Ontario Fall election

[Jack Weber]

Jack, you can criticize a post but your response here is just an insult and doesn't add anything.

I'm sorry you did'nt like the response,Mike...

But I'm not going to apologize about an apt response to a clown who DOES NOT LIVE IN THIS COUNTRY telling us how we should live...

My Grandfather did'nt fight in the 2nd World War and my Dad's cousin did'nt do time in a NAZI POW camp to satisfy the likes of that buffoon...

He left...He should enjoy his pile of rocks he feels he belongs in and simply zip it...

[Scotty]

Hudak blew it. Not sure how he let his lead slip away in an election where McGuinty wasn't popular.

He should resign. The campaign could have played it up the middle and won.

The PCs had a campaign?

[Scotty]

Hudak was overreaching when he said Ontario voted for change. They re-elected an unpopular premier, when they were begging for an alternative.

He really should go.

Maybe if there was a conservative alternative....

Certainly Hudak didn't offer one. So desperately afraid of incurring the wrath of labour or the Left that he basically told people he would continue all McGuinty's policies, but somehow or other do them better.

[Scotty]

This one's backed up by the OECD, right?

You could do worse than Schwarzenegger tbh.

Most expensive teachers in the world and our colleges still have to put incoming freshman through rudimentary grammar courses.

[PIK]

This election proved how the elite have the power in this province. The hard workers voted con, the unions voted to keep the money flowing and to hell with the rest of the province.

[Evening Star]

I will acknowledge that the writing skills of many high school grads do, um, leave something to be desired. Is it better anywhere else though? (Maybe.)

[Wild Bill]

I will acknowledge that the writing skills of many high school grads do, um, leave something to be desired. Is it better anywhere else though? (Maybe.)

Who cares? That's still no excuse! We were better, we are now poorer so we should be trying to get better again!

Pointing fingers at other jurisdictions is just a diversion.

[MiddleClassCentrist]

Most expensive teachers in the world and our colleges still have to put incoming freshman through rudimentary grammar courses.

The problem is that Colleges take anyone and everyone with money and a passing grade... NOT because the average student is illiterate.

High school educates students toward 3 levels

- University

- College

- Workplace

You can graduate by only completing workplace courses with the goal of working in construction. You only need Grade 12 English(College) and Grade 12 Math (College) at a 50% to go to College for any program.

Universites are lowering their standards more and more to get more people in and generate more money as well.

So I guess you could say, the free market is the problem. More people demand education and Post-Secondary institutions make a killing providing it. Offer it to anyone with the money to pay, regardless of whether they will succeed.

Ontario scores high in for its education system. Though, I do not understand why the liberals gave teachers a 3% raise per year in their last contract when he technically had them by the balls, so to speak (2008 contract negotiation period)

Edited October 9, 2011 by MiddleClassCentrist

[Wild Bill]

The problem is that Colleges take anyone and everyone with money and a passing grade... NOT because the average student is illiterate.

High school educates students toward 3 levels

- University

- College

- Workplace

You can graduate by only completing workplace courses with the goal of working in construction. You only need Grade 12 English(College) and Grade 12 Math (College) at a 50% to go to College for any program.

Universites are lowering their standards more and more to get more people in and generate more money as well.

So I guess you could say, the free market is the problem. More people demand education and Post-Secondary institutions make a killing providing it. Offer it to anyone with the money to pay, regardless of whether they will succeed.

Ontario scores high in for its education system. Though, I do not understand why the liberals gave teachers a 3% raise per year in their last contract when he technically had them by the balls, so to speak (2008 contract negotiation period)

The present system of community colleges was instituted the year I entered high school. Since then it appears to have developed some severe problems.

The colleges were sold as a way to "pre-train" workers, to gain the support of industry. To us students, it was to be a strong advantage to getting a job in the trades. We would be taught by "people fresh from industry"! In the 70's I worked at an electronics store and dealt with many college teachers. It soon became apparent that once they got the teaching gig they never went back into industry. After a while, particularly in a rapidly changing field like electronics, it became obvious that these teachers were getting more and more out of date.

Industry took the easy way out with hiring. Instead of the department manager being the primary decision maker as to who got hired, the "personnel" department that traditionally looked after filing employment records and making sure you got your holiday pay got renamed "human resources" and became the first and main point of hiring. It was easy for them to conduct an interview after all. All they had to do was check off little boxes as to what community college courses had been completed and what sort of graduating marks had been achieved. The process was made completely academic. The HR interviewer had no hands-on experience in what was required for the job and often was woefully ill-equipped to recognize it in an applicant.

By the time the late 80's rolled around many department heads were furious at the quality of new recruits being selected for them by the HR department. Some of the more progressive businesses restructured the process to allow for more involvement by the managers of the potential new employees. Many unfortunately still haven't and have suffered for it, without really understanding why!

However, it has made a great many new jobs for teachers! Every new community college meant large numbers of new teaching positions that had never existed before!

I agree with you that universities have taken the same attitude that quantity and not quality of students is all that's important. If you keep the schools full then you won't be expected to lay off any teachers. It's as simple as that.

Meanwhile, countries like China and India are cleaning our clocks in the global market. They are not nearly as focused on "sheepskins" as we are. Having not just background but TALENT is more important to them!

It is a long standing axiom among the Left that anyone can do any job. It's merely a matter of training and of course, the company is responsible for training and therefore will always be responsible if the employee does a bad job! You can achieve high marks in a college course and be totally inept at the job in the real world.

If we get to the point where talent and the rewarding of it becomes totally irrelevant in the workplace then we are indeed doomed!

[Evening Star]

Who cares? That's still no excuse! We were better, we are now poorer so we should be trying to get better again!

Pointing fingers at other jurisdictions is just a diversion.

Well, it's the "were better" part that I'm not sure about. So I guess that, like Bob, I would also benefit from some studies showing trends over time. Was someone who passed Gr 12 with a D in 1970 a better writer than someone who passed with a D this year? And if so, what factors were involved? Do such studies exist though? Seems like it might be hard to maintain a consistent methodology over that time period. In their absence, I do think it makes some kind of sense to look at other jurisdictions as a reference point.

[Evening Star]

It is a long standing axiom among the Left that anyone can do any job. It's merely a matter of training and of course, the company is responsible for training and therefore will always be responsible if the employee does a bad job! You can achieve high marks in a college course and be totally inept at the job in the real world.

Don't agree that this is an axiom among the left.

[Evening Star]

Actually, I think I'd be interested to see a comparison between the French-language writing skills of Quebec's CEGEP graduates and the English-language skills of ON's high school graduates. Someone close to my family went to CEGEP and actually had to study grammar, drill verb conjugations, etc in his first language.

[Wild Bill]

Well, it's the "were better" part that I'm not sure about. So I guess that, like Bob, I would also benefit from some studies showing trends over time. Was someone who passed Gr 12 with a D in 1970 a better writer than someone who passed with a D this year? And if so, what factors were involved? Do such studies exist though? Seems like it might be hard to maintain a consistent methodology over that time period. In their absence, I do think it makes some kind of sense to look at other jurisdictions as a reference point.

You know, I've googled before looking for such info and it seems to be rather rare. There's some vague and poorly substantiated "propaganda" stuff but that's about it. What you do find seems to always say that things today are wonderful! When you dig into it you find that the authors are always people with a vested interest in that POV.

Yet personal experience of perhaps thousands of parents between the way they were taught and what they see with their children tends to differ! Of course, without hard data which is virtually impossible for parents to come up with on their own, their experience is blown off as "merely anecdotal". Parent after parent is simply told they're wrong!

I wonder if home schooling and private schooling is more common than a few decades ago. That would perhaps show parental dissatisfaction with today's schooling.

Whatever, I worked very hard with my daughter's to make sure they had every chance. I read them stories every night from before they could talk and the end result was that both were good readers before they went to kindergarten. They were also quite comfortable on the home computer. In kindergarten it was just computer games geared to their age level but by the end of grade 1 they were surfing the Internet. It required more time from both me and my wife but we thought it was well worth it. When the school would send grade 8 students to the lower grades to read stories my kids would be reading better than them!

As a result both girls are honour students. They also were told from an early age that even though school could be very boring for them they didn't have to let that be a limit on learning. They could and did use the Net to learn as much as they wanted about whatever interested them! They grasped that they had to "render unto Caesar" as far as regular school was concerned, that good marks were necessary to do well later in life and even though they didn't find formal schooling all that much to be proud of, that was going to be the price for the use of the computer outside of school!

It wasn't easy sometimes but both of them learned to accept the system the way it is and not to let it bother them! Frankly, overall they haven't found it all that hard to keep up honours standing.

I did have to wage one fight for one daughter. Her teacher had discovered how bright she was and decided that the way to keep her challenged was to give her twice as much work - only at the same boring level! Believe me, that was a diplomatic challenge but we weathered it!

One recent change I've noticed was the effect of dropping the old grade 13. A fair number of students seem to be simply spreading their course load over 2 years anyway! How can you accept a graduation mark as equally valid when the student needed an extra year to achieve it? Why should an employer?

Whatever Star, I don't have all the answers. I'm happy with how things worked with my girls and that's really all I could do. If there is truly a decline eventually I'm sure the "system" will address it but in the meantime a generation or two will suffer and as they move into positions in work and society the country itself will be the poorer for it. Witness what happened in the late 70's and 80's with the abandonment of phonics! I noticed that in the 90's they came back, albeit sometimes under a different name. Meanwhile, some of the workmates and even bosses I had that were schooled without phonics seemed to me to be functionally illiterate!

It might also be interesting to find data on just what percentage of adults actually read books these days! Among younger generations it seems to be a lost pastime for many.

[Jack Weber]

This election proved how the elite have the power in this province. The hard workers voted con, the unions voted to keep the money flowing and to hell with the rest of the province.

Yes...

It's all those "dirty union members" fault..

Only hard workers,like Randy Hillier,understand...

[lukin]

All Hudak got was the Hillbilly vote in rural Ontario...

This statement is wrong and ignorant in so many ways. I'm disappointed in you Jack. The people who they are superior to others are the ones with the problem.

[Scotty]

I will acknowledge that the writing skills of many high school grads do, um, leave something to be desired. Is it better anywhere else though? (Maybe.)

Modern education producing top notch results! Our teachers deserve every penny we pay them!

In total, 42 per cent of Canadians are semi-illiterate. The proportion is even worse for those in middle age. And even when new immigrants are excluded, the numbers remains pretty much the same.

Illiteracy Canada's Shame

[Michael Hardner]

You know, I've googled before looking for such info and it seems to be rather rare. There's some vague and poorly substantiated "propaganda" stuff but that's about it. What you do find seems to always say that things today are wonderful! When you dig into it you find that the authors are always people with a vested interest in that POV.

WB, you've found the problem I've been touting for years here: publicly delivered services have no performance metrics that are: clear, easy to access, and independently verified as accurate.

There was a post made just above from the CBC that you could review, though.

[capricorn]

Modern education producing top notch results! Our teachers deserve every penny we pay them!

In total, 42 per cent of Canadians are semi-illiterate. The proportion is even worse for those in middle age. And even when new immigrants are excluded, the numbers remains pretty much the same.

Illiteracy Canada's Shame

In comparison, here's a 1990 Stats Can study that to me confirms the downward trend of literacy in Canada. See Table 1.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/studies-etudes/75-001/archive/e-pdf/75-eng.pdf

In addition, an interesting link is made between literacy and numeracy. Compare Table 1 (literacy) and Table 3 (numeracy).

The results: Numeracy skills

Given the structure of the test, in which respondents had to read instructions in order to perform the

numeracy tasks, it is not surprising that the numeracy profile of Canadian adults virtually mirrors the

reading profile.

The majority of adults, 62%, have numeracy skills advanced enough to deal with printed material

requiring a sequence of numerical operations (Level 3). Skills at this level allow Canadians to meet the

numeracy demands of most everyday documents. But almost one in seven Canadian adults - 14% - have

limited numeracy abilities (Level 1); they can locate and recognize numbers in isolation or in a short text,

but they cannot perform numerical operations consistently.

[Bob]

Maybe if there was a conservative alternative....

Certainly Hudak didn't offer one. So desperately afraid of incurring the wrath of labour or the Left that he basically told people he would continue all McGuinty's policies, but somehow or other do them better.

Exactly, Hudak is pathetic. Capricorn mentioned earlier that perhaps Hudak needed this first attempt in order to fail and improve, mentioning that McGuinty also lost his first run for the office. To me, that reveals how empty and unprincipled Hudak is, and how he is a conservative in name only. A principled candidate doesn't need to fail in one campaign in order to learn what to say and how to say it. To me, that is the epitome of the rat politician, who learns through failure how to lie. I want a politician that speaks on principle and on knowledge, and doesn't formulate his talk on polls and consultants and what went wrong last time. Hudak is pathetic. Conservatism is virtually dead in Ontario.

[Bob]

I will acknowledge that the writing skills of many high school grads do, um, leave something to be desired. Is it better anywhere else though? (Maybe.)

Although irrelevant, there is no question in my mind that the average UKer has stronger English skills than the average Canadian or American. I have had a lot of contact with UKers (as well as Canadians and Americans) and I always notice that their breadth of vocabulary and grammatical accuracy is superior to Canadians and Americans, on average. Being a person who has exceptional communication skills, I am in a position to observe these things.

[Bob]

The problem is that Colleges take anyone and everyone with money and a passing grade... NOT because the average student is illiterate.

High school educates students toward 3 levels

- University

- College

- Workplace

You can graduate by only completing workplace courses with the goal of working in construction. You only need Grade 12 English(College) and Grade 12 Math (College) at a 50% to go to College for any program.

Universites are lowering their standards more and more to get more people in and generate more money as well.

So I guess you could say, the free market is the problem. More people demand education and Post-Secondary institutions make a killing providing it. Offer it to anyone with the money to pay, regardless of whether they will succeed.

Ontario scores high in for its education system. Though, I do not understand why the liberals gave teachers a 3% raise per year in their last contract when he technically had them by the balls, so to speak (2008 contract negotiation period)

In the Canadian context, you can't use the terms free market and education in the same sentence. There is very little free market action going on in the education scene in Canada. I find it funny that a leftist like you has chosen to define himself/herself as a "centrist". Of course, that's typical. It's still funny, though.

[Bob]

Don't agree that this is an axiom among the left.

Of course it's an axiom of the left. Only the left believes in some sort of universal human equality in all dimensions, especially with respect to intellectual faculties. Aside from the fact that genetics plays a huge role in an individual's intellectual capabilities, the left likes to believe that in the right environment, everybody can be made into a brain surgeon. Of course this is not true, but the left seeks to make everyone. The funny thing is that the left acknowledges genetic factors as being huge when determining physical abilities (such as singers, dancers, models, and athletes), but refuses to believe that certain people are just born with lower intellectual potential - blaming these differences in imaginary phantoms such as poverty, racism, sexism, or any other ism.

[Bob]

You wanna know how stupid we've become? Pick up any university catalogue and peruse through the available programs and classes. "Women's studies", "Black studies", "Social Justice", "International Development", and other nonsense programs. Years ago a friend of mine showed me coursework from some elective class he was taking being taught by some moronic African "professor" (probably coming from a third-rate "university" on par with my elementary school) that spent time examining the effect of mobile phone penetration on the romantic lives of Palestinian teenage girls. You can't make this kind of stuff up. And that was being taught at the University of Ottawa. We keep pumping out graduates with fake education, it's an epidemic.

[olp1fan]

I find it funny when bumpkins try to discredit the Canadian education system using blogs when

we've been rated as in the top 10 by top agencies in the world

Edited October 9, 2011 by olp1fan

[Bob]

I find it funny when bumpkins try to discredit the Canadian education system using blogs when

we've been rated as in the top 10 by top agencies in the world

Broad, unqualified statements. Which "top agencies"? Top ten according to what criteria? Moreover, who cares? What matters is whether or not our domestic performance is improving concomitant to our constantly increasing expenditures. Are we producing more or less professionals in valuable disciplines every year from our universities? How have the curriculum standards changed over time - are they more or less stringent? What about the expansion of university program and course offerings into nonsense disciplines? How are our graduation and drop-out rates comparing to years past? What about standards for teachers and accountability on the side of the educational establishment for performance?

It's already been acknowledged in here that it is difficult to find these statistics. What hasn't been acknowledged is that these statistics are made difficult to find for obvious political reasons - to obfuscate the truth regarding our massive pouring of money into the educational system which always goes unquestioned as an "investment". Kudos to the teachers unions and other stakeholders for effectively destroying any semblance of fair debate regarding these issues in both Canada and the USA.