Conservaphobia

[Kiraly]

Of course, never does it occur to them that maybe less than 30 per cent of Canadians vote Tory is because the remaining 70 per cent think the Con vision is a load of codswollop.

I would posit that the truly "gullible and ignorant" are the working class Canadians who actualy believe the Con-jobs have anything to offer them, or that a Harper government would be any less corrupt than the Liberals, or the PC's who preceded them.

In any case, the problems of the Canadian system cannot be fixed without a rather massive overhaul, such as implementing proportional representation.

It has occurred to me.

Roughly 30% of the population is conservative...

...and a large part of this percentage is concentrated in the west sans southwest British Columbia.

Perhaps the best solution would be an amicable divorce. The ideological divide continues and there doesn't appear to be any way to reconcile the differences.

Considering that the views of conservatives are viewed as "codswallop", most Canadians would likely be thrilled to be rid of this conservative minority.

By the way, proportional representation will in no way address this problem...

...it will exacerbate it.

That 30% will be forever muffled in such a system.

[Stoker]

Perhaps Blackdog is right, the 70% of (eastern) Canadians don't share the same values as thw west.... maybe the "30% minority" should look towards a divorce, I'm getting more and more in favor of that option every day......As I see it right now, Ontario has abused wife syndrome.......let's make sure we (as in the west) don't end up in the emergency room with a fat lip and black eye, asking for the bastard that tuned us to take us back......

I'd love my vision of a Conservative Canada, but based on the view point of 70% (or the East), we don't have the same views.....Since I doubt this will ever change, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't.

[Black Dog]

I've had a sneaking suspicion that The Cons are less interested in democracy than they are in gaining power.

Some of the comments on PR prove it.

I think we need to make democracy more relevant and fix national unity. I don't think PR will achieve this. It will just make it harder for the CPC to gain a foothold.

I see, so making the electoral system more reflective of the actual make up of the country, making votes actually count, that's not "making democracy more relevant" because it will make it harder for the Con Jobs to get in?

Maybe, y'all should be asking yourselves why the Conservatives' policies don't resonate with Canadians.

This is good. Alberta is pissed. Maybe will finally get that firewall up and talk about separation. I heard one PC MLA in Alberta has just gone to the Alberta Alliance.

Seperation will always be the domain of the lunatic fringe, the selfish, spoiled brat crybaby's who can't play well enough with others that they feel compelled to take their ball and go home.

Roughly 30% of the population is conservative...

Less than that, really, when you factor in the abysmally low voter turnout.

Perhaps the best solution would be an amicable divorce. The ideological divide continues and there doesn't appear to be any way to reconcile the differences.

Considering that the views of conservatives are viewed as "codswallop", most Canadians would likely be thrilled to be rid of this conservative minority.

I would wait till all other options are exhausted. May I suggest to Harper et al, the time-honored technique of holding one's breath until you get your way? Or perhaps a crying and screaming fit on the floor of the House of Commons would be more befitting the Conservative mindset.

By the way, proportional representation will in no way address this problem...

...it will exacerbate it.

That 30% will be forever muffled in such a system.

How?

[The Terrible Sweal]

This is good. Alberta is pissed. Maybe will finally get that firewall up and talk about separation. I heard one PC MLA in Alberta has just gone to the Alberta Alliance.

Alberta isn't allowed to separate, though.

[The Terrible Sweal]

Perhaps Blackdog is right, the 70% of (eastern) Canadians don't share the same values as thw west.... maybe the "30% minority" should look towards a divorce, I'm getting more and more in favor of that option every day......As I see it right now, Ontario has abused wife syndrome.......let's make sure we (as in the west) don't end up in the emergency room with a fat lip and black eye, asking for the bastard that tuned us to take us back......

I'd love my vision of a Conservative Canada, but based on the view point of 70% (or the East), we don't have the same views.....Since I doubt this will ever change, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't.

You're not allowed. My Canada includes Banff.

[Michael Hardner]

I've had a sneaking suspicion that The Cons are less interested in democracy than they are in gaining power.

Some of the comments on PR prove it.

Now I'm being called a Con ! This is great.

QUOTE 

I think we need to make democracy more relevant and fix national unity. I don't think PR will achieve this. It will just make it harder for the CPC to gain a foothold.

I see, so making the electoral system more reflective of the actual make up of the country, making votes actually count, that's not "making democracy more relevant" because it will make it harder for the Con Jobs to get in?

Uh. Sort of.

First of all, I should point out that I'm not a 'Con'. Just because you're against PR, it doesn't make you conservative.

What matters not is the aesthetic of any system change, but the end result. ( Remember how nice the Stock Day Alliance party made referrenda sound ? ) The end result of PR will be a virtual shut-out of any more conservative governments.

Now, when's the last time I voted conservative. Hmmm ? How about... uh... never ?

So why do I care whether Conservatives get to ever form government ? Because I believe in democracy, and I believe in the fact that whether or not I agree with the CPC, their existence makes Canada a better place to live.

I thought left-of-centre people were supposed to be against the tyranny of the majority !

Maybe, y'all should be asking yourselves why the Conservatives' policies don't resonate with Canadians.

They resonate with 30% of Canadians, roughly.

And you haven't yet explained how PR will solve any problems for Canada. Yes, PR sounds very democratic, as do referrenda or free votes, internet voting, mail-in voting and so forth... but in practice these things are all tools to get what the party leader proposing them wants.

If the CPC is a bad, if it can't win an election, then it will have to evolve or die - but they should do it on their own terms, not because they were legislated out of existence by a prime minister who is on his last legs.

[I miss Reagan]

Spoiled Black Dog? How is that? Is it because we don't like our incredibly high taxes to be wasted. Is it because we're fed up with living in a country where the people in the east call us racists and rednecks. Is it because those same people have no problem with government corruption? Is it because we don't like the fact that apparently the maritimes would rather be on welfare than receive employment and revenues from off shore oil? Is it because we have no say in government no matter how we vote. No it's because we're spoiled. Nice try fool.

[August1991]

Of course, never does it occur to them that maybe less than 30 per cent of Canadians vote Tory is because the remaining 70 per cent think the Con vision is a load of codswollop.

Wait a second here. The NDP got all of 15% of the vote, and were as much if not more a victim of the Liberal campaign as the Tories.

This past election was not issue-driven in any way. It wasn't even ideological. The English TV debate portrayed the campaign well: everyone yelling at each other.

You yourself BD stated in several posts that there was little difference between the Libs and the "Alliance-Conservatives".

We just witnessed a US-style negative campaign and it worked in Ontario. (The federalists are past masters at this in Quebec against the PQ. It no longer works here though.) It amounts to making people feel the sky will fall if the opponent wins.

The end result is that several hundred thousand Ontario voters (mostly women I would guess) changed their vote to Liberal from Tory and NDP. They changed in the last few days or minutes before voting.

That's not only my view, it's also the view of Kinsella.

[Stoker]

Alberta isn't allowed to separate, though.

and

You're not allowed. My Canada includes Banff.

Who says Alberta (or the West) isn't allowed to seperate? Oh yeah, our "eastern masters"

Why do we need the frigging east again? What has Ontario and the Atlantic provinces done for us lately?

[I miss Reagan]

Alberta isn't allowed to separate, though.

and

You're not allowed. My Canada includes Banff.

Who says Alberta (or the West) isn't allowed to seperate? Oh yeah, our "eastern masters"

Why do we need the frigging east again? What has Ontario and the Atlantic provinces done for us lately?

LOL. Ya our eastern masters wouldn't want to lose "canada's backyard".

[idealisttotheend]

What has anyone in the East done to establish themselves as your master? No one in the East is my master why are you different? What have Ontario and the Atlantic provinces done against you lately?

[Black Dog]

So why do I care whether Conservatives get to ever form government? Because I believe in democracy, and I believe in the fact that whether or not I agree with the CPC, their existence makes Canada a better place to live.

A democracy should involve a system of government that represents the beliefs and values of the majority of its citizens. The current system doesn't do that, which is why most democractic nations long ago abandoned or never adopted first past the post systems.

First-past-the-post system distorts election results (i.e., a party’s portion of seats may be significantly different from their portion of the popular vote), which usually results in phony majority governments (i.e., one party will have a majority of seats, despite failing to win a majority of the popular vote).

If you supported democracy, you'd support a fair system of representation.

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why PR would be the death knell for the Cons or other right-wing parties.

I thought left-of-centre people were supposed to be against the tyranny of the majority !

How is the increased represntation offered by PR "tyrrany"?

If anything, the current system is a recipe for tyranny (as an Albertan, I know whereof I speak).

Spoiled Black Dog? How is that? Is it because we don't like our incredibly high taxes to be wasted. Is it because we're fed up with living in a country where the people in the east call us racists and rednecks. Is it because those same people have no problem with government corruption? Is it because we don't like the fact that apparently the maritimes would rather be on welfare than receive employment and revenues from off shore oil? Is it because we have no say in government no matter how we vote. No it's because we're spoiled. Nice try fool.

We're spoiled because we live in the (accidentally) richest province in the nation, yet whine and complain when we have to share a smidgen of our great fortune with other parts of the country. We're spoiled because we blame other for their misfortunes while refusing to see that our own wealth is largely an accident of birth and geography. And that's just for starters...

Mostly, though, you're crybabies becaus eyou don't like teh results and, consequentially, don't want to play anymore.

Wait a second here. The NDP got all of 15% of the vote, and were as much if not more a victim of the Liberal campaign as the Tories

Another problem with the system. the NDP got 15 per cent of the vote, yet only 6 per cent of the seats. Conversely, the Liberals get 36 per cent of the vote and walk away with 45 per cent of the seats.

[Stoker]

What has anyone in the East done to establish themselves as your master? No one in the East is my master why are you different? What have Ontario and the Atlantic provinces done against you lately?

Voted Martin back in.........

[idealisttotheend]

Voted Martin back in.........

I don't really like it all that much either (but prefer Martin to Harper). That is no reason to seperate though. Martin is the most right wing leader the Libs have ever had and with the new seat numbers he is probably going to go farther right still.

[I miss Reagan]

What has anyone in the East done to establish themselves as your master? No one in the East is my master why are you different? What have Ontario and the Atlantic provinces done against you lately?

Depends on how lately you want to get. Ever heard of the NEP? That was nice. Kyoto there's another useless program gauranteed to screw the west. What else, let's see they didn't acknowlege our elected senators. They created such a poor diplomatic environment with the US that our beef and forestry industries are ready to collapse because of it. How bout that 100,000 people = 1 seat in Alberta where 20,000 people = 1 seat in the maritimes? On and on we can go.

[Stoker]

I don't really like it all that much either (but prefer Martin to Harper). That is no reason to seperate though. Martin is the most right wing leader the Libs have ever had and with the new seat numbers he is probably going to go farther right still.

I'm the first to admit that I can be found 9 times out of 10 on the right wing, but I don't think western seperation should be just a "right-wing western thing", but a "entire western thing".........Western left wingers included. I'd even go as far as to say that in a western government, western NDPers/Greens/ and even Libs would have their voice heard more.......

[willy]

I don't really like it all that much either (but prefer Martin to Harper). That is no reason to seperate though. Martin is the most right wing leader the Libs have ever had and with the new seat numbers he is probably going to go farther right still

As a former Albertan, how about the negative attacks on the values that many of us hold. They did not attack policy, they personalized a negative campaign against me and those like me. They did not only do it against our actual value system but they also attached political opportunism to make us look worse. (i.e. Klien’s remarks about health reform.) Alberta's health system is the best financed in the country.

Having the resources and identity, why should we put up with this distain that continues for years. We voted on block across the prairies no Fiberals, and it didn't matter. Across Alberta you had Conservatives winning with 70% or more.

Which part of disenfranchises and insulted don't make sense?

[Black Dog]

I'm the first to admit that I can be found 9 times out of 10 on the right wing, but I don't think western seperation should be just a "right-wing western thing", but a "entire western thing".........Western left wingers included. I'd even go as far as to say that in a western government, western NDPers/Greens/ and even Libs would have their voice heard more.......

Well, you could start by articulating and supporting the problems with Confederation and how seperation is the only way to solve them. You'd also have to get rid of some of the more extreimist elements in order to create broad appeal.

So c'mon: convince me.

See, the problem is, seperation doesn't reflect the very Canadian and very democratic notions of compromise, of working to build a system that works for all. it smacks of self-interest and petulance and plays to the basest emotions of westerners and teh worst stereotypes of the rest of Caanda.

[Stoker]

Well, you could start by articulating and supporting the problems with Confederation and how seperation is the only way to solve them. You'd also have to get rid of some of the more extreimist elements in order to create broad appeal.

So c'mon: convince me

Extreme elements cut both ways now don't they?

How about a Western nation that uses proportional

representation? I'd think that in a nation made-up of BC/Alberta/Yukon, the Large Left leaning population in Greater Vancouver and the Island, could come close to balancing the mostly right wing rural voters in BC, added to the right wing voters in Alberta.

See, the problem is, seperation doesn't reflect the very Canadian and very democratic notions of compromise, of working to build a system that works for all. it smacks of self-interest and petulance and plays to the basest emotions of westerners and teh worst stereotypes of the rest of Caanda.

The very Canadian notion, or the very Eastern notion? We in the west contiune to get it over the barrel......the only sharing is amongest the Easterners, and thats over who gets the 2x4 to smack us with.

[I miss Reagan]

I like that. Although I don't mind the scenario where Alberta joins the US forming the geographical middle finger.

[August1991]

Natural resource royalties belong to provincial governments. This is a tremendous gift when compared with other countries where typically the centre gets these. This feature was decided in 1867 well before Alberta and oil.

I know this is a reach but we have in effect three regional parties: The Quebec Party (BQ), the Western Party (CPC) and the Eastern Party (Libs).

It happens that the most seats (and even votes) are in the Eastern region so the Eastern Party wins.

PR wouldn't change this but it would make our current election result more or less permanent. Always a minority.

Regionalism not ideology drives Canadian politics.

[willy]

Well, you could start by articulating and supporting the problems with Confederation and how seperation is the only way to solve them.

Here you go I am an old reformer,

triple E senate.

More free votes (accept the negative side for more local representation)

More power to non partisan committees that deal with the detail of policy.

A government that runs on principles not fear.

I am not a separatist but I do get frustrated with the arrogance I see in Ottawa in the Liberal.

[Stoker]

I know this is a reach but we have in effect three regional parties: The Quebec Party (BQ), the Western Party (CPC) and the Eastern Party (Libs).

I don't see that as a reach at all.

It happens that the most seats (and even votes) are in the Eastern region so the Eastern Party wins.

PR wouldn't change this but it would make our current election result more or less permanent. Always a minority.

Regionalism not ideology drives Canadian politics.

And thats why some in Quebec and the West want to leave........what it the alternative, we have seen that the east is not willing to loosen their grip on power, so why shouldn't the West and Quebec just let go? Let the East become King $hit of Turd Hill.......

[taxedman]

Well, here we go again. Will the Libs be responsible? Will they do what is best for Canada or what the voters of Ontario think is best for Canada again, and again and again. The truly spoiled people in this country are the people that rely on our 'Social Net'. Why do you think that the Maritimes voted Liberal? Was it because of the responsible governing by Ottawa. NO! It was the fact that they were AFRAID that they would have to find work to survive. The fish stocks have been poorly managed by Ottawa for so many years now they won't let the fishermen fish, they give the quotas to the natives! Talk about a spoiled bunch! If you want a good example of what happens to people when governments had out cash to people, sheesh! That is what you can expect in this country in a few more decades of social programs that 'help' people out when they are down and out. Yes, I think that those programs are wonderful and IDEALLY, they should help everyone out. BUT, people are basically lazy, who the hell wants to work at McDonalds for $6.00/hr when you can get more money for a lot less work by staying home?

Will Martin and the Liberals govern responsibly and quit wasting our hard earned money? I doubt it, a leopard doesn't change its' spots. The Liberals will go on lying, cheating and wasting, and all those Liberal voters will continue being happy until one day there are no more West to plunder.

[Goldie]

Add three more firsts for the Conservative Party.

Along with the first ever female cabinet member we can now boast of the first female Indo-Canadian elected to parliament.

The first elected person with a physical disability

and the first husband and wife.

The party labeled as harmful to minority rights keeps on doing what no other party does, giving them a voice in the House of Commons.

The bigot Scott Brison will not be missed.