Gay history to become required subject in California schools

[Michael Hardner]

Nerver met my grand father - the socialist and other social engineers took him out after 6 years of attempted convictions and shot him dead - so much for your theory on my influences.

You can easily be influenced by anyone - dead or alive. I can see the influences on you, even if you can't.

(a) When I have preformed in public the music speaks for itself - I don't stand on stage and spew half baked soical views or poitical ideals - I am a pro - I play and sing - entertain - no once have I "driven out" a patron.

So you're saying that conservative arts merely entertain, and don't spray their political perfume around as you do here ? Well, good then. I'm not sure why you think 'conservative artists' are even necessary then. My favourite conservative artist is Clint Eastwood, and he sure doesn't shut up about it, nor does he just repeat hoary anti-everyone affirmations.

( The world has changed and I have adapted - all of those that I assoicate with are from all age ranges and I do not have a problem with any of them

The straight ones, you mean. It's kind of like saying I'm not a racist, all my friends are white.

© If you have no experience with those who have spent a life time in the arts it is not appropriate that you even hint at being expert in that area.

I think that I do have such experiences.

Lastly as for your great loyality and support of the so-called gay community that is in the full spirit of political correctness...do what you THINK you have too do - As a kid who made his living busking in the subways (orignial subway musican) and playing in the pit at YOUNG and DUNDAS - I made a good living and saw everything imaginable on that strip over a period of years...all I can say is that traits like kindness - honour - honesty - service - were not traits found in most self serving - pleasure seeking coke snorting gays - they are not all GOOD people - some are horrific human beings...That is my true point...to clump them into one group and protect and advance them as if they were saints is a mistake based in some sort of guilt and false social progress.

You have missed the point again. Nobody celebrates emancipation because the liberated groups are proven to be 'good' - honest, kind or what have you. They're human beings, is the point.

They're not a 'credit to their race' and they don't have to prove their value to you or anyone. These are human rights, not 'worthy peoples as deemmed by Oleg' rights.

...are not the great intellectual heros that YOU would like the world to believe - people are people - some are sinister and evil and others less so...I am pragmatic - and YOU my friend are a wishful thinking idealog.

You're making me into an idealogue because otherwise, your argument has no legs. We arrived at this point in history because we have seen that a better life, and a better world is there for those of us who stand for human rights in our society, and who demand that the society work to guarantee those rights through a system.

These are the types of teachings I hope to see in history classes.

There is actually a debate to be had about gay rights in society, but the one we just had is not it. I hope they show the kids the right debates.

[Michael Hardner]

To take advantage of what I write and to brutally convict me of something is based in fancey ...I write to entertain myself and others...This media is no different than TV - it is interactive but it is not real - Alec Bachlow is NOT Oleg Bach...This is art - it can provoke - shock - delight - and yes irritate...you expect to much out of faceless people on the net - where being a liar and fabricator are common fare.

This is known as fighting and running away. You're basically saying that you don't take your posts on here seriously, which is not hard to see. There's nothing wrong with that.

There is art in rhetoric, and who we are is not what we say we are but..

But if you don't actually believe what you post, that's a different kind of frivolity. No sane person would want to engage in discussion with a parrot or a robot.

[Oleg Bach]

Part of the problem is, I think, that if you never mention homosexuality in history, it gives the impression that it is somehow merely a modern phenomenon.

We live now not in history - the past does not exist...nor does the future. So in effect if you are chronoligically pragmatic - it is a modern phenomenon. The only reason to even consider as you point out - giving it historic context is to further legitimize it and make it more and more exceptable until it is mainstream. WHY for God's sake is this so important and how will this improve the world? Gays have political and moral protection in the west - why do they want more and more credibity? Maybe they should teach gay dialect also - what is that - most of them speak with the same accent - as if they immigrated from Gayland...lol.

[Oleg Bach]

This is known as fighting and running away. You're basically saying that you don't take your posts on here seriously, which is not hard to see. There's nothing wrong with that.

There is art in rhetoric, and who we are is not what we say we are but..

But if you don't actually believe what you post, that's a different kind of frivolity. No sane person would want to engage in discussion with a parrot or a robot.

As a kid my favorite move with a bully was to sneak up and sucker shot him - and then run like hell....Sane people have discussions with a comedian on stage...the art of heckling is kind of creative...What makes you beleive that I am interested in having a discussion with most of you? I like to rant and make statements - kind of like an armchair statesman or statesperson for the poitically correct...I do enjoy having a real short and concise interchange with Bush Chaney and a few other...because - they see through my provocative rhetoricals and grasp the core of what I am REALLY trying to say - with them I don't have a problem....with some I would have to spoon feed them .

The little clash with Michael Hardner is not relevant. My retort was not relevant - Michael rashly believes that I am a hater of sorts - In REAL live as for the gay commuinity - I don't attend gay pride parades or hang out with them - across the street is one gay guy called Martin - he is not feeling well and I am always asking about his health - because I care about him and hope for the best - Then there is another gay associate - He is creepy - caught him selling hard drugs to the local corner store guy who later died of a heart attack - I tolerate him - but really do not like him...

In general I am compassionate and do care...but I like to toss some crap in the air to get people to think and consider things in a less orthodox way... so I am not as mean as I write.

[Michael Hardner]

What makes you beleive that I am interested in having a discussion with most of you?

Hmm... let's see. You are part of a discussion board ?

I like to rant and make statements

So did McLuhan, Hitler, Oscar Wilde and a parrot. Which one are you ?

The little clash with Michael Hardner is not relevant.

What clash ? You posted an ill-considered comment and I painted it as such. I guess I offended you somehow. Oh well. I guess a parrot can't be offended, so that's a good thing.

My retort was not relevant - Michael rashly believes that I am a hater of sorts

I have no idea what 'you' are. People are more than their words, or even their actions. You may not understand yourself as well as you think, so who am I to make pronouncements on 'you'. The closest reflection I have of your brain-machine is the output from it - your posts. I can only guess if you are a hater, but I know for sure that your posts are 'off'.

In general I am compassionate and do care...but I like to toss some crap in the air to get people to think and consider things in a less orthodox way... so I am not as mean as I write.

The worst sin is being boring, and I think I firstly condemned your off-colour ideas as being dull and old. That's the most offensive thing about them. A flashy, brightly coloured bigot in a gold suit would at least be something to look at.

[Oleg Bach]

Hmm... let's see. You are part of a discussion board ?

So did McLuhan, Hitler, Oscar Wilde and a parrot. Which one are you ?

What clash ? You posted an ill-considered comment and I painted it as such. I guess I offended you somehow. Oh well. I guess a parrot can't be offended, so that's a good thing.

I have no idea what 'you' are. People are more than their words, or even their actions. You may not understand yourself as well as you think, so who am I to make pronouncements on 'you'. The closest reflection I have of your brain-machine is the output from it - your posts. I can only guess if you are a hater, but I know for sure that your posts are 'off'.

The worst sin is being boring, and I think I firstly condemned your off-colour ideas as being dull and old. That's the most offensive thing about them. A flashy, brightly coloured bigot in a gold suit would at least be something to look at.

Looks like what you are saying is that I who once had not bad original material - am like an old broken down comic who is now rehashing and parroting himself. Understanding myself is not that important to me - why remove the mystery with full understanding? I might get bored with me.

You Micheal have learned from me - the art of pressing buttons - and now like a rebeling student you toss what I have shown in my face - okay _ I get the message - Now for a little story about Cliff my once good friend - He was a cunning and shrewd as one can be - I said to him when I used HIS material...and HE complained...after I said "It was you who taught me these tricks" He replied "I have not taught you everythinng" -

What happens Micheal with these interchanges is that a person will learn from a master - then once he figures that he has drained that old master dry - they move on...BUT time moves on and the master himself continues to develope and learn at even a more rapid pace and is NOT the person who they were yesterday - THEN in time the student comes back for more when they are empty - and the older master give him nothing. Usually they never come back because they are prejudice and assume they have sized up the person and figure - that's all there is....There is more Michael...but not for you.

[Oleg Bach]

Okay - I submit---this red neck tosses in the towel...My dogs have human rights - I love all gay people....I love you ....I hate me -----happy now Michael? I have joined up with you ----------------------now explain to me now that I have joined the proper club - THE BENEFITS OF MY SUBMISSION AND JOINING? I really want to know if I become the person you believe I should be - if there is anything in it for ME - will I be more happy - will I get younger more beautiful woman - will I be more prosperous? There has to be an up side to all this.....OKAY - I am in.....now show me the money.

[Michael Hardner]

Understanding myself is not that important to me - why remove the mystery with full understanding?

It allows you to move forward. I would be more bored with 'me' if I fell into the same traps all the time, or if people started avoiding me for some unknown reason. If I understand myself better I can outsmart me and the new me can move on.

You Micheal have learned from me - the art of pressing buttons - and now like a rebeling student you toss what I have shown in my face - okay _ I get the message -

I pressed a button without knowing or caring. If my parrot gets mad, it's hard for me to tell as the squawking always sounds the same to me.

What happens Micheal with these interchanges is that a person will learn from a master - then once he figures that he has drained that old master dry - they move on...BUT time moves on and the master himself continues to develope and learn at even a more rapid pace and is NOT the person who they were yesterday -

I don't know who is the student and the master in your analogy. In my analogy, if it's not clear to you, you are the parrot.

There is more Michael...but not for you.

I have received nothing, zero from you so far in this exchange. From me, you seem to have got something even if it's just a temporarily elevated heart rate.

[Michael Hardner]

Okay - I submit---this red neck tosses in the towel...My dogs have human rights - I love all gay people....I love you ....I hate me -----happy now Michael? I have joined up with you --------------------

Yes, I am now happy. At least until I read your next post.

--now explain to me now that I have joined the proper club - THE BENEFITS OF MY SUBMISSION AND JOINING?

There are no promised benefits to living well, you just need to trust that they will come.

I really want to know if I become the person you believe I should be - if there is anything in it for ME - will I be more happy - will I get younger more beautiful woman - will I be more prosperous? There has to be an up side to all this.....OKAY - I am in.....now show me the money.

Kharma, Oleg, pays off in spades.

[Oleg Bach]

You just blew it with you being a western person who embraces eastern religion - Kharma!?// What the heck Mike - your grandmother would roll over in her grave...was your tradtional Christian up bringing and values not good enough - Just like a spoiled western kid you reach for some ten armed god and parrot out Karma.... I take offence to you useing the term "parrot" - a parrot has to hear something first and then mimic it.....My ideas are home spun - they come from my own mind so parrot is not a word that fits. Karma...can be translated into me giving a peice of bread to a hungry person - and knowing that it is good because when I am hungry my chances or getting bread increase...where if I deny a person bread - my chances when in need - decrease - this is called logic and good faith.

You are the one who spent years in university - with your like thinking peers - You are the one working a mainstream job..with your peers - You have never been out side the box - all you know is what you have learned from others --- I do admit - I did like listening to Northrope Fry - and Malcolm Muggeridge-----ooops --- I really enjoyed these people and I might be parroting a bit. BUT not as much as you oh compassionate Karma guy. There is not such thing as Karma.

[Michael Hardner]

Just like a spoiled western kid you reach for some ten armed god and parrot out Karma....

There's a secular use of the word too - think of it as 'good luck'.

I take offence to you useing the term "parrot" - a parrot has to hear something first and then mimic it.....My ideas are home spun - they come from my own mind so parrot is not a word that fits.

What does fit ? You didn't come up with the idea of condemning minority groups, I'm pretty sure, and the parrot didn't come up with that whole 'want a cracker' concept.

It's not the term parrot, it's the concept you see.

You are the one who spent years in university - with your like thinking peers - You are the one working a mainstream job..with your peers - You have never been out side the box - all you know is what you have learned from others ---

I'm not sure how that' different for you or anyone else. You can also learn from your own observations, I suppose, but there's that whole idea of standing on the shoulders of giants. The parrot can't read, so it wants a cracker or asks who's a pretty birdy - but even those things are taught to it.

Einstein, Freud, even Jesus read things.

[Oleg Bach]

Thanks Mike..that was almost fun. What was the lesson here? Could it be - do your best or shut up? That's all I got out of it.....shame on me for being so lazy...and now my beak hurts - might have cracked it while eating those nuts that are hard to crack.....bawaaak...Polly wanna cracker and make it quick. Something I could dip in my tea.

[Oleg Bach]

There's a secular use of the word too - think of it as 'good luck'.

What does fit ? You didn't come up with the idea of condemning minority groups, I'm pretty sure, and the parrot didn't come up with that whole 'want a cracker' concept.

It's not the term parrot, it's the concept you see.

I'm not sure how that' different for you or anyone else. You can also learn from your own observations, I suppose, but there's that whole idea of standing on the shoulders of giants. The parrot can't read, so it wants a cracker or asks who's a pretty birdy - but even those things are taught to it.

Einstein, Freud, even Jesus read things.

Don't read much these days because daily observation seems more interesting. One of the kids friends dropped off a book for me recently. Age of PROPAGANDA the everydayuse and abuse of persuassion ...by Anthoney Paratkanis and Elliot Aronson.....He said it suits me and I could make use of it....It seems like a good book - but is poorly written - to much filler - I like a book that is well done - fast - and to the point - I like to learn but I just hate small talk when it comes down to absorbing the nitty gritty.

[Oleg Bach]

All education is good - No real problem with kids studying any history pertaining to any person or group. It is just - and I am like many,suspect of the purpose of such programs in schools. Someone some where must have pushed for this and I would like to know who that original instigator was and what they think - and what there reasoning is. This lack of information makes the imagination run wild and leads to conspiratorial ideation...

It would have been better if the title which is bear baited - read as such.....SO AND SO has proposed that gay histgory become a required subject in Californian schools - and so and so explains in detail there resoning why it is a neccesity. Then one could look it over and see if the intent is good or not good. The way this tread is titled it has the subtext in effect of saying

Eccentric Gay Agenda demands the minds or our children to be altered to their way of thinking and the parents can go to hell'

So it gets off to a negative start...and turns into they typical gay bashing thread...Just as I would like to know who are the individuals who nations pay interest debts too - I would like to know who the person is - and I would like to see a photo - and a resume` - seriously...I want to make a good judgement but the person to be judged is absent and all we have is hear say.

[Michael Hardner]

Just as I would like to know who are the individuals who nations pay interest debts too - I would like to know who the person is - and I would like to see a photo - and a resume` - seriously...I want to make a good judgement but the person to be judged is absent and all we have is hear say.

State Senator Mark Leno

[Sir Bandelot]

I think that students need to be taught contentious and contemporary topics such as this as an introduction to how these issues are worked out in society. There's nothing to be afraid of.

I suppose you are right. There's nothing to be afraid of. As long as the education kids get today puts them on an equal level with kids in other countries in terms of the ability to compete for good jobs. As long as we don't dilute the essential requirements for that, it's not a big problem.

On to the next topic.

[Jack Weber]

As a person who is not against gays let me say this. People who are not gay don't give a care what gay people do, in the privacy of their homes. But I don't want to hear about gayness, I don't want to learn about gayness. Some of us are repulsed by it, the same as we would be repulsed hearing about bestiality or sex with children. And I don't see any need to force the education of school kids to learn about it neither.

Yup..

[Moonlight Graham]

http://www.christianpost.com/news/calif-is-first-state-to-force-gay-history-into-classrooms-52334/

interesting topic, but not a very unbiased source. The article sucked.

[Oleg Bach]

State Senator Mark Leno

Did not even have read the script - one peek at Mark Leno's face said it all - one of those mutants...have nothing wrong with acts of nature...or mutations in general. Of course the man is "the first openly gay" senator...and he is from in and around San Francisco...I have not been in San Francisco for a long time - but last time I visited a friend took me to the gay ghetto..to buy some pot - for him of course cos I never inhaled ever - I saw the lowest of the low - male prostitutes - real bad versions of drag queens and a general moral rot that permiated the air...For a country boy from the pristine lake district on the Oak Ridge Moraine --- It was difficult to imagine such things existed and that was nearly 34 years ago.

Back to Senator Mark Leno - He might be able ot pull of his gay agenda thing on the kids in California - and especially around the San Francisco area...but it`s not going to fly in the rest of the nation or world. The established and influential gays in Califorina...are dellusional - They think that the whole world is California - it is not.

[Oleg Bach]

State Senator Mark Leno

In the future don`t call me a bigot or a xeon-phobe - what ever the hell that means - also - I do not parrot things - you do...you suck up to anything to maintain your income and position in society - Mike - You might be the perfect sell out - at least I have held on to my principles and believes and you have `changed with the world` Even if deep inside you don`t like it you go with the flow...see yah - would not wanna be yah. I gave it some thought _ YOU are wrong and I make sense.

[Oleg Bach]

Maintaining the status quo - that`s what it is about - we need not bend or submit to anyone.

[Remiel]

So tell me why it would be necessary to include Julius Ceaser's sexual preference in that history lesson, because that is the issue I am addressing. And are you saying I would not understand the history of the invention of the telephone, for example, if I didn't know the sexual preference of Alexander Graham Bell?

It is always going to be a matter of critical judgement whether sexual preference played an important role in the accomplishments of any particular individual. The unimportance of the sexuality Bell to the invention of the telephone should not be used to reason that the sexuality of Alexander the Great was not important to understanding his success.

Perhaps I'm misreading the bill, but what I object to is including the sexual preference of those who made contributions to society - outside of the realm of issues gays faced/were subjected to simply because they are gay; ie: inequalities, abuses, legal battles, punishments, etc.

Prior to the last forty or fifty years, when exactly is the sexual preference of a given figure not going to figure into the inequalities, abuses, legal battles, and punishments they faced?

[Michael Hardner]

Did not even have read the script - one peek at Mark Leno's face said it all - one of those mutants..

You judge a man based on his looks. Ok. What about his resume ? Successful businesses, education and so on ?

I don't have to call you a bigot, your own words here say a lot.

[g_bambino]

The unimportance of the sexuality Bell to the invention of the telephone should not be used to reason that the sexuality of Alexander the Great was not important to understanding his success.

Given that pretty much every man in Alexander's world behaved in the same manner, his sexuality is quite irrelevant to his success. That said, if students are covering ancient Greek and/or Macedonian culture, specifically, I don't see anything wrong with mentioning that men in that place, at that time, were expected - or, at least, openly allowed - to engage in both homosexual and heterosexual relationships, as did Alexander.

[Oleg Bach]

You judge a man based on his looks. Ok. What about his resume ? Successful businesses, education and so on ?

I don't have to call you a bigot, your own words here say a lot.

Some have a very good eye for the genetic material contained in a human being. Yes I can look at a person and pretty much figure out who there grand parents were - what type of people got together and bred this person - what their history is on a personal level and what their general attitude is. What you see is what you get. As for the resume~ It does not mean much - any one with great ambtion, drive and desire can achieve a very exceptable and impressive resume`.

As for success in buisness - I know some from my past who move millions every week and they are not worth the air they breath...I am not impressed by worldly or material so-called success. As for education - If you have the right backing and can attend the finest schools - and - have a good memory - a monkey can be educated..I know a fellow who is a grad from Cambridge and the London School of Economics - He is an emotional cripple not to mention he can not have a real relationship with woman or people - except on a superfical level.

There is a big difference between a dull minded bigot and a person with vision, experience and good judgement. I weigh things out and I as in regards to the topic contained in this thread - "Is this a good thing for society at large in the long run - or is it a detriment? I say it is a negative thing to the majority...and to the general common good...I have that RIGHT to evaluate something in the way I see fit and accurate and YOU - Mr. Hardner should allow me my freedom of thought and experssion.