The Bible

[dre]

Everything is made out of atoms. It's God's building blocks!

Whats "god" made out of, and who's building blocks were those?

[betsy]

Whats "god" made out of, and who's building blocks were those?

God has always existed.

[Moonlight Graham]

God has always existed.

If so, then how did he come to be? Did somebody create him? Did he just poof out of thin air? Did he create himself? How does such a powerful & complex being just "exist" without being created by something?

Even if there is or isn't a God, doesn't it all have to a beginning point?

One day we will build a spaceship that will be able to travel to the edge of the universe, puncture this edge, and go into the other side and maybe find out. Maybe we'd find another universe on the other side. Who knows.

[betsy]

If so, then how did he come to be? Did somebody create him? Did he just poof out of thin air? Did he create himself?

If so? If so - as I replied that he's always existed - then how did he came to be?

He's always existed. No one created Him....because if He's always existed, He didn't need to be created.

How does such a powerful & complex being just "exist" without being created by something?

Just pause and re-read your question. As you'd described Him, He is "such a powerful and complex being." His power is such that He created everything! He is so "complex" that we can't even imagine understanding Him....unless He wants us to.

Even if there is or isn't a God, doesn't it all have to a beginning point?

Let me ask you this: How do you think the universe came to be?

One day we will build a spaceship that will be able to travel to the edge of the universe, puncture this edge, and go into the other side and maybe find out. Maybe we'd find another universe on the other side. Who knows.

Maybe.

Maybe science will prove you right....just the same way science is proving the Bible right.

[betsy]

FACT: A finished creation.

by Duane Gish, PH.D.

The First Law of Thermodynamics states that the total quantity of energy and matter in the universe is a constant. One form of energy may be converted into another, energy may be converted into matter, and matter may be converted into energy, but the total quantity always remains the same. You can't get something from nothing, and you can't take something and make nothing out of it.

The First Law of Thermodynamics, the most firmly established natural law in science, confirms the Biblical statement concerning a finished creation, as found in Genesis 2:1,2: "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made."

If it could be shown that somewhere in this universe matter or energy was coming into being from nothing, then this Biblical statement of a finished creation would be falsified. The opposite is true. It has been precisely verified.

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=346

[betsy]

FACT: The universe is deteriorating.

by Duane Gish, PH.D.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics Confirms Psalm 102:26

First, let us consider the science of thermodynamics: In Psalm 102:25,26, we read, "Of old hast Thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of Thy hands. They shall perish, but Thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt Thou change them, and they shall be changed."

In verse 25, we find, restated, the fact that God is the Creator of all that exists. Verse 26 then tells us something highly significant, not about the initial, created state of the universe, but about the present state of the universe. According to this Scripture, written three thousand years before the dawn of modern science, we learn that the universe is like a suit of clothes that is wearing out. In other words, the universe is running down, deteriorating, constantly becoming less and less orderly.

The fact that the universe, in its present state is deteriorating, has been fully verified by modern science. Everywhere we look, from the scale of the galaxies down to the scale of the atom, we find a universal, natural tendency of all systems to go from order to disorder; from complexity to simplicity. Thus, clusters of galaxies are dispersing as the galaxies move away from one another.

The rotation of the earth is slowing; the magnetic field of the earth is decaying. Erosion constantly wears down the features of the earth. Our bodies wear out; we die and decay to a pile of dust. Our houses, our machines wear out and are finally abandoned and replaced. Many atoms decay to simpler products, and it is even being postulated that sub-atomic particles, such as the proton, decay, though ever so slowly, into energy.

This natural tendency towards disorder is so all-pervasive and unfailing that it has been formalized as a natural law - the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=346

[betsy]

Due to the Second Law of Thermodynamics...

FACT: The universe must have had a beginning.

by Duane Gish, PH.D.

Furthermore, the fact that the universe is deteriorating establishes beyond doubt that it hasn't been here forever, because if it had, it would have run down a long time ago! This confirms another scientifically testable statement found in the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created...." This verse of Scripture states that the universe has not been here forever; that it had a beginning sometime in the past. Again, let us remember that this is not what most people believed when the Bible was written. They believed that the universe had been here forever, and would continue to be here forever. The Bible says, not so! The universe had a beginning - when God created it - and it is now running down. Thus, modern science has established the fact that what most people believed about the universe being eternal was wrong, and that the Biblical statements on the subject were precisely correct.

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=346

* Dr. Gish is Vice-President of the Institute for Creation Research

Edited May 15, 2011 by betsy

[dre]

If so? If so - as I replied that he's always existed - then how did he came to be?

He's always existed. No one created Him....because if He's always existed, He didn't need to be created.

The problem is that in one breath you say that, but in another breath you claim that humans must have been "created" and "designed". But when it comes to god who must be an even more complex and elegant creation you just lazily blurt out "oh! Well he was just THERE!".

Nobody with even a grade 3 level grasp of logic is every going to take that seriously unless theyve been mentally conditioned to believe it like you have.

Furthermore, the fact that the universe is deteriorating establishes beyond doubt that it hasn't been here forever, because if it had, it would have run down a long time ago!

OUCH! How can you even bear to QUOTE someone that makes a statement like that?

It would have "run down a long time ago?" ROFLMAO

Edited May 15, 2011 by dre

[betsy]

The problem is that in one breath you say that, but in another breath you claim that humans must have been "created" and "designed". But when it comes to god who must be an even more complex and elegant creation you just lazily blurt out "oh! Well he was just THERE!".

Nobody with even a grade 3 level grasp of logic is every going to take that seriously unless theyve been mentally conditioned to believe it like you have.

We don't see eye-to-eye because you are responding as an atheist and I am responding as a Christian. I guess it must be confusing for atheists to grasp the concept of God (Creator who created everything) who was never created but has always existed.

OUCH! How can you even bear to QUOTE someone that makes a statement like that?

It would have "run down a long time ago?" ROFLMAO

I guess it wasn't properly read and edited.

But the point he/she's trying to make is there.

So how do you think the universe came to be here?

Edited May 15, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

Also true! That ancient Hebrew cosmology comes from the ancient Sumerian's beliefs about the Universe.

How? Can you be more specific?

[betsy]

Noah's Ark is also based on the ancient Assyrian story about Gilgamesh and a flood. His farm was being flooded, so he built a boat to save himself, his family and his farm animals. Over time, this story grew into the one about Noah.

There are a lot of ancient flood stories....and that certainly could prove to skeptics that indeed Noah's global flooding truly happened.

As to the similarities between Noah's and Gilgamesh....it could perhaps over the course of time, versions changed.

In ancient time, history or events were preserved by oral traditions too.

The one thing we definitely know for sure, the Bible is very much still around today as we speak - the continuity and fluidity of its message hardly changed, if it ever did at all.

On top of that, we've got modern science continuously proving it true.

Edited May 15, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

FACT: Existence of ocean currents

This is about Matthew Fontaine Maury, named as the Father of Oceanography, and the inspiration he got from the Bible, specifically Psalm 8:8 and Ecclesiastes 1:6.

Psalm 8: 3-9 (KJV)

3When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

6Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:

7All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;

8The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.

9O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

Ecclesiastes 1:4-6 (NIV)

4 Generations come and generations go,

but the earth remains forever.

5 The sun rises and the sun sets,

and hurries back to where it rises.

6 The wind blows to the south

and turns to the north;

round and round it goes,

ever returning on its course.

Excerpt from an article by Dr. Duane Gish….

Maury, on the basis of the Bible, concluded that there are well-established wind circuits, and that there are literally "paths in the sea" - that is, definite currents in the ocean. He reasoned that if these wind currents and ocean currents could be located and plotted, this information would be of great value to marine navigators. Utilizing this information, the sailing vessels could be directed along routes that would take advantage of these sea and air currents, reducing by many days the time required to traverse the seas.

Maury found and plotted the wind circuits and the ocean currents. The ocean currents include, for example, the great Gulf Current - a "path in the sea" forty miles wide and 2000 feet deep flowing from the Gulf of Mexico up through the Atlantic. This current has a tremendous influence on the climate of England, Ireland, Europe, and the Scandinavian countries. The average winter temperature on the west coast of Norway, for example, is about two degrees centigrade, or two degrees above freezing. Ordinarily, of course, we would expect far lower temperatures for a country that far north.

Other paths of the seas that come to mind are the California and the Japanese currents. The California current brings cold water from Alaska down along the California coast. As a result, even those of us living in the San Diego area do not have warm ocean water to swim in as they do, for example, in the Hawaiian Islands. This cool water, furthermore, dissipates tropical storms that would otherwise push their way out of the south Pacific into the southern California area. As a result, California rarely receives rain in the summer months.

Maury's native state, the State of Virginia, has acknowledged the great debt navigation owes him, having erected monuments to his memory. On these monuments may be found a plaque that reads as follows: "Matthew Fontaine Maury, Pathfinder of the Seas, the Genius Who First Snatched from the Ocean and Atmosphere the Secret of Their Laws. His Inspiration, Holy Writ, Psalm 8:8, Psalm 107:23,24, and Ecclesiastes 1:6."

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=346

Maury had known of the Psalms of David since childhood. In "A Life of Matthew Fontaine Maury; compiled by his daughter, Diana Fontaine Maury Corbin (1888)" she states on page 7-8, "Matthew's father was very exact in the religious training of his family, now numbering five sons and four daughters, viz., John Minor, Mary, Walker, Matilda, Betsy, Richard Launcelot, Matthew Fontaine, Catherine, and Charles. He would assemble them night and morning to read the Psalter for the day, verse and verse about; and in this way, so familiar did this barefooted boy [M. F. Maury] become with the Psalms of David, that in after life he could cite a quotation, and give chapter and verse, as if he had the Bible open before him.

From Wikipedia

This monument is on the west end of Monument Avenue. Matthew Fontaine Maury faces EAST towards the Atlantic that he charted both beneath the surface and on the surface. Placed here exclusively for Wikipedia.

Specifics about image. Beside Maury's left foot is the Holy Bible that he lived by daily. Also, there is his book, Physical Geography of the Sea with the Bible.

Maury's book is the 1st modern oceanography book that was constantly updated and went through several editions. It has been translated into more than 18 languages. Because it is the first fully detailed (with color plates) Maury came to be called both "Father of Oceanography" but also "Father of Modern Oceanograpgy" and Naval Meteorology."

M.F.Maury holds his "Wind and Current" charts he created in his left hand and a pen and compass in his right hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Matthew_Fontaine_Maury_Statue.jpg

Edited May 15, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

FACT: SCIENCE REMAINS BAFFLED!

As I was doing my research on a specific fact, I stumbled upon the reference/footnote section of this particular site. The following entries provide a "snapshot" of confusions, puzzlements and awe as some of these scientists struggle to understand how it all began.

Excerpts from the section: References and Footnotes

. [Astronomer] Richard S. Ellis notes that the new findings also hint at a puzzle. His team estimates that the distant galaxies, which are too tiny to be clearly resolved by Hubble, are making stars at a puny rate. In some cases, that rate is as low as the mass equivalent of 0.0025 suns per year. According to current models, that rate couldn’t have generated enough ultraviolet starlight for a critical milestone in the evolution of the universe—the wrenching apart of neutral hydrogen into their subatomic constituents. Ron Cowen, “Hubble’s New Finds Go the Distance,” Science News, Vol 176, 10 October 2009, p. 8.

6. "The masses of these early black holes are inferred from their [quasar] luminosities to be >109 solar masses, which is a difficult theoretical challenge [for the big bang theory] to explain." Rennan Barkana and Abraham Loeb, “Spectral Signature of Cosmological Infall of Gas Around the First Quasars,” Nature, Vol. 421, 23 January 2003, p. 341.

"The daunting problem for theories of structure formation in the Universe is to understand how such huge black holes [3 billion solar masses] and the vast reservoirs of gaseous fuel were assembled so soon after the Big Bang ..." Edwin L. Turner, “Through a Lens Brightly,” Nature, 27 June 2002, p. 905.

"... such black holes indeed formed early in the history of the universe and were already devouring matter voraciously a mere billion years after the Big Bang." Ron Cowen, “Mature Before Their Time,” Science News, Vol. 163, 1 March 2003, p. 139.

7. "But the standard model [the big bang theory] still can’t easily account for a large number of mature or massive galaxies in the early universe." Ibid.

u "But this uniformity [in the cosmic microwave background (CMB) radiation] is difficult to reconcile with the obvious clumping of matter into galaxies, clusters of galaxies and even larger features extending across vast regions of the universe, such as ‘walls’ and ‘bubbles’." Ivars Peterson, “Seeding the Universe,” Science News, Vol. 137, 24 March 1990, p. 184.

8. "Standard cosmological models implied that matter in the universe was not concentrated tightly enough to have formed black holes so early on. Clearly the models were wrong." Michael Lemonick, “The Great Cosmic Census,” Discover, March 2009, p. 64.

9. "More embarrassing to astrophysicists is our lack of understanding of black hole jets—phenomena in which the forces near a supermassive black hole somehow conspire to spew out material at ultrarelativistic speeds (up to 99.98 percent of light speed). These amazing outflows traverse distances larger than galaxies, ..." Avery E. Broderick and Abraham Loeb, “Portrait of a Black Hole,” Scientific American, Vol. 301, December 2009, p. 44.

10. "For reasons not fully understood, it appears that the sizes of central black holes and the masses of their galaxies, especially the central bulges, are almost perfectly in step." Charles Petit, “Ultra Massive: As Big As It Gets,” Science News, Vol. 174, 25 October 2008, p. 20.

11. "These black holes at the centers of galaxies are big (as black holes go). But compared with a galaxy, they’re really small. So they don’t have that much of an effect; we have nothing to fear. They only affect the very closest stars to them. But recently it was observed that the mass of a central black hole correlates with the mass of the galaxy around it! Before that observation, we didn’t know if the black hole formed first and then the galaxy formed around it, or if the galaxy formed first and then the black hole formed from the galaxy. The correlation means that the black hole and galaxy had to form together. They couldn’t be separate events because a black hole can’t affect an object as big as a galaxy. Whatever gave rise to that galaxy had to give rise to the black hole." Andrea Ghez, “Frontiers of Astronomy,” Discover, May 2009, p. 44.

12. "The black hole’s inactivity [today] suggests that the central few light years doesn’t contain enough raw material to make stars. And the enormous gravitational tidal forces around the black hole would seem to prohibit stars from forming even if the material were there: it’s hard for a cloud of gas to contract into a star under its own gravity when something that weighs as much as four million stars is sitting next door." Jeff Kanipe, “A Long Time Ago, in a Galaxy Not So Far Away,” Nature, Vol. 446, 5 April 2007, p. 601.

"... the stars we studied to prove that there was a black hole turned out to be very young. Young stars have absolutely no right to be next to a black hole because a black hole should shear them apart [if they evolved]. We have no idea how these stars formed." Ghez, p. 43.

13. "In principle, this could have occurred if the density of the gases in the centre of the Galaxy was much higher in the past. Higher density would allow clumps in the clouds to collapse to form stars, even in the presence of a strong gravitational field [of a black hole]." Ibid., p. 602.

14. "Astrophysicists can model the accreting material to some extent, but it is unclear how gas in the accretion flow migrates from an orbit at a large radius to one near the horizon ..." Avery E. Broderick and Abraham Loeb, p. 44.

15. "The discovery of massive, evolved galaxies at much greater distances than expected—and hence at earlier times in the history of the Universe—is a challenge to our understanding of how galaxies form." Gregory D. Wirth, “Old Before Their Time,” Nature, Vol. 430, 8 July 2004, p. 149.

"Until now, we wouldn’t think that you could make galaxies emerge that early in the universe.” George Helou, as quoted by Alex Hutchinson, “New and Old Galaxies Show Up in All the Wrong Places, Discover, January 2006, p. 61.

16. "Thirty-seven of the brightest galaxies were detected, including a quasar, but thousands of galaxies were probably in the string, according to astronomer Dr. Paul Francis who heads the team. But none of the existing computer simulation models were able to reproduce galaxy strings as large as the one the team found. ‘We are looking back four-fifths of the way to the beginning of the universe and the existence of this galaxy string will send astrophysicists around the world back to the drawing board to re-examine [big bang] theories of the formation of the universe,’ Francis said. The simulations tell us that you cannot take the matter in the early universe and line it up in strings this large. There simply hasn’t been enough time since the Big Bang for it to form structures this colossal." Science & Space, “Galaxy Find Stirs Big Bang Debate” on 8 January 2004 at www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/space/01/08/galaxies.find.

"The existence of quiescent, extended gaseous disks around a handful of dwarf irregular galaxies is puzzling.” Liese van Zee, “A Large Gas Disk Around a Small Galaxy, National Radio Astronomy Observatory Newsletter, Issue 103, April 2005, p. 13.

19. "Other studies of elliptical galaxies have found additional signs of recent merging. In some ellipticals, for example, the central region rotates in one direction, while the outer parts spin the other way. Such a countervailing rotation pattern would be difficult to explain if these galaxies formed all of one piece but could come about quite naturally from a merger." [emphasis added] Barnes et al., p. 41.

20. "Hotter stars ‘are not predicted by normal stellar evolution, so the presence of the He II nebulas is a bit of a mystery comments Garnett ...” Donald R. Garnett, as quoted by Ron Cowen, “Gorgeous Gas,” Science News, Vol. 163, 24 May 2003, p. 328.

21. "No one knows what dark matter is, but they know what it is not. It’s not part of the ‘standard model’ of physics that weaves together everything that is known about ordinary matter and its interactions." Jenny Hogan, “Welcome to the Dark Side,” Nature, Vol. 448, 19 July 2007, p. 241.

u "We know little about that sea. The terms we use to describe its components, ‘dark matter’ and ‘dark energy,’ serve mainly as expressions of our ignorance." David B. Cline, “The Search for Dark Matter,” Scientific American, Vol. 288, March 2003, p. 52.

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ19.html

Then I read this passage from the Bible:

Isaiah 44:24-25 (King James Version)

24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

Praise the Lord!

Edited May 15, 2011 by betsy

[Saipan]

There are a lot of ancient flood stories....and that certainly could prove to skeptics that indeed Noah's global flooding truly happened.

As to the similarities between Noah's and Gilgamesh....it could perhaps over the course of time,

Not global but very large areas. So to people with no communication and fast transport it may well be "global". The oceans are now several hundred feet higher. And will be several hundred feet lower with each ice age. There are also intermediate variations such as 4 to 6 thousand years ago during Holocene Maximum with temps higher than today (albeit without any coal burning and SUVs)

As for Higher Intelligence - God. It's beyond our comprehention at the present time, possibly forever ('though forever is rather too long ). About same as two ants debating who put that cement sidewalk there, to what purpose, or how cement is made.

[betsy]

There are a lot of ancient flood stories....and that certainly could prove to skeptics that indeed Noah's global flooding truly happened.

As to the similarities between Noah's and Gilgamesh....it could perhaps over the course of time, versions changed.

In ancient time, history or events were preserved by oral traditions too.

Not global but very large areas. So to people with no communication and fast transport it may well be "global".

Well apparently there are indeed ancient flood stories/legends - the "global" kind - from various parts of the world.

Excerpts from "Flood Legends From Around The World...."

Native global flood stories are documented as history or legend in almost every region on earth. Old world missionaries reported their amazement at finding remote tribes already possessing legends with tremendous similarities to the Bible's accounts of the worldwide flood. H.S. Bellamy in Moons, Myths and Men estimates that altogether there are over 500 Flood legends worldwide. Ancient civilizations such as (China, Babylonia, Wales, Russia, India, America, Hawaii, Scandinavia, Sumatra, Peru, and Polynesia) all have their own versions of a giant flood.

Africa

Southwest Tanzania

Once upon a time the rivers began to flood. The god told two people to get into a ship. He told them to take lots of seed and to take lots of animals. The water of the flood eventually covered the mountains. Finally the flood stopped. Then one of the men, wanting to know if the water had dried up let a dove loose. The dove returned. Later he let loose a hawk which did not return. Then the men left the boat and took the animals and the seeds with them.

Asia

China

The Chinese classic called the Hihking tells about "the family of Fuhi," that was saved from a great flood. This ancient story tells that the entire land was flooded; the mountains and everything, however one family survived in a boat. The Chinese consider this man the father of their civilization. This record indicates that Fuhi, his wife, three sons, and three daughters were the only people that escaped the great flood. It is claimed, that he and his family were the only people alive on earth, and repopulated the world.

Babylon

Gilgamesh .....

Chaldean

There was a man by the name of Xisuthrus. The god Chronos warned Xisuthrus of a coming flood and told him to build a boat. The boat was to be 5 stadia by 2 stadia. In this boat Xisuthrus was to put his family, friends and two of each animal (male and female). The flood came. When the waters started to recede he let some birds loose. They came back and he noticed they had mud on their feet. He tried again with the same results. When he tried the third time the birds did not return. Assuming the water had dried up the people got out of the boat and offered sacrifices to the gods.

India

A long time ago lived a man named Manu. Manu, while washing himself, saved a small fish from the jaws of a large fish. The fish told Manu, "If you care for me until I am full grown I will save you from terrible things to come". Manu asked what kind of terrible things. The fish told Manu that a great flood would soon come and destroy everything on the earth. The fish told Manu to put him in a clay jar for protection. The fish grew and each time he outgrew the clay jar Manu gave him a larger one. Finally the fish became a ghasha, one of the largest fish in the world. The fish instructed Manu to build a large ship since the flood was going to happen very soon. As the rains started Manu tied a rope from the ship to the ghasha. The fish guided the ship as the waters rose. The whole earth was covered by water. When the waters began subsiding the ghasha led Manu's ship to a mountaintop.

Australia

There is a legend of a flood called the Dreamtime flood. Riding on this flood was the woramba, or the Ark Gumana. In this ark was Noah, Aborigines, and various animals. This ark eventually came to rest in the plain of Djilinbadu where it can still be found. They claim that the white mans story about the ark landing in the middle east is a lie that was started to keep the aborigines in subservience. This legend is undoubtedly the product of aboriginal legends merging with those of visiting missionaries, and there does not appear to be any native flood stories from Australia.

Europe

Greece

A long time ago, perhaps before the golden age was over, humans became proud. This bothered Zeus as they kept getting worse. Finally Zeus decided that he would destroy all humans. Before he did this Prometheus, the creator of humans, warned his human son Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha. Prometheus then placed this couple in a large wooden chest. The rains started and lasted nine days and nights until the whole world was flooded. The only thing that was not flooded was the peaks of Mount Parnassus and Mount Olympus. Mount Olympus is the home of the gods. The wooden chest came to rest on Mount Parnassus. Deucalion and his wife Pyrrha got out and saw that everything was flooded. They lived on provisions from the chest until the waters subsided. At Zeus' instruction they re-populated the earth.

North America

Mexico

The Toltec natives have a legend telling that the original creation lasted for 1716 years, and was destroyed by a flood and only one family survived.

Aztec

A man named Tapi lived a long time ago. Tapi was a very pious man. The creator told Tapi to build a boat that he would live in. He was told that he should take his wife, a pair of every animal that was alive into this boat. Naturally everyone thought he was crazy. Then the rain started and the flood came. The men and animals tried to climb the mountains but the mountains became flooded as well. Finally the rain ended. Tapi decided that the water had dried up when he let a dove loose that did not return.

United States

The Ojibwe natives who have lived in Minnesota USA since approximately 1400AD also have a creation and flood story that closely parallels the Biblical account. "There came a time when the harmonious way of life did not continue. Men and women disrespected each other, families quarreled and soon villages began arguing back and forth. This saddened Gitchie Manido [the Creator] greatly, but he waited. Finally, when it seemed there was no hope left, Creator decided to purify Mother Earth through the use of water. The water came, flooding the Earth, catching all of creation off guard. All but a few of each living thing survived." Then it tells how Waynaboozhoo survived by floating on a log in the water with various animals.

Ojibwe - Ancient native American creation story tells of world wide flood.

Delaware Indians - In the pristine age, the world lived at peace; but an evil spirit came and caused a great flood. The earth was submerged. A few persons had taken refuge on the back of a turtle, so old that his shell had collected moss. A loon flew over their heads and was entreated to dive beneath the water and bring up land. It found only a bottomless sea. Then the bird flew far away, came back with a small portion of earth in its bill, and guided the tortoise to a place where there was a spot of dry land.

South America

Inca

During the period of time called the Pachachama people became very evil. They got so busy coming up with and performing evil deeds they neglected the gods. Only those in the high Andes remained uncorrupted. Two brothers who lived in the highlands noticed their llamas acting strangely. They asked the llamas why and were told that the stars had told the llamas that a great flood was coming. This flood would destroy all the life on earth. The brothers took their families and flocks into a cave on the high mountains. It started to rain and continued for four months. As the water rose the mountain grew keeping its top above the water. Eventually the rain stopped and the waters receded. The mountain returned to its original height. The shepherds repopulated the earth. The llamas remembered the flood and that is why they prefer to live in the highland areas.

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

Edited May 15, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

As for Higher Intelligence - God. It's beyond our comprehention at the present time, possibly forever ('though forever is rather too long ).

Yes, that's true. He said, "My thoughts are not your thoughts. My ways are not your ways."

We won't comprehend the how and the why....not unless He let us know - and how much he wants us to know, and when.

Do you consider yourself an agnostic? Just asking...

About same as two ants debating who put that cement sidewalk there, to what purpose, or how cement is made.

Except that the other "ant" (science) seemed to have been created for the very purpose of Him making a clear statement, and supporting this "ant" (Bible).

Edited May 15, 2011 by betsy

[GostHacked]

FACT

Just another failed thread started by Betsy.

[kimmy]

FACT: A finished creation.

(...)

If it could be shown that somewhere in this universe matter or energy was coming into being from nothing, then this Biblical statement of a finished creation would be falsified. The opposite is true. It has been precisely verified.

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=346

So... if something were created spontaneously, it would obviously be a complete contradiction of not just a fundamental law of physics, but also of the Bible itself?

That's interesting. I have just read an account of a woman being transformed into salt. Salt is twice as dense as a human body. So, assuming the woman weighed 50kg before being transformed, that leaves us with a 100kg salt statue... meaning the inexplicable creation of 50kg of matter. Does that falsify the Biblical statement of finished creation?

-k

Edited May 15, 2011 by kimmy

[Sir Bandelot]

FACT

Just another failed thread started by Betsy.

I think the thread is rather interesting because it raises some very curious things about ancient writings. This seemingly advanced scientific knowledge appears in the bible, and other ancient writings as well. It raises questions about the level of scientific knowledge of pre-historic man, for whom we have no clear history. I have wondered if there was an ancient civilization, more advanced than those that came later.

Some of the writings seem to contain scientific information about the universe, that modern science has only recently come to understand. But as often is the case in ancient writings, information is couched in analogies and parables. "There's no calculus", say the frontal-lobists, "therefore how can it be accepted as scientifically valid?"

Much more important than mere theory, which is calculations based on approximation of an in-precise universe, is the question how do we know these things. The human brain is a strange device that's capable of many kinds of sensory input, some of which we barely realize. Somehow, they sensed the truth.

[Sir Bandelot]

About same as two ants debating who put that cement sidewalk there, to what purpose, or how cement is made.

I like the ant analogy, because it shows how things can take place on entirely other dimensions for which the individual may be completely unaware, nor even capable of awareness were it explained to them. There's just no way to know certain things. Given enough time, the ants could some day make concrete. But they'd have to evolve into something completely else, first.

[scouterjim]

There are a lot of ancient flood stories....and that certainly could prove to skeptics that indeed Noah's global flooding truly happened.

As to the similarities between Noah's and Gilgamesh....it could perhaps over the course of time, versions changed.

In ancient time, history or events were preserved by oral traditions too.

The one thing we definitely know for sure, the Bible is very much still around today as we speak - the continuity and fluidity of its message hardly changed, if it ever did at all.

On top of that, we've got modern science continuously proving it true.

A great many superstitions and silly beliefs are still around today, so that proves nothing.

[betsy]

The one thing we definitely know for sure, the Bible is very much still around today as we speak - the continuity and fluidity of its message hardly changed, if it ever did at all.

On top of that, we've got modern science continuously proving it true.

A great many superstitions and silly beliefs are still around today, so that proves nothing.

Can you cite one ancient book like the Bible containing some "silly" beliefs that's now being proven by science to be true?

[betsy]

So... if something were created spontaneously, it would obviously be a complete contradiction of not just a fundamental law of physics, but also of the Bible itself?

That's interesting. I have just read an account of a woman being transformed into salt. Salt is twice as dense as a human body. So, assuming the woman weighed 50kg before being transformed, that leaves us with a 100kg salt statue... meaning the inexplicable creation of 50kg of matter. Does that falsify the Biblical statement of finished creation?

-k

Was the woman turned completely into salt...or just partly salt....or just encased in salt?

Anyway, have you lived near the ocean? There's salt in the air....at least near sea water. The way I understand that law, it's like matter and energy can be "recycled," if that's the right term. Well I dunno. I don't have the answer on that....maybe I'll stumble on it one of these days.

Edited May 15, 2011 by betsy

[betsy]

FACT: EXPANDING UNIVERSE

According to science, the universe is expanding, or "stretching out." There are at least 11 passages in the Bible written by five different authors that talked about God "stretching out the heavens," and all were made in the context of creation. These are all taken from the New International Version.

Note:

The Hebrew word for stretched is natah. It does not mean an explosion, a flinging out, or the type of stretching that encounters increasing resistance, as with a spring or rubber band. Natah is more like the effortless reaching out of one’s hand.

From: Center for Scientific Creation

Zeccheraih 12:1

1 A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel.

The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares:

Jeremiah 10:12 (and also Jer 51:15)

12 But God made the earth by his power;

he founded the world by his wisdom

and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.

Psalm 104:2

2 The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment;

he stretches out the heavens like a tent

Job 9:8

8 He alone stretches out the heavens

and treads on the waves of the sea.

Isaiah 40:21-22

21 Do you not know?

Have you not heard?

Has it not been told you from the beginning?

Have you not understood since the earth was founded?

22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,

and its people are like grasshoppers.

He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,

and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Isaiah 42:5

5 This is what God the LORD says—

the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out,

who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it,

who gives breath to its people,

and life to those who walk on it:

Isaiah 44:24

24 “This is what the LORD says—

your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:

I am the LORD,

the Maker of all things,

who stretches out the heavens,

who spreads out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 45:12

12 It is I who made the earth

and created mankind on it.

My own hands stretched out the heavens;

I marshaled their starry hosts.

Isaiah 48:12-13

12 “Listen to me, Jacob,

Israel, whom I have called:

I am he;

I am the first and I am the last.

13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth,

and my right hand spread out the heavens;

when I summon them,

they all stand up together.

Isaiah 51:12-13

12 “I, even I, am he who comforts you.

Who are you that you fear mere mortals,

human beings who are but grass,

13 that you forget the LORD your Maker,

who stretches out the heavens

and who lays the foundations of the earth,

that you live in constant terror every day

because of the wrath of the oppressor,

who is bent on destruction?

For where is the wrath of the oppressor?

For that line repeated at least 11 times , and in the right context.....truly, only the Designer could've known about that!

Edited May 15, 2011 by betsy

[cybercoma]

We don't see eye-to-eye because you are responding as an atheist and I am responding as a Christian. I guess it must be confusing for atheists to grasp the concept of God (Creator who created everything) who was never created but has always existed.

Most atheists were raised in religious families. I'm sure they have absolutely no problem grasping the concept of God. It's people like you that are evidently incapable of grasping the concept that most people don't make decisions and live their lives based on a whim of faith.