DogOnPorch Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 Syria is it's own state. There is no Palestine at the moment. They are a people without a country, and the occupiers have no intention of letting them get a state. Which means more attacks on Israel. Want security? Work with them. If not, then don't blame them for rocket attacks of suicide bombers. End the occupation and Israel has a real chance to bring peace into the region. Because I can't see this in any way other than a land grab on Israels part. No one has answered how the illegal settlements help the situation. Bob supports genocide/massacres to get rid of the Palestinians from the land they currently are occupied under. You're obviously not familiar with the Hamas Charter. Jews...all Jews...friends of Jews...those that 'look like' Jews...all set for Hamas's version of the Death Camps. Plus, I seem to have to constantly remind you of the origins of the 'Palestinian Cause'...which you continue to deny. So let's watch...again. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSUEx1cKUlg Yup...that's the Mufti...and that certainly looks like Hitler. Why do you even give a moment of your time to support such a thing? But you have another version of this meeting, I suppose? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Yup...that's the Mufti...and that certainly looks like Hitler. Why do you even give a moment of your time to support such a thing? But you have another version of this meeting, I suppose? If you can't invoke Hitler for modern Germany, then you cannot invoke Mufti for modern Palestinians. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 If you can't invoke Hitler for modern Germany, then you cannot invoke Mufti for modern Palestinians. Oh really? Stop me. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Bob Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 There are no distinctions betweens Arabs just like there are no distinctions between Jews. http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/ashkenazi-parent-sephardi-girls-have-a-bad-influence-on-our-girls-1.1513 There's nothing more useless than replying with a link to an irrelevant news article. If you want to explain why you buy into the narrative of a distinct nation known as the "Palestinians" separate from other Arabs, and therefore deserving of independence and self-determination through statehood, please go ahead and explain yourself. The story of some tensions between two ultra-religious communities over access to schools has nothing to do with this dialogue. You should realize that Israel doesn't make distinctions between the various Jewish groups. We don't have a Jewish state for every category of Jew within our nation. And the distinctions between various groups within the Jewish collective are much more significant than the superifical differences between Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese (for example). All Jews are welcome to live here in Israel. The Arabs, on the other hand, cling to artificial concepts of differences between them resulting in their twenty-two states. Case in point - the "Palestinians", wanting Arab state number twenty-three, at the expense of the only Jewish state. My argument is not that all Arabs are the same, rather that the Palestinians do not constitute a distinct national identity separate from other Arabs deserving of national rights. Feel free to argue otherwise. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
DogOnPorch Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 To add: does the government of Germany still call for the death of all Jews? Hmmmmmm?? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Remiel Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Oh really? Stop me. If the issue is so simple that all you have to say is " Palestinians are Nazis " and win, then why do right wing commentators is Israel not preface all of their arguments with " Palestinians are Nazis " ? Quote
GostHacked Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Oh really? Stop me. Ahh, want the cake and eat it too I see. Quote
Bob Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 If you can't invoke Hitler for modern Germany, then you cannot invoke Mufti for modern Palestinians. The difference of course being that Nazi-esque propaganda is widespread among the Arabs. Moreover, Nazi-esque beliefs are also commonplace among them, many polls of Arab public opinion have revealed this. Go watch MEMRI or Palestine Media Watch videos on YouTube and see for yourself. Or go to Islamic/Jihadi discussion forums and use Google translate. Don't take my word for it. Or go to Jihadica.com (the premier and most respected academic site for researching Islamism and associated terrorism). What you're trying to do is draw some parallel between contemporary Germany and contemporary Arabs. No such parallel can be drawn. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
GostHacked Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 To add: does the government of Germany still call for the death of all Jews? Hmmmmmm?? If they did that might make your statements somewhat relevant. Quote
Bob Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 To add: does the government of Germany still call for the death of all Jews? Hmmmmmm?? That's just a minor detail. Besides, they don't really mean it! Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
DogOnPorch Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 Ahh, want the cake and eat it too I see. If the Mufti is ancient history, then so should be the "1967 lines", etc...but, no. History starts where Jew haters say it does in this situation. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 If they did that might make your statements somewhat relevant. Oh really? How so professor? That Hamas still calls for the genocide of ALL Jews is a non-issue to you? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 If the Mufti is ancient history, then so should be the "1967 lines", etc...but, no. History starts where Jew haters say it does in this situation. So what of people like Obama calling for the return to the 1967 borders? You going to classify him as anti-semite? Quote
GostHacked Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Oh really? How so professor? That Hamas still calls for the genocide of ALL Jews is a non-issue to you? Hamas is a small faction among the Palestinian people. Probably not even democratically elected. I guess you can't really have a leader of a country if that county does not exist. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 So what of people like Obama calling for the return to the 1967 borders? You going to classify him as anti-semite? He does know some dicey individuals and was seen bowing to the Saudi king. You tell me. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 Hamas is a small faction among the Palestinian people. Probably not even democratically elected. I guess you can't really have a leader of a country if that county does not exist. It really is fun when folks start making excuses for Nazis. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Bob Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Hamas is a small faction among the Palestinian people. Probably not even democratically elected. I guess you can't really have a leader of a country if that county does not exist. Well, anti-Semitism among Arabs/Muslims transcends Hamas. Moreover, Hamas has widespread support among Arabs/Muslims worldwide. As far as their election goes, for what it's worth, their rise to power via an election in the summer of 2005 was kosher according to Jimmy Carter, who was some type of "observer". You're just making things up as you go along to defend the "Palestinians" for no other reason than to simply disagree for the sake of disagreeing. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
Remiel Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 There's nothing more useless than replying with a link to an irrelevant news article. If you want to explain why you buy into the narrative of a distinct nation known as the "Palestinians" separate from other Arabs, and therefore deserving of independence and self-determination through statehood, please go ahead and explain yourself. The story of some tensions between two ultra-religious communities over access to schools has nothing to do with this dialogue. You should realize that Israel doesn't make distinctions between the various Jewish groups. We don't have a Jewish state for every category of Jew within our nation. And the distinctions between various groups within the Jewish collective are much more significant than the superifical differences between Jordanians, Syrians, and Lebanese (for example). All Jews are welcome to live here in Israel. The Arabs, on the other hand, cling to artificial concepts of differences between them resulting in their twenty-two states. Case in point - the "Palestinians", wanting Arab state number twenty-three, at the expense of the only Jewish state. My argument is not that all Arabs are the same, rather that the Palestinians do not constitute a distinct national identity separate from other Arabs deserving of national rights. Feel free to argue otherwise. The proper location of rights is in people. Nations may said to have rights only insofar as they operate legitimately as the collective will of their constituent people. Add to that the premise that it seems we can all agree on, that the other Arab countries have treated the Palestinians like crap, and it follows that they cannot be said to legitimately represent the Palestinians, and that the people who make up the Palestinians are obviously justified in operating as their own discrete unit. The same principles apply to Israel. Israel has rights only because the Jews who live there want to have a country called Israel to express their collective will. Since we can all agree that the people in the Palestinian territories are not being welcomed to become part of the Israeli collective, then it cannot be the case that the rights of Israel extend to those Palestinians territories. The logical conclusion of all this being, of course, a Palestinian state. Quote
GostHacked Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 It really is fun when folks start making excuses for Nazis. Who here is making excuses doe Nazis? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 Who here is making excuses doe Nazis? Hamas = Nazis Anything other than wipe them out is pretty Neville Chamberlain, IMO. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 Hamas = Nazis Anything other than wipe them out is pretty Neville Chamberlain, IMO. Maybe you can point out where I make excuses for Hamas aka Nazis?? Uh huh. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted June 23, 2011 Author Report Posted June 23, 2011 Maybe you can point out where I make excuses for Hamas aka Nazis?? Uh huh. By ignoring the Palestinian Cause's Nazi past, I suppose. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
GostHacked Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 (edited) By ignoring the Palestinian Cause's Nazi past, I suppose. You suppose? Ahh so it was a guess. I'll make note of that for future reference. Edited June 23, 2011 by GostHacked Quote
Bob Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 The proper location of rights is in people. Nations may said to have rights only insofar as they operate legitimately as the collective will of their constituent people. Add to that the premise that it seems we can all agree on, that the other Arab countries have treated the Palestinians like crap, and it follows that they cannot be said to legitimately represent the Palestinians, and that the people who make up the Palestinians are obviously justified in operating as their own discrete unit. The same principles apply to Israel. Israel has rights only because the Jews who live there want to have a country called Israel to express their collective will. Since we can all agree that the people in the Palestinian territories are not being welcomed to become part of the Israeli collective, then it cannot be the case that the rights of Israel extend to those Palestinians territories. The logical conclusion of all this being, of course, a Palestinian state. You're deflecting. I asked you and GostHacked a straightforward question - please explain what differentiates the Palestinian people culturally lends credence to their claim of constituting a distinct nation, separate from the neighbouring Arab countries. I didn't expect you to seriously address the question, as it was relatively rhetorical. The Palestinians are Arabs, like most others, and we already have more than enough land and states for this nation (or group of nations, if you prefer). The concept of a distinct "Palestinian" nation is a political tool (and artificial construct) manufactured to create an illusion of a distinct nation being denied independence and self-determination. However the Arab states treat the "Palestinians" is irrelevant. It does not address my question - are the Palestinians a distinct nation from other Arab nations entitled to national rights? Them being a "discrete unit" certainly isn't the same thing as them constituting a distinct nation. Yes, they live under different circumstances than other Arabs, but that is a function of a conflict, and not evidence of them constituting a distinct Arab nation. You want Palestinians to have "rights" and become citizens of a UN-recognized state? Let them do that outside of our borders. Their illegitimate claims to national rights will not be realized at our expense, especially considering their history - we have thousands of reasons not to trust them with greater autonomy on our doorstep, and those thousands of reasons are spread out across Israel in our cemeteries. If you care about the "Palestinians" more than you do about attacking the Jewish state of Israel, start advancing the argument that they should move to Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and other countries and join the rest of the Arabs. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
Bob Posted June 23, 2011 Report Posted June 23, 2011 By ignoring the Palestinian Cause's Nazi past, I suppose. Also by pretending that Hamas represents some "minority" of Palestinians. By extension, I think GostHacked was trying to imply that anti-Semitism/anti-Zionism isn't the norm among Arab sentiment. Quote My blog - bobinisrael.blogspot.com - I am writing on it, again!
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