I gotta say it. . .

[Shwa]

You can't be that stupid. Seriously. Nobody can be that stupid.

Typical Shady, resort to ad hominem when the argument is a big, giant fail. Which it is in this case.

You STILL haven't proved a thing, except refer to a limited group of prospects, some of which make the NFL, some maybe even the CFL.

D'OH!

So when you are you going to provide your proof Shady?

Or is this another one of your 'Shady's Fun Facts' moments, you know, you're ability at 'truthiness?'

LOFL!!!

[bloodyminded]

Ultimately, I think he sees it (irrelevantly, in my view) as a "Canada versus the United States" argument. So which side he will take is rather predictable.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ultimately, I think he sees it (irrelevantly, in my view) as a "Canada versus the United States" argument. So which side he will take is rather predictable.

Even if that were true, there is no shortage of such arguments or comparisons made by many other MLW members, up to and including the very definition of what it means to be Canadian (i.e. NOT American).

Edited July 5, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[bloodyminded]

Even if that were true, there is no shortage of such arguments or comparisons made my many other MLW members, up to and including the very definition of what it means to be Canadian (i.e. NOT American).

Yes, Shady is at least relatively unique, in that his Canadian, tribal us-vs-them instincts moves in the opposite direction from the group beset by a Canadian inferiority/superiority complex (it's never one or the other, but a heady admixture). But it remains precisely the same flaw.

[Shwa]

Even if that were true, there is no shortage of such arguments or comparisons made my many other MLW members, up to and including the very definition of what it means to be Canadian (i.e. NOT American).

God forbid if one is a hybrid. An almost schizophrenic existence in Toronto or Ithaca.

And the only reason I say that is because this thread has spent it's purpose.

RIP Doug Flutie.

[bush_cheney2004]

God forbid if one is a hybrid. An almost schizophrenic existence in Toronto or Ithaca....

All to the good when a member exercises his/her individual will and expression in a way that is consistent and congruent with observation(s). Pretending otherwise can lead to such issues in Toronto (or Ithaca).

This thread was innocent enough...and certainly not a new concept or debate. The author had no underlying political or social agenda...it is in the proper area (Travel, Leisure, and Sports). Somebody else turned it into yet another epic cross border struggle.

For the record, it is called the Canadian Football League for a reason.

[Shady]

You must lead a small, sad life.

Not really. Btw, you still pouting over the Rob Ford election!

[Shady]

Typical Shady, resort to ad hominem when the argument is a big, giant fail. Which it is in this case.

You STILL haven't proved a thing, except refer to a limited group of prospects, some of which make the NFL, some maybe even the CFL.

D'OH!

So when you are you going to provide your proof Shady?

Or is this another one of your 'Shady's Fun Facts' moments, you know, you're ability at 'truthiness?'

LOFL!!!

It's not ad hominem. You're refusing to accept scientific facts. The sample of athletes that populate the NFL is clearly superior to those of the CFL. And it's not the NFL that has a Canadian quota. Where teams have to have a certain number of Canadians on the team, despite the fact that there are better players that could fill those positions.

Give it a rest dude. It's over for you.

[Shady]

This thread was innocent enough...and certainly not a new concept or debate. The author had no underlying political or social agenda...it is in the proper area (Travel, Leisure, and Sports). Somebody else turned it into yet another epic cross border struggle.

We can thank ol'Jack for that. If anyone says anything about his sacred cow the CFL, he gets very defensive. Yet, it's ok for him to go around to other threads, commenting on how bad other sports are. *cough* hockey *cough*

He's captain hypocrite of our forum. But he's still fun to post with.

[Boges]

All to the good when a member exercises his/her individual will and expression in a way that is consistent and congruent with observation(s). Pretending otherwise can lead to such issues in Toronto (or Ithaca).

This thread was innocent enough...and certainly not a new concept or debate. The author had no underlying political or social agenda...it is in the proper area (Travel, Leisure, and Sports). Somebody else turned it into yet another epic cross border struggle.

For the record, it is called the Canadian Football League for a reason.

Thanks. I guess.

FTR comparing the athletes is a futile effort anyway. If I'm a Canadian and I grow up playing Canadian Football but I have the opportunity to play in the NFL, I will.

More money, more fame, more name recognition.

Why do you think the best Canadian Hockey players play in the US.

[Jack Weber]

Anyway, what I've noticed about the CFL is that the offenses mimic the spread offenses you see in the Southern US College Football. All from the shotgun, lots of lateral motion, very little hard nose through the tackles football. Lot's of passing (you have to when you only have 3 downs) It's evidence that the defenses aren't all that good in the CFL.

Offensively speaking,this I would definately agree with...I remember watching Montreal play a few years ago and thinking that they run thier offence similar to the way alot of (former) Big 12 teams play.Montreal always plays a short to medium passing game while trying to get the open receiver's in space.Since the retirement of Mike Pringle,the Al's have gone to smaller "scat back" types of runningf backs..This is preciseley the way Mack Brown runs the offence at Texas...Gary Pinkell at Missouri..Mike Leach did at Texas Tech (it remains to be seen if Tommy Tubberville continues this in Lubbuck)

But that does'nt necessarily mean that the defences are bad...We see alot of high scoring in the Big 12,but that's because of the ability of the receivers to create seperation through the schemes the OC plans..Not necessarily because the DB's are'nt very good...

Edited July 6, 2011 by Jack Weber

[Jack Weber]

Suppose for once in his life Shady is right about something and its that NFL players are stronger and faster than their CFL counterparts. The question is: so what? Playing these athletes under U.S. rules is like hitching Secretariat to a chuckwagon.

Stronger and faster relative to the skill set needed on a 100 yard long,50 yard wide football field...

[Jack Weber]

It's not ad hominem. You're refusing to accept scientific facts. The sample of athletes that populate the NFL is clearly superior to those of the CFL. And it's not the NFL that has a Canadian quota. Where teams have to have a certain number of Canadians on the team, despite the fact that there are better players that could fill those positions.

Give it a rest dude. It's over for you.

Scientific facts,huh???

Explain Ryan Leaf,Matt Leinart,and,Maurice Clarrett??

[Shady]

Stronger and faster relative to the skill set needed on a 100 yard long,50 yard wide football field...

Same skills my friend as in the CFL. And it's not as though with a good training camp, the suprior NFL players couldn't adapt and preform at a higher level anyways. There ain't no CFL linebacker faster than Clay Matthews, or Patrick Willis, or Keith Rivers, etc, etc, etc.

[Shady]

Scientific facts,huh???

Explain Ryan Leaf,Matt Leinart,and,Maurice Clarrett??

Actually, Clarrett had bad combine numbers. So there isn't much to explain. Leaf and Leinart weren't really that spectacular either. What, the CFL hasn't had draft busts? Especially at QB? Nice try my friend.

[Jack Weber]

We can thank ol'Jack for that. If anyone says anything about his sacred cow the CFL, he gets very defensive. Yet, it's ok for him to go around to other threads, commenting on how bad other sports are. *cough* hockey *cough*

He's captain hypocrite of our forum. But he's still fun to post with.

Professor of Footballology..

Could you please go find anywhere where I've said one was better than the other??

Could you point out anyplace where I've denegrated any of the players in any league,other than showing your combine "science" is a little off?

[Jack Weber]

LOL, I can't believe you people are still in such denial. The fact is that any American college players that can't make an NFL roster, end up trying out for the CFL. And even the good Canadian university players always try to make an NFL roster before having to settle for the CFL. *cough* Jessie Lumsden *cough*

The best athletes are always going to be in the NFL. Don't get me wrong, the CFL is a nice league. But if you're trying to actually say that the leagues are on par for talent, you're completely delusional. The average NFL player can do everything better than the average CFL player. It's a fact.

So...

That's a "no" to you ever strapping on the pads and playing this game at any real organized level???

[bush_cheney2004]

Thanks. I guess.

FTR comparing the athletes is a futile effort anyway. If I'm a Canadian and I grow up playing Canadian Football but I have the opportunity to play in the NFL, I will....

Agreed....this has already been stated...the comparisons that are not futile are conducted by the coaches and owners evaluating talent and skill. It's not much of an issue in the USA because we have far more amateur and professional football product to choose from, including the CFL. Madden used to permit downloads of CFL players/rosters, but I don't know anyone who ever did.

[guyser]

Why do you think the best Canadian Hockey players play in the US NHL.

Y'welcome

Edited July 5, 2011 by guyser

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, Clarrett had bad combine numbers. So there isn't much to explain. Leaf and Leinart weren't really that spectacular either. What, the CFL hasn't had draft busts? Especially at QB? Nice try my friend.

It goes deeper than that...just follow the money...and contracts. Many CFL players/agents and the NFL want a contract clause to play in the NFL. This stems from the dark days when the CFL nearly went under but for a cash infusion from the "south":

Canadian teams were hemorrhaging money in 1997, not long after failed expansion experiments in such U.S. cities as Shreveport, La., Memphis, Tenn., and Birmingham, Ala. In exchange for its critical infusion of cash, the NFL was granted access to CFL players entering a defined window in the option year of their contract.

That practice will be allowed to continue, Mr. Cohon said, because it has been written into the CFL’s collective bargaining agreement with its players. He did, however, say it would remain open “through the end of this agreement.”

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=563856

[Shwa]

It's not ad hominem. You're refusing to accept scientific facts. The sample of athletes that populate the NFL is clearly superior to those of the CFL. And it's not the NFL that has a Canadian quota. Where teams have to have a certain number of Canadians on the team, despite the fact that there are better players that could fill those positions.

Give it a rest dude. It's over for you.

So let's review, shall we? Shady's Fun Facts

Shady, on 04 July 2011 - 01:11 PM, said:

Exactly. Not to mention that NFL players are faster than CFL players anyways.

Actually yes. It's called the NFL and CFL combines.

So you are taking a test of a select group of non-NFL players to determine the overall 'betterness' of an entire league.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. More truthiness at work.

Let me ask you the same questions you so ungracefully dodged a few pages ago:

Does a 5 year veteran of the NFL get invited to the NFL combine Shady? How about a 15 year veteran? Or how about a guy that has just finished his rookie year, does he get an invite?

Because we are talking about NFL players. Not combine invites who have never played a single NFL game.

So you do realize that the marginal differences in combine results are marginal right? You do realize that some NFL players didn't get invited to the combines right? That the combine is a scouting process? Do you even get that? Do you even get that there is more to a successful football player than a few select measurements in a combined scouting physical fitness test?

Cause it doesn't seem you do. Like you are... clueless.

And you STILL haven't given any proof whatsoever that "NFL players are faster than CFL players anyways" and I don't think you can. Which leaves you shit out of luck with your truthiness claim.

Over for me? Nah, son. The laughs are still aplenty while you flounder around in your own crapulence.

ROFL!!!

[Shady]

So you are taking a test of a select group of non-NFL players

No, their the players that the NFL uses to populate their league. You're still having trouble with this concept? The combine scores are partially used to determine draft status. Whether they're selected in the first, second, third, etc, etc, rounds. TO PLAY IN THE NFL. Same with the CFL combines. This really shouldn't be so hard for you to grasp.

[Shwa]

It goes deeper than that...just follow the money...and contracts. Many CFL players/agents and the NFL want a contract clause to play in the NFL. This stems from the dark days when the CFL nearly went under but for a cash infusion from the "south":

Canadian teams were hemorrhaging money in 1997, not long after failed expansion experiments in such U.S. cities as Shreveport, La., Memphis, Tenn., and Birmingham, Ala. In exchange for its critical infusion of cash, the NFL was granted access to CFL players entering a defined window in the option year of their contract.

That practice will be allowed to continue, Mr. Cohon said, because it has been written into the CFL’s collective bargaining agreement with its players. He did, however, say it would remain open “through the end of this agreement.”

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/canada/story.html?id=563856

Yes and let's follow the logic of Shady's Fun Facts:

Why on earth would the NFL want "access" to CFL players? Since, as Shady's Fun Fact unequivocally states, is that all the best players are already in the NFL; bigger, faster, stronger - according to the NFL Combine. I mean, what does a first stringer on a CFL roster have over a bigger, faster, stronger fourth stringer on a NFL roster?

What were the combine results of that undrafted walk-on?

[Shwa]

No, their the players that the NFL uses to populate their league. You're still having trouble with this concept? The combine scores are partially used to determine draft status. Whether they're selected in the first, second, third, etc, etc, rounds. TO PLAY IN THE NFL. Same with the CFL combines. This really shouldn't be so hard for you to grasp.

So Shady, do they invite 5 year NFL veterans to the combine? How about a 15 year veteran? How about rookie after his first season?

You know, actual NFL players?

Really, this shouldn't be hard for you to grasp, yet it seems to be a real problem for you.

Let me guess, you judge the performance of a standing air force by how well they do in air cadets right?

[bush_cheney2004]

...Because we are talking about NFL players. Not combine invites who have never played a single NFL game.

It is exactly because you are talking about the entire NFL player data domain that member Shady would still technically be correct, irrespective of player combines. Assuming a normal distribution for player speed (age, position, weight, etc.) in both the NFL and CFL, there would indeed be more faster (and slower) NFL players.

Edited July 5, 2011 by bush_cheney2004