on schoolkids the impression that the gay label and associated culture is not a modern phenomenon.

[Michael Hardner]

There is such a thing as conservative artists. This buisness that all artists live by their whims and are bohemian in nature is something out of the 1800... You also assume that all artists embrace everything...and tolerate everything....Just because someone is black does not mean they are fabulous dancers with grate rythm and can sing....just because someone is gay doe not mean that they all have artistic talent.

Artists were tolerating homosexuality a long time ago. Conservative artists do too, but not those who are unable to understand things, and cling to their grandfather's bigotries.

Did you mean to type 'grate' or 'gyrate' ?

As for the special interest groups - if you were not so prejudice you would have read the part where I say "human rights for ALL'' You ignored that - human rights for all - includes all special interest groups -

I already addressed that.

[Michael Hardner]

Extremism starts off with a whisper and ends with a holocaust or the burning whole of average normal people.

This is a turning around of the entire subject - a distortion. The 'Normal People', you see, were never the problem - it was the minorities who were. The Normal People demonized them as deviants and grew their prejudices and hates until they were scolded no more, and then were emboldened to act on them.

I'm sorry if I tut-tut you like a school teacher, but some of your posts do sound like school yard banter.

[Remiel]

Homosexuality certainly isn't, but "gay" is. There's no need to edit homosexuality out of history, as has been attempted already, but, on the other hand, textbooks should not be used as a tool for gay activists to aid their cause by imparting on schoolkids the impression that the gay label and associated culture is not a modern phenomenon.

I agree, but do you really think the article and legislation in question mean " gay " as anything other than a synonym for " homosexual " ?

[Sir Bandelot]

Really the only problem I have with this is the word "required". I say let people who have in interest in gay history take the course. it doesn't seem necessary to make it a requirement for all. I don't understand how anyone can justify that.

[Guest American Woman]

Really the only problem I have with this is the word "required". I say let people who have in interest in gay history take the course. it doesn't seem necessary to make it a requirement for all. I don't understand how anyone can justify that.

Except "gay history" is being taught as part of the required history course. There is no separate "gay history" course, so whether people have an interest in it or not matters not. Just like it doesn't matter if they have an interest in WWII or not - it, too, is a required part of the required history course.

[Guest American Woman]

If you may excuse me because I am becoming a bit of a Devil's Advocate here; my distaste for thinking about some kinds of homosexuality is not unlike Oleg's even: but is what you are saying, in some way, like attempting to teach history without mentioning whether historical figures are male or female? I mean, you could not mention that almost every historical figure we know of in Greek antiquity is male, but then you would not really understand what Greek society was like: dominated by men.

Are you comparing sexuality with gender? Because while I am required to enter "male" or "female" on many forms, none ask for my sexual preferences.

If a certain segment of society was dominated by homosexuals, then teach that. But that is different from saying, for example, that the such-and-such was invented by Joe, who was gay, while the whatchamacallit was invented by Sam, who was heterosexual. What does their sexuality - their sexual preferences - have to do with such an accomplishment? Do we also need to include if they were married or divorced or separated or living with someone or bisexual or cross dressers or just liked to wear girls panties on occasion or just not interested in sex at all?

[Michael Hardner]

I think that students need to be taught contentious and contemporary topics such as this as an introduction to how these issues are worked out in society. There's nothing to be afraid of.

[g_bambino]

I agree, but do you really think the article and legislation in question mean "gay" as anything other than a synonym for "homosexual"?

Likely not in the article; but, it's not unusual for the media to do so, given the general inability of journalists to express nuance. The legislation I can't say anything about, since I haven't read it.

[Remiel]

Are you comparing sexuality with gender? Because while I am required to enter "male" or "female" on many forms, none ask for my sexual preferences.

If a certain segment of society was dominated by homosexuals, then teach that. But that is different from saying, for example, that the such-and-such was invented by Joe, who was gay, while the whatchamacallit was invented by Sam, who was heterosexual. What does their sexuality - their sexual preferences - have to do with such an accomplishment? Do we also need to include if they were married or divorced or separated or living with someone or bisexual or cross dressers or just liked to wear girls panties on occasion or just not interested in sex at all?

History is not a list of accomplishments, for one thing. At the very least, it is a list of accomplishments in context. If I say to you " Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon, " you could reply " Why does what rivers or forests Caesar crossed have to do with real history: the fact that he became Emperor of Rome? " You would, however, not understand the history at all.

[Oleg Bach]

1. Fearing mutants sounds more on-message with you than me.

2. Do what you have to, I am not encouraging self-abuse in any form.

3. I believe that in order to create you must destroy, but you can destroy something by building it up too.

I have no field experience as to the bisexuality of artists, but I don't know of any who broadcast themselves as bigots, let alone anybody who would consider too-familiar chauvinism as something to be proud of.

I would book you if you were interesting, and you didn't break the law or drive out patrons with your tired old bigotries.

Many other red necks threw in the towel. Maybe they didn't have principles, but more likely they didn't see the point of fighting a moral fight in a world where morals had changed. They were probably less stubborn than you too.

There's nothing as safe and boring as repeating what your grandfather's views were. I'm middle-aged too, but I have changed somewhat with the world.

Nerver met my grand father - the socialist and other social engineers took him out after 6 years of attempted convictions and shot him dead - so much for your theory on my influences.

(a) When I have preformed in public the music speaks for itself - I don't stand on stage and spew half baked soical views or poitical ideals - I am a pro - I play and sing - entertain - no once have I "driven out" a patron.

( The world has changed and I have adapted - all of those that I assoicate with are from all age ranges and I do not have a problem with any of them

© If you have no experience with those who have spent a life time in the arts it is not appropriate that you even hint at being expert in that area.

(d) I am not a red neck - my parents were sophisticated and just individuals - I grew up in a red neck culture - and they are my adopted tribe. As for the young club owner - she likes to book her friend out of colleage...She knows my music and my sons and associates - we are skilled and dynamic - pros - she simply does not want entertainment that is of higher quality than the status quo she supports.

(e) I do not understand your point number 2 - self abuse? Do what you have to do? what is all that about - do you have a problem with general perceptions?.

Lastly as for your great loyality and support of the so-called gay community that is in the full spirit of political correctness...do what you THINK you have too do - As a kid who made his living busking in the subways (orignial subway musican) and playing in the pit at YOUNG and DUNDAS - I made a good living and saw everything imaginable on that strip over a period of years...all I can say is that traits like kindness - honour - honesty - service - were not traits found in most self serving - pleasure seeking coke snorting gays - they are not all GOOD people - some are horrific human beings...That is my true point...to clump them into one group and protect and advance them as if they were saints is a mistake based in some sort of guilt and false social progress.

Gays and older gay during that era - caused a lot of damage..harmed a lot of helpless street kids - and are not the great intellectual heros that YOU would like the world to believe - people are people - some are sinister and evil and others less so...I am pragmatic - and YOU my friend are a wishful thinking idealog.

[Guest American Woman]

History is not a list of accomplishments, for one thing. At the very least, it is a list of accomplishments in context. If I say to you " Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon, " you could reply " Why does what rivers or forests Caesar crossed have to do with real history: the fact that he became Emperor of Rome? " You would, however, not understand the history at all.

So tell me why it would be necessary to include Julius Ceaser's sexual preference in that history lesson, because that is the issue I am addressing. And are you saying I would not understand the history of the invention of the telephone, for example, if I didn't know the sexual preference of Alexander Graham Bell?

As I said before, I support the idea of teaching about the historical aspect of gays regarding their fight for equality, the inequalities and abuse they endured because of their sexuality. But beyond that, I don't think their sexual preference is of any more relevance than anyone else's.

SB48 would require, as soon as the 2013-2014 school year, the California Board of Education and local school districts to adopt textbooks and other teaching materials that cover the contributions and roles of sexual minorities.

Perhaps I'm misreading the bill, but what I object to is including the sexual preference of those who made contributions to society - outside of the realm of issues gays faced/were subjected to simply because they are gay; ie: inequalities, abuses, legal battles, punishments, etc.

[Oleg Bach]

In closeing Michael - the internet is not real - it is not the real world and does not present people for who they truely are. To take advantage of what I write and to brutally convict me of something is based in fancey ...I write to entertain myself and others...This media is no different than TV - it is interactive but it is not real - Alec Bachlow is NOT Oleg Bach...This is art - it can provoke - shock - delight - and yes irritate...you expect to much out of faceless people on the net - where being a liar and fabricator are common fare.

[Oleg Bach]

So tell me why it would be necessary to include Julius Ceaser's sexual preference in that history lesson, because that is the issue I am addressing. And are you saying I would not understand the history of the invention of the telephone, for example, if I didn't know the sexual preference of Alexander Graham Bell?

As I said before, I support the idea of teaching about the historical aspect of gays regarding their fight for equality, the inequalities and abuse they endured because of their sexuality. But beyond that, I don't think their sexual preference is of any more relevance than anyone else's.

SB48 would require, as soon as the 2013-2014 school year, the California Board of Education and local school districts to adopt textbooks and other teaching materials that cover the contributions and roles of sexual minorities.

Perhaps I'm misreading the bill, but what I object to is including the sexual preference of those who made contributions to society - outside of the realm of issues gays faced/were subjected to simply because they are gay; ie: inequalities, abuses, legal battles, punishments, etc.

Feel bad for those in the past who were dragged into courts for "crimes against nature" as it was called at one time...especially for the truely born mutant gays that were tormented and persecuted and jailed...I do not feel bad for the common sodomist that harmed other men or children...who now under the gay flag are called "gay" - when all they were were bastards.

Long as they do not fabricate or revise long gone historical figures - and say "Michealangelo was gay - Plato was gay because he was Greek - Jesus was gay - Alexander the Great was gay -----and so on and so on - These men are dead and can not speak on their own behalf - conjecture for instance because some great artists had a staff of young men working for them that some how they were abusing them......this is all milarkie.

Still I fail to see the importance of giving the history of what is now a privledged class with tons of disposable income - How about perhaps gathering the kids together to find a way to get water and food to millions of dying from drought in Africa...rather than kiss the ass of some fashion designers who make clothing for woman they do not like - but objectify worse than some red neck biggot straight would do.