Freedom of religion? Not for innocent Muslims

[Black Dog]

Exactly. Which means he's never kicked Muslims off before. You don't honestly believe he's never had a Muslim on his plane before, do you?

Point is, past behaviour is not indicative of future behaviour. He never did it before? Great. That's not really relevant since he did it now.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Black Dog

[Guest American Woman]

Point is, past behaviour is not indicative of future behaviour. He never did it before? Great. That's not really relevant since he did it now.

Yes, it is relevant. Obviously he's not a bigot who refuses to let Muslims fly on his plane because of their faith. So why did he not allow these two to board? It's not saying his reasons are valid, only that he must have had his reasons other than being a bigot who doesn't want to let Muslims fly on his plane because of their faith.

I find it ironic that people are jumping to conclusions and pegging him, along with the entire US, as they criticize him for doing it regarding Muslims.

Edited May 10, 2011 by American Woman

[Black Dog]

Yes, it is relevant. Obviously he's not a bigot who refuses to let Muslims fly on his plane because of their faith.

Not necessarily. What do we actually know about the pilot? How long has been flying? What's his background? Another point: perhaps the captain himself wasn't bigoted, but was responding to concerns from other passengers (which makes them the bigoted rubes). In any case, there's alternative explanations that don't involve "something else must have happened that we don't know about."

[scouterjim]

Yes, it is relevant. Obviously he's not a bigot who refuses to let Muslims fly on his plane because of their faith. So why did he not allow these two to board? It's not saying his reasons are valid, only that he must have had his reasons other than being a bigot who doesn't want to let Muslims fly on his plane because of their faith.

I find it ironic that people are jumping to conclusions and pegging him, along with the entire US, as they criticize him for doing it regarding Muslims.

I'm not pegging all Americans. I am pegging the far right wing who seem to feel that only Christians of their ilk deserve religious freedom.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm not pegging all Americans. I am pegging the far right wing who seem to feel that only Christians of their ilk deserve religious freedom.

What does religious freedom have to do with commercial air travel? Can I sacrifice a goat in a lavatory?

Edited May 10, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[guyser]

What does religious freedom have to do with commercial air travel? Can I sacrifice a goat in a lavatory?

I suppose you could.

They might draw the line at the bonfire to cook it.

[bud]

Why? The pilot does not work for the TSA. The deplaned passengers can seek a civil suit if they wish, not a federal crime for "civil rights" violations. Flying on commercial aircraft is not a right.

you can try to brush this as 'nothing to see here', however, reality is that the american culture is making a u-turn and becoming more intolerant towards muslims. the main reason is ignorance and the acceptance of the fear mongering they repeatedly see in the mainstream media.

[Guest American Woman]

Not necessarily. What do we actually know about the pilot?

Nothing, yet people have made all kinds of speculations about him, while decrying doing the same about Muslims. Ironic, eh?

How long has been flying? What's his background?

Good question. Perhaps the same questions apply to the Imams? Or no? Is this only a one-sided affair?

Another point: perhaps the captain himself wasn't bigoted, but was responding to concerns from other passengers (which makes them the bigoted rubes).

Of course it does. Fear, based on past events, doesn't make them fearful, but "bigoted rubes." While making similar deductions about the pilot proves how tolerant one is.

In any case, there's alternative explanations that don't involve "something else must have happened that we don't know about."

Of course there is. But by the same token, that doesn't rule out he "something else may have happened that we don't know about" explanation. Agreed?

[Guest American Woman]

I'm not pegging all Americans. I am pegging the far right wing who seem to feel that only Christians of their ilk deserve religious freedom.

Of course you are, as you are pegging the U.S.: "I guess freedom of religion in the US .........." to quote.

[Guest American Woman]

you can try to brush this as 'nothing to see here', however, reality is that the american culture is making a u-turn and becoming more intolerant towards muslims. the main reason is ignorance and the acceptance of the fear mongering they repeatedly see in the mainstream media.

Or perhaps the main reason is the acts of terrorism that they are repeatedly seeing carried out in the world. Ya think that might have something to do with it? Just a wee bit, perhaps?

Nah. You're right. It's completely ignorance and bigotry. It's all the fault of the American culture.

[scouterjim]

Of course you are, as you are pegging the U.S.: "I guess freedom of religion in the US .........." to quote.

As I pointed out, freedom of religion is supposed to mean ALL in the US, not just a certain segment. When one segment tries to prevent another from following their faith, that is bigotry. Watch the news clips of "good Christians" trying to stop the building of mosques. These men were singled out, and deplaned due to their faith. No other reason.

[bush_cheney2004]

you can try to brush this as 'nothing to see here', however, reality is that the american culture is making a u-turn and becoming more intolerant towards muslims. the main reason is ignorance and the acceptance of the fear mongering they repeatedly see in the mainstream media.

LOL! "American culture" indeed...don't make me open up a can of whup ass on "Canadian culture" and intolerance....starting with Americans!

[Guest American Woman]

As I pointed out, freedom of religion is supposed to mean ALL in the US, not just a certain segment. When one segment tries to prevent another from following their faith, that is bigotry. Watch the news clips of "good Christians" trying to stop the building of mosques. These men were singled out, and deplaned due to their faith. No other reason.

Now one pilot is "a certain segment" in the US? As you criticize the pilot for stereotyping? Seriously. Are you so blind that you don't see you are doing just that yourself? Good Lord.

But again. Their "faith," what they believe, had nothing to do with it, while what has been done in the name of their faith had everything to do with it. Fear based on past events and bigotry based on nothing other than 'I don't agree with this person's belief' or 'I don't like the way this person dresses' or 'I don't like the color of that person's skin' are two different things. I'm not saying what the pilot did was justified, but making it into something it wasn't isn't right either.

[bush_cheney2004]

I suppose you could.

They might draw the line at the bonfire to cook it.

Egads! That's a violation of my religious freedom! Those damn intolerant Americans....Air Canada always allows me to sacrifice goats right in the aisle.

[Guest American Woman]

LOL! "American culture" indeed...don't make me open up a can of whup ass on "Canadian culture" and intolerance....starting with Americans!

Oh come on. Everyone knows it's intolerant and bigoted to stereotype Muslims while it's the epitome of tolerance and righteousness to stereotype Americans.

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh come on. Everyone knows it's intolerant and bigoted to stereotype Muslims while it's the epitome of tolerance and righteousness to stereotype Americans.

Well, to be fair, they were only distracted by a national election for a few weeks, so now it's time to get back to some good 'ol fashioned 'merkin bashing...yes suh! Leave dem dare Muslims alone!

Still, I wonder how the Sikh's are doing with those motorcycle helmet laws in Canada?

[Shady]

Now one pilot is "a certain segment" in the US? As you criticize the pilot for stereotyping? Seriously. Are you so blind that you don't see you are doing just that yourself? Good Lord.

Exactly. He can make that conclusion from one pilot. But thousands of terrorist acts committed by Muslims gets the "they aren't all terrorists" response. Go figure.

[jbg]

you can try to brush this as 'nothing to see here', however, reality is that the american culture is making a u-turn and becoming more intolerant towards muslims. the main reason is ignorance and the acceptance of the fear mongering they repeatedly see in the mainstream media.

How about part of the reason being the fact that September 11, 2001, March 11, 2003 (or 2004), and July 11, 2005 were unspeakable horrors directed at the general public. The Oklahama City bombing was a "one of a kind" incident in retrospect. And Nichols got his training from Muslims in the Phillipines.

Facts are facts.

[Black Dog]

Nothing, yet people have made all kinds of speculations about him, while decrying doing the same about Muslims. Ironic, eh?

Only in the Alanis sense. See, there's a difference between speculating about an individual's character based on his actions and speculating about an entire subset of humanity numbering in the billions based on the actions of some of their membership.

Good question. Perhaps the same questions apply to the Imams? Or no? Is this only a one-sided affair?

Why? What have they been accused of?

Of course it does. Fear, based on past events, doesn't make them fearful, but "bigoted rubes." .

DO you cross the street when you see a black person coming your way? This is the same thing, basically.

While making similar deductions about the pilot proves how tolerant one is.

See point #1

Of course there is. But by the same token, that doesn't rule out he "something else may have happened that we don't know about" explanation. Agreed?

We're talking about the scale of probabilities here. If there was a genuine security concern based on an incident, I guran-damn-tee we'd have heard about it from the airline, the TSA or law enforcement. Nothing that has been reported in the days since this story came out support the "incident" theory in the slightest.

[scouterjim]

Exactly. He can make that conclusion from one pilot. But thousands of terrorist acts committed by Muslims gets the "they aren't all terrorists" response. Go figure.

Did I ever say I supported Muslim terrorists? I decry their actions as I do those of Christian terrorists (note how little is ever said about them, even though they DO exist). However, I am also wise enough to know that not all Christians are terrorists, just as all Muslims are not terrorists. Unfortunately, too many people do think all Muslims ARE terrorists.

[Guest American Woman]

Only in the Alanis sense. See, there's a difference between speculating about an individual's character based on his actions and speculating about an entire subset of humanity numbering in the billions based on the actions of some of their membership.

Yet you don't know the basis for his actions, so speculating about his character falls into the same category, especially since he's never refused to fly Muslims in the past; so your claim that he's speculating on the entire subset of humanity rather than just these two is just that - speculation of the same order that you are accusing him of/criticizing him for.

Why? What have they been accused of?

We don't know what set this pilot off. They didn't have to end up being accused of anything in order for them to have acted in such a was as to make him uneasy. As already stated, he hasn't refused to allow Muslims to board his plane in the past, so seems to me fair-minded people would at least question why he did this time rather than jumping to all kinds of conclusions about how he feels about all Muslims.

DO you cross the street when you see a black person coming your way? This is the same thing, basically.

Hardly the same thing, not even "basically," since this pilot hasn't prevented Muslims from boarding in the past. The scenario would be more like I don't cross the street when I see a black person coming, yet on one occasion there's something about the person who gives me an uneasy feeling, so I do cross the street that one time. It has nothing to do with black people because I would do the if the person were white. Or Hispanic. Or Hebrew. Or Muslim. Or whatever.

See point #1

See my response above.

We're talking about the scale of probabilities here. If there was a genuine security concern based on an incident, I guran-damn-tee we'd have heard about it from the airline, the TSA or law enforcement. Nothing that has been reported in the days since this story came out support the "incident" theory in the slightest.

I'm not saying there was anything that presented a genuine security concern to anyone except the pilot. Chances are the person in the scenario above, be it a black, white, Hispanic, Muslim, or whatever person didn't present an actual threat either, yet I'm going to act on my feelings if I think it endangers my life.

Again, I repeat, I'm not saying refusing to let them board was the right thing to do, but it's not enough evidence to have accused, found guilty, and hanged him for being a bigot, for being anti-Islamic, for accusing him of refusing to let them board just because of their faith. To do all that is to judge him same as you are accusing him of judging all Muslims. If you can't see that, I'm not surprised.

Furthermore, you didn't criticize scouterjim for putting his speculations regarding this one pilot on the US, while criticizing those who do the same regarding Muslims. And again, I'm not surprised.

Edited May 11, 2011 by American Woman

[DogOnPorch]

Islam is an iconoclastic death cult based on conquest...many of its members are terrorists or their tacit supporters. Enough that the so-called moderate Muslims don't factor into the equation...unless it is to receive death threats from the so-called radicals.

[scouterjim]

Islam is an iconoclastic death cult based on conquest...many of its members are terrorists or their tacit supporters. Enough that the so-called moderate Muslims don't factor into the equation...unless it is to receive death threats from the so-called radicals.

Many, not ALL. There are MANY Christian fundamentalists who want to install Christian "Taliban" style governments on western nations, but NOT ALL Christians want to do that.

[Guest American Woman]

...I am also wise enough to know that not all Christians are terrorists, just as all Muslims are not terrorists.

Too bad you're not wise enough to know that reasons for the actions of one pilot, based on your speculations, isn't representative of "the US."

Edited May 11, 2011 by American Woman

[scouterjim]

Too bad you're not wise enough to know that reasons for the actions of one pilot, based on your speculations, isn't representative of "the US."

It IS representative of many Americans, though. Many Canadians as well.