Fun with Flotillas Pt II

[bush_cheney2004]

....you miss the point. this is not about an individual. this is a collective effort from these artists and their fans from around the world to bring attention and to show that they can't support a state that has been violating a group of people's rights for decades.

Sure they can...the US and Canada have supported each other for over a century!

[DogOnPorch]

two dozen ships are sailing from around the world in support of the gazans and palestinians. this is unprecedented and it goes to show where this is heading. israel has decided not to participate in and accept a palestinian state thus, isolating itself. people don't want to wait for israel to change its mind and do the right thing.

2 French ships to join Gaza flotilla - link-

NY Times, CNN to Travel Aboard Flotilla - link-

Canadians to sail in flotilla protesting Gaza blockade - link-

Alice Walker: Why I'm sailing to Gaza - link-

If they really cared, they'd be running medical supplies into Syria. This exercise just confirms what a good chunk of the viewing audience already figured out.

[M.Dancer]

human rights violations goes beyond being allowed to vote.

Ummmm....are you saying voting is a human rights violation? ....

[M.Dancer]

so, yeah, you are going off on a tangent. the palestinian authority has already accepted israel based on international law. it happened over 20 years ago.

And? Why then do they still call for the destruction of israel? Why then do they still attack? | congenital stupidity? Tough titty for them. They can wait another 50 years until they learn...

it's going to happen dancer. a palestinian state will be formed and you're not going to like it.

States that engage in rude behaviour can be invaded, crushed and destroyed. You aren't going to like it, but who cares what the simps like?

[Bob]

M. Dancer, the important fact is that although the PLO recognized Israel in 1988, it never recognized Israel as a Jewish state. They might as well have recognized the Islamic state of Israel. At the same time, however, I'm not so concerned with recognition from the Arabs. We are here despite their lack of recognition, and will continue to be here forever, independent in our own land.

And of course you're right, despite that recognition, the Palestinian factions still regularly delegitimize and attack Israel - both violently and politically. The regular anti-Israel vitriol coming from the Arabs and Muslims hasn't stopped since the late 29th century. Indeed, it's only intensified. We don't have to go back further than a week or two (in fact rockets were shot into the Negev yesterday) to provide examples of terrorist murders. The violence has never stopped.

[Guest American Woman]

i can and i will. they are very much comparable.

Of course you "can." You can stand on your head in the middle of the freeway too, but that would be about as intelligent as comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to apartheid in South Africa.

a palestinian state will not endanger the existence of israel. it will do the opposite. no one buys that excuse anymore.

I didn't say a Palestinian state would endanger the existence of Israel, did I? How about responding to what I did say?

you miss the point. this is not about an individual. this is a collective effort from these artists and their fans from around the world to bring attention and to show that they can't support a state that has been violating a group of people's rights for decades.

It's you who misses the point. But how did it suddenly become about "their fans?" - "from around the world?" Do you really think the Israeli government cares any more about Bon Jovi et al fans than they do anyone else? Suggesting that artists cancelling performances is going to mean more to the powers that be than civilian deaths by suicide bombers is ludicrous. Every artist that ever booked a performance in Israel could cancel and I would bet a year's wages that Israel would do nothing at all in response.

Edited to add: As a side note, I'll be impressed when these artists also boycott the countries that support Israel. But ooops! Can't do that! They wouldn't make their millions, would they?

Edited June 22, 2011 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

Of course you "can." You can stand on your head in the middle of the freeway too, but that would be about as intelligent as comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to apartheid in South Africa.

I didn't say a Palestinian state would endanger the existence of Israel, did I? How about responding to what I did say?

It's you who misses the point. But how did it suddenly become about "their fans?" - "from around the world?" Do you really think the Israeli government cares any more about Bon Jovi et al fans than they do anyone else? Suggesting that artists cancelling performances is going to mean more to the powers that be than civilian deaths by suicide bombers is ludicrous. Every artist that ever booked a performance in Israel could cancel and I would bet a year's wages that Israel would do nothing at all in response.

Edited to add: As a side note, I'll be impressed when these artists also boycott the countries that support Israel. But ooops! Can't do that! They wouldn't make their millions, would they?

I wonder how many of the same artists who boycott Israel took money from ol' 'Daffy' for one of his l'il shows?

[Remiel]

Stopping apartheid didn't put South Africa or South Africans' lives in danger; it didn't endanger the existence of South Africa.

Though this may be objectively true, there is an important way, I think, in which you have not considered all the facts: a dollar to a dime says there were (and probably still are) may Afrikaners who thought the exact opposite of what you said.

[bud]

Of course you "can." You can stand on your head in the middle of the freeway too, but that would be about as intelligent as comparing the Israel-Palestine conflict to apartheid in South Africa.

stand on my head in.. right. okay.

here is what ilan pappé had to say on the comparison between the two:

There are similarities and dissimilarities. The colonialist history has many chapters in common and some of the features of the Apartheid system can be found in the Israeli policies towards its own Palestinian minority and towards those in the occupied territories. Some aspects of the occupation, however, are worse then the apartheid reality of South Africa and some aspects in the lives of Palestinian citizens in Israel, are not as bad as they were in the hey days of Apartheid. The main point of comparison to my mind is political inspiration. The anti-Apartheid movement, the ANC, the solidarity networks developed throughout the years in the West, should inspire a more focused and effect pro-Palestinian campaign. This is why there is a need to learn the history of the struggle against Apartheid, much more than dwell too long on comparing the Zionist and Apartheid systems.

It's you who misses the point. But how did it suddenly become about "their fans?" - "from around the world?" Do you really think the Israeli government cares any more about Bon Jovi et al fans than they do anyone else? Suggesting that artists cancelling performances is going to mean more to the powers that be than civilian deaths by suicide bombers is ludicrous.

it matters what people in other parts of the world think. if it didn't matter, israel would not spend millions a year on PR and in lobbying foreign governments. as i've said before, the momentum has become a difficult issue for israel. too many eyes are on israel and western governments that back israel's violations. the trend is similar to the apartheid, where the cultural boycott and divestment kicked off the beginning of the end of the criminal system.

Edited to add: As a side note, I'll be impressed when these artists also boycott the countries that support Israel.

both are wrong, but a rapist is worse than the person who stays silent while it happens. plus, how do you know that the artists are not engaged in some sort of protest against their government's support of a human rights violator?

besides artists, you also have the divestments which work by people putting pressure on organizations not to carry israeli products and or to putt out of israeli funds or products made in the occupied terroritories by israeli companies. there are a lot more examples of the success of the boycott, divestment sanctions campaign can be seen here.

the two dozens ships sailing to gaza is going to be a huge news. more attention will be given to the plight of the palestinians right ahead of a recognition of a palestinian state.

these actions make a difference.

Edited June 22, 2011 by bud

[DogOnPorch]

these actions make a difference.

So did invading Poland.

[Bob]

stand on my head in.. right. okay.

here is what ilan pappé had to say on the comparison between the two:

There are similarities and dissimilarities. The colonialist history has many chapters in common and some of the features of the Apartheid system can be found in the Israeli policies towards its own Palestinian minority and towards those in the occupied territories. Some aspects of the occupation, however, are worse then the apartheid reality of South Africa and some aspects in the lives of Palestinian citizens in Israel, are not as bad as they were in the hey days of Apartheid. The main point of comparison to my mind is political inspiration. The anti-Apartheid movement, the ANC, the solidarity networks developed throughout the years in the West, should inspire a more focused and effect pro-Palestinian campaign. This is why there is a need to learn the history of the struggle against Apartheid, much more than dwell too long on comparing the Zionist and Apartheid systems.

And even in your quote from the anti-Zionist historian Ilan Pappe, there is no real explanation of how such a false parallel between former Apartheid South Africa and contemporary Israel can be drawn. Even the Noam Chomsky quote afterwards boils down to - "it's comparable because I say so". For God's sake, the title of the book being marketed by that website is "Israel's War Against the Palestinians", the politicization and bias could not be more transparent. Ilan Pappe and Noam Chomsky clearly stopped pretending to be objective many years ago.

I find this type of argumentation is so typical of the left. If someone with credentials (in this case Ilan Pappe, and to a lesser extent, Noam Chomsky) says something that agrees with your rhetoric, then you must be right. You choose to do this rather than defend your rhetoric with a detailed explanation. The truth is you don't know much about Israel, and you know even less than about former Apartheid South Africa. The one thing you do know is that it suits your narrative of Israel being racist and evil to mischaracterize it as resembling former apartheid South Africa. Unluckily for you, nobody respects you in here.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Bob

[GostHacked]

M. Dancer, the important fact is that although the PLO recognized Israel in 1988, it never recognized Israel as a Jewish state. They might as well have recognized the Islamic state of Israel. At the same time, however, I'm not so concerned with recognition from the Arabs. We are here despite their lack of recognition, and will continue to be here forever, independent in our own land.

Tell me what is the difference between Israel as a state and Israel as a Jewish state? And tell me why the difference is important? If the PLO said .. yes Israel is a state, then it is so. But that is not enough for you? You need to be recognized as a Jewish state then you will be happy?

Jews existed before Israel, jews will continue to exist after (IF) Israel is no more.

[Bob]

Tell me what is the difference between Israel as a state and Israel as a Jewish state? And tell me why the difference is important? If the PLO said .. yes Israel is a state, then it is so. But that is not enough for you? You need to be recognized as a Jewish state then you will be happy?

Jews existed before Israel, jews will continue to exist after (IF) Israel is no more.

I am sincerely unsurprised that you don't grasp the importance of this distinction. Israel's raison d'etre is to be the home of the Jewish people. That cause is, in a sense, half of this conflict. The other half is the claim of the Arabs (particularly those who refer to themselves as "Palestinians") to this land. We claim the land to belong to us, and the Arabs view is as part of their territory. Recognition of Israel as the Jewish state would be a step forward for the Arabs reconciling themselves to the permanence and purpose of Israel. Without that, they will always make claims of grievance against Israel. The recogntion would be a step towards ending their campaign of war and terror, as opposition to Jewish independence in Israel is their primary grievance. Without recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, the metaphorical hatchet will never have been buried, as it were (in the minds of the Arabs).

Without the Jewish component in their recognition of Israel, the recognition itself is hollow - they might as well be recognizing the 23rd Arab state (and the 56th Muslim state) of Israel. There are aggressive efforts to change the character of Israel through foreign funding of interest groups inside Israel, this is particularly true in Jerusalem where foreign interests try to buy up land for Arabs. There are also widespread political/journalistic efforts to undermine the Zionist cause, maliciously arguing that Jewish independence is either unjustifiable and/or unnecessary. Recognition of the Jewish character of Israel would be a step towards countering these efforts. After all, if Jewish independence in Israel is legitimate, what right do other groups have towards undermining us practically (through changing our demographics, abusing our legal system, and attacking us externally in forums such as the UN) and politically?

Should this recognition of Israel's Jewish status be a precondition for negotiations? No, and it never has been. The truth is that who we are and what we are doesn't depend on the acceptance of our enemies. We're here despite their rejection of Jewish national rights in Jewish land. We don't need their acceptance for anything. We do need their acceptance for a genuine peace, though. At the end of the day, for any meaningful peace to arise, the Arabs must reconcile themselves with the Jewish state of Israel. There's slim to no chance of that ever occurring, as Arabs (and Muslims) overwhelmingly view Israel as being born in sin, and view this land as belonging to them (of course it does not). I don't foresee an end to this conflict outside of the long-term, if ever.

[GostHacked]

I am sincerely unsurprised that you don't grasp the importance of this distinction.Israel's raison d'etre is to be the home of the Jewish people. That cause is, in a sense, half of this conflict. The other half is the claim of the Arabs (particularly those who refer to themselves as "Palestinians") to this land.

So, from now on I'll refer to you as "Jewish", because of the way you refer to "Palestinians" as if they don't exist.

We claim the land to belong to us, and the Arabs view is as part of their territory.

So if you both lay claim to it, share it.

Recognition of Israel as the Jewish state would be a step forward for the Arabs reconciling themselves to the permanence and purpose of Israel. Without that, they will always make claims of grievance against Israel.

If you are not willing to recognize the Palestinians and their own claim to the land, what makes you think they are going to offer you the same?

The recogntion would be a step towards ending their campaign of war and terror, as opposition to Jewish independence in Israel is their primary grievance. Without recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, the metaphorical hatchet will never have been buried, as it were (in the minds of the Arabs).

Ah so it is a long standing grudge of the Jewish people then? Dude, let it go.

Without the Jewish component in their recognition of Israel, the recognition itself is hollow - they might as well be recognizing the 23rd Arab state (and the 56th Muslim state) of Israel.

So now I guess I am doing to drop the difference between Jews and Israeli, they are one in the same.

There are aggressive efforts to change the character of Israel through foreign funding of interest groups inside Israel, this is particularly true in Jerusalem where foreign interests try to buy up land for Arabs.

That happens in every country around the world, so what makes Israel so special in that regard? And here I though Arabs and other groups would be treated equal in Israel, I do recall you saying that Israel treats those people the same as the Jewish population of Israel. And at least they are being bought through the legal system in Israel, can't say that is the way the Jews have gone about the illegal settlements. But those are there for your survival as well correct?

There are also widespread political/journalistic efforts to undermine the Zionist cause, maliciously arguing that Jewish independence is either unjustifiable and/or unnecessary. Recognition of the Jewish character of Israel would be a step towards countering these efforts. After all, if Jewish independence in Israel is legitimate, what right do other groups have towards undermining us practically (through changing our demographics, abusing our legal system, and attacking us externally in forums such as the UN) and politically?

What gives you the right to do the same to others?

Should this recognition of Israel's Jewish status be a precondition for negotiations? No, and it never has been.

Wait, you are contradicting yourself here. So it's not necessary to recognize Israel as a jewish state then. Kind of blows your whole argument.

The truth is that who we are and what we are doesn't depend on the acceptance of our enemies.

Another contradiction to your argument.

We're here despite their rejection of Jewish national rights in Jewish land.

Which says you don't need anyone else to recognize Israel as a Jewish state. Blowing more of your argument.

We don't need their acceptance for anything.

So why the hell do you keep on about it? Argument is falling apart fast here Bob.

We do need their acceptance for a genuine peace, though.

Maybe recognizing them would also be a step towards genuine peace. You are not making those offers though.

At the end of the day, for any meaningful peace to arise, the Arabs must reconcile themselves with the Jewish state of Israel There's slim to no chance of that ever occurring, as Arabs (and Muslims) overwhelmingly view Israel as being born in sin, and view this land as belonging to them (of course it does not). I don't foresee an end to this conflict outside of the long-term, if ever.

Why should they recognize Israel as a state, Jewish or not, when Israel won't recognize the Palestinians or acknowledge a Palestinian state?

[Bob]

Obviously it was a waste of time addressing you. Perhaps someone else will appreciate the distinction between Israel as a state and Israel as a Jewish state. The truth is, I wrote that post for other interested parties, and your MO has been known to me for some time. I expected such a stupid reply from someone like yourself.

Beyond "recognition", acts matter. Talk is cheap, and the never-ending and ever-evolving campaign of terror and political attacks against Israel from Palestinian factions and terrorists tells us all we need to know about how sincere the "recognition" was back in 1993. So the recognition of Israel in the Declaration of Prinicples from the rat Arafat and Rabin the leftist was worth less than the paper it was written on, especially considering that Arafat never stopped inciting for Jihad until his dying breaths.

It's quite funny that you're unable to distinguish between Israel's need of recognition from the Arabs towards a Jewish Israel (we don't need it), and the need of peace for such a recognition (without recognition there can be no meaningful peace).

I'll add one thing, however, the "Palestinian" national identity is a political tool, used to imply some sort of indigenous status to "Palestine". The truth is they are Arabs, indistinguishable from most of the broader Arab collective. They have the same religions (overwhelmingly Muslim, with small portions of Christians). The eat the same food. They speak the same language. The myth of a distinct "Palestinian" identity is just a political weapon to add credence to their desire for statehood. Unfortunately, this narrative has gained widespread acceptance. Our politicians, media pundits, academics, and ordinary folks regularly speak of the "Palestinians", oblivious to the fact that this identity was largely created in the aftermath of the Six-Day War. Even stranger, this narrative has become commonplace among both Jews as well the Arabs themselves to actually perpetuate the lie of a distinct Palestinian nation - separate from other Arabs.

Of course they exist, I see them every day. Is their national identity meaningful? Not at all.

[Oleg Bach]

Let the flotilla crowd if they are that dedicated - apply for citizenship in Israel - and change the policy from with in? This is going to turn into another brutal confrontation - iron bars smacking sculls - guns going off and more mayhem that does not help anyone - wish these old hippies would grow up - If you want change - you go to the source and change it - YOU do not envoke and pro-voke violence and think that it brings peace.

[GostHacked]

Even stranger, this narrative has become commonplace among both Jews as well the Arabs themselves to actually perpetuate the lie of a distinct Palestinian nation - separate from other Arabs.

Of course they exist, I see them every day. Is their national identity meaningful? Not at all.

Your rhetoric here actually harms your argument more than helps it. Try again Bob.

[Oleg Bach]

ISRAEL - Is like a private estate. The area where the Palistinians live was like the slave quarters. Now that the servants to the Israelis are non-compliant - they should be punished. Imagine Hamas coming in and taking over and poisioning the minds of these captives with hope of personal and territorial independence - those uppity Palistinians should be put in their place.

[bud]

it used to be accept "the state of israel". now it's accept it as "a jewish state".

the neverending stalling tactics while israel continues to annex more palestinian land in the west bank and east jerusalem.

the current israeli regime and most of the people in power are not interested in moving forward. they're only interested in the status quo.

[bush_cheney2004]

it used to be accept "the state of israel". now it's accept it as "a jewish state".

Why was it ever "accept" at all. Should we "accept" Canada's right to exist?

[bud]

Why was it ever "accept" at all. Should we "accept" Canada's right to exist?

of course we should.

should we 'accept' palestinian's right to have a state?

[M.Dancer]

of course we should.

should we 'accept' palestinian's right to have a state?

No...I don't think their is some inherent right to a state. Do the Catholics of Ulster have a right to a state? What about the Irish Protestants?

Did Jefferson Davies and the CSA have a right to a state?

How about Louis Riel?

The only right there is is the right to wager all and take it or lose it.

They did. They lost. Now they have the right to hope for handouts and sympathy.

I accept their right to hope for handouts and sympathy.

[Bob]

No...I don't think their is some inherent right to a state. Do the Catholics of Ulster have a right to a state? What about the Irish Protestants?

Did Jefferson Davies and the CSA have a right to a state?

How about Louis Riel?

The only right there is is the right to wager all and take it or lose it.

They did. They lost. Now they have the right to hope for handouts and sympathy.

I accept their right to hope for handouts and sympathy.

Sounds like the "might makes right approach". I reject Palestinian nationalistic claims outright - they are Arabs like all their neighbours. There's no need for a 23rd Arab-Islamic state. They do not compose a distinct national identity entitled to national rights. Especially not at the expense of the only Jewish state.

Edited June 23, 2011 by Bob

[M.Dancer]

Sounds like the "might makes right approach".

No..not really. I would argue in the same fashion that the Slovaks didn't have a 'right' to a state. But they certainly had a right to work peacefully and create one with the agreement of their neighbours.

Gosh! Coulds you imagine that notion taking root in Gaza and the West Bank? The notion they have the right to work politically and peacefully?

Of course theres a big difference between the Slovaks and Hamas.

[DogOnPorch]

Things must be getting tougher in the Hate Israel industry these days, what with Arab leaders slaughtering their own people everywhere you look, in order to hold onto their jobs.

People were killed in Egypt, people were killed in Tunisia and Bahrain, people are still being killed in Yemen, Libya and especially Syria. They’re being killed because they’d like to change the government, which you can do in Israel just by turning up to vote. They’re being killed because they’d like to be more like Israel. How can you focus the world’s attention on the despicable state of affairs in apartheid Israel when the people in neighbouring countries insist on giving up their lives in hopes of winning similar rights to those Israel already offers? It’s almost like the protesters in all those places didn’t realize that the source of all their troubles lies in Jerusalem, not in their own countries.

---Kelly McParland: NP

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2011/06/23/kelly-mcparland-dog-days-in-the-hate-israel-industry/

Pretty much mirrors my initial opinion of these anti-Semites sailing aboard the Sea Hitler.