Black Dog Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 Tommen seems to be doing a decent job, he's like 10. He hasn't done anything yet. I'm only talking about the show and that Dany ain't 16. Her character is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted June 11, 2014 Report Share Posted June 11, 2014 George wishes each season could have been 13 episodes instead of 10. He says he hates making cuts. I would gladly watch more Thrones each season!http://www.vanityfair.com/vf-hollywood/game-of-thrones-cut-scene-george-rr-martin?mbid=social_facebook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I thought the 100,000 includes women, children and basically the entire wildling population north of the wall since they are fleeing the white walkers. If you consider 100,000 to be basically the entire population (or even half the population) it isn't unreasonable given the population figures of other parts of westeros. The 7 kingdoms appear to have armies of the size of about 20,000 each, indicating that they probably have populations on the order of hundreds of thousands. King's Landing has a population of half a million, etc. This would probably mean that Westeros has a population of a few million people. I'll correct myself. After looking at more evidence, the population of Westeros is at least 20 million. However, there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the population of Westeros and the size of Westeros. The population density seems unrealistically low even after making for various considerations (such as different climate, level of warfare, etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I'll correct myself. After looking at more evidence, the population of Westeros is at least 20 million. However, there seems to be a bit of a disconnect between the population of Westeros and the size of Westeros. The population density seems unrealistically low even after making for various considerations (such as different climate, level of warfare, etc.). The North is a forested area, beyond the Wall is frozen, Dorne to the south is desert wasteland, and some of the centre is serious mountains and uncultivated marshland. Population will be determined by arable land, and Westeros has a limited amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 The North is a forested area, beyond the Wall is frozen, Dorne to the south is desert wasteland, and some of the centre is serious mountains and uncultivated marshland. Population will be determined by arable land, and Westeros has a limited amount. The Reach is fertile farm isn't it. Why the Tyrelle's are the real lead family of Westeros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
overthere Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 The Tyrells are successful and have good land, but they are obliged to suck up to the warlike Lannisters to avoid getting consumed. Like anywhere else, might is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 The Tyrells are successful and have good land, but they are obliged to suck up to the warlike Lannisters to avoid getting consumed. Like anywhere else, might is right. I would assume with Littlefinger running the Vale and the knowledge of him and Lady Tyrell conspiring to have Joffery killed, it's not hard to assume that the Vale and Reach will form an alliance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) Awwwwww Crows before Hoes. Edited June 12, 2014 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hydraboss Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 (edited) One better... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaD8rouJn0 Oh, and it's a little inappropriate so...at your own risk. And stuff. Edited June 12, 2014 by Hydraboss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 The North is a forested area, beyond the Wall is frozen, Dorne to the south is desert wasteland, and some of the centre is serious mountains and uncultivated marshland. Population will be determined by arable land, and Westeros has a limited amount. Is this supposed to be a refutation to my earlier post? Or are you just informing me of what I already know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 Is this supposed to be a refutation to my earlier post? Or are you just informing me of what I already know? The point is that once you subtract out the sparsely populated areas (i.e. the North), only about 1/3 of the original land area remains where most of the population lives, roughly tripling your population density estimate for the part of Westeros that is actually inhabited in any meaningful way. Anyway, as you said yourself of your estimate, the 20 million was a lower bound. What's the upper bound? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 I love how we're debating the geography of a fictional country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 Well on this other forum they debated the question of population for 4 pages: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/57070-population-of-westeros/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 The point is that once you subtract out the sparsely populated areas (i.e. the North), only about 1/3 of the original land area remains where most of the population lives, roughly tripling your population density estimate for the part of Westeros that is actually inhabited in any meaningful way. Anyway, as you said yourself of your estimate, the 20 million was a lower bound. What's the upper bound? Even when you take into account the useability of the land, the population density is still unrealistically low. Look in some causes the author has described Westeros to be the size of South America. However, omitting this then it is still well known that the wall is 300 miles long. This means that westeros is approximately 1,000 miles by 4,000 miles, or about 1/2 the size of South America. However, there are some even lower 'estimates' that try to omit information about the length of the wall that claim that Westeros is about the size of Western Europe. http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2010/11/mapping-seven-kingdoms.html For the population, there have been a variety of different estimates. Some use urbanization rates and the populations of known cities (King's Landing, Old Town, Lannisport, White Harbor, etc.). Some use army sizes to estimate the size of the population based upon army size to population ratios of medieval societies. There are other methods as well. I would say that the most reasonable population estimates put the population between 20 million and 40 million. But even then, there is a huge disconnect between the size of Westeros and it's population because it yields a ridiculously low population density. Perhaps if the entire population were a hunter gather society. But the population is mostly an agrarian society and its population density doesn't come close to that of medieval societies on earth, even if you acknowledge that Westeros' population density should be lower due to warfare, climate and useable land. Most likely, the author severely miscalculated land size needed for the population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted June 12, 2014 Report Share Posted June 12, 2014 Even when you take into account the useability of the land, the population density is still unrealistically low. Look in some causes the author has described Westeros to be the size of South America. However, omitting this then it is still well known that the wall is 300 miles long. This means that westeros is approximately 1,000 miles by 4,000 miles, or about 1/2 the size of South America. However, there are some even lower 'estimates' that try to omit information about the length of the wall that claim that Westeros is about the size of Western Europe. http://thewertzone.blogspot.ca/2010/11/mapping-seven-kingdoms.html For the population, there have been a variety of different estimates. Some use urbanization rates and the populations of known cities (King's Landing, Old Town, Lannisport, White Harbor, etc.). Some use army sizes to estimate the size of the population based upon army size to population ratios of medieval societies. There are other methods as well. I would say that the most reasonable population estimates put the population between 20 million and 40 million. But even then, there is a huge disconnect between the size of Westeros and it's population because it yields a ridiculously low population density. Perhaps if the entire population were a hunter gather society. But the population is mostly an agrarian society and its population density doesn't come close to that of medieval societies on earth, even if you acknowledge that Westeros' population density should be lower due to warfare, climate and useable land. Most likely, the author severely miscalculated land size needed for the population. Or perhaps large chunks of land simply remain uninhabited, nominally within the domain of some kingdom but not really utilized? Like the vast expanses of land in northern Canada or eastern Russia, for example. Also, you say "even if you acknowledge" factors like warfare and climate... but how are you accounting for these? By all accounts, Westeros has an absolutely catastrophic winter that wipes out the majority of the population every few generations. One of the main reasons for Winterfell being where it is is because it's on top of a hotspring system which offers warmth in the winter... isn't a parable given in one of the books of how one winter, almost everyone in all the north froze to death except for those in Winterfell? Having a 50-90% population die-off every 50-100 years would have a significant impact on the population. Also, how is 40 million for a land area about the size of Canada unreasonably low, especially for a medieval level of technology? That's more population density than Canada has. Is Canada an unrealistic fictional construct? Naw, it's just mostly uninhabited, just like Westeros. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) Wouldn't another consideration for the size of Westeros be that people can go from one end to another on food in relatively little time? https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061120062843AABuhhB According to this it would take about a year to walk a lap around Great Britain. I see Westeros as similar to GB. The Romans built a wall to keep out Wildling type people too. Edited June 13, 2014 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Wouldn't another consideration for the size of Westeros be that people can go from one end to another on food in relatively little time? https://ca.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061120062843AABuhhB According to this it would take about a year to walk a lap around Great Britain. I see Westeros as similar to GB. The Romans built a wall to keep out Wildling type people too. What I don't get is how the lands beyond the wall, which are supposed to be extremely cold and harsh, with few people in them can give rise to an army of 100,000. The Starks could only raise about 20,000, and the Lannisters 60,000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimG Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 (edited) What I don't get is how the lands beyond the wall, which are supposed to be extremely cold and harsh, with few people in them can give rise to an army of 100,000. The Starks could only raise about 20,000, and the Lannisters 60,000.Others claim it is 100,000 refugees - not soldiers. That said, it makes no sense why a group of soldiers in a castle behind a huge wall would talk about being out numbered by 100,000 refugees. Edited June 13, 2014 by TimG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Or perhaps large chunks of land simply remain uninhabited, nominally within the domain of some kingdom but not really utilized? Like the vast expanses of land in northern Canada or eastern Russia, for example. Also, you say "even if you acknowledge" factors like warfare and climate... but how are you accounting for these? By all accounts, Westeros has an absolutely catastrophic winter that wipes out the majority of the population every few generations. One of the main reasons for Winterfell being where it is is because it's on top of a hotspring system which offers warmth in the winter... isn't a parable given in one of the books of how one winter, almost everyone in all the north froze to death except for those in Winterfell? Having a 50-90% population die-off every 50-100 years would have a significant impact on the population. Also, how is 40 million for a land area about the size of Canada unreasonably low, especially for a medieval level of technology? That's more population density than Canada has. Is Canada an unrealistic fictional construct? Naw, it's just mostly uninhabited, just like Westeros. But Canada and Eastern Russia contain mostly boreal forests and frozen tundra. Not much of the land is viable for agriculture. Furthermore, Canada has only been colonized by people with agriculture for a few hundred years. In comparison, Westeros' climate is much warmer and much more suitable for agriculture than Canada or Russia. The tree line extends well beyond the wall, and the climate at the wall is more similar to that of Norway due to proximity to the ocean than the Continental climates of Canada or Eastern Russia. Then you have fertile places like the reach, which has a climate similar to France, King's Landing, which someone resembles Rome in terms of it's climate, and then the Mediterranean/Arid climate of Dorne. We see agriculture everywhere in Westeros from Dorne all the way up to the North. Then finally, Westeros has been supposedly populated for 12,000 years and the first men that came were already in the Bronze age and had agriculture. Since we are talking about a Medeival society with a climate resembling Western Europe, especially after a long summer, the Malthusian Theory of Population should be roughly accurate (especially given that we know the rate of technological progress is slow) and the population should be roughly at the carrying capacity of the land. As a result, the population density simple does not make sense. I'll give you some numbers for comparison: Let's say we go with the upper-ish bound of 40 million people spread over 4 million square miles. That is approximately 10 people per square mile. By comparison, Medieval England had approximately 4 million people spread over 50,000 square miles, or 80 people per square mile. And England had a relatively low population density at the time compared to places like France, Germany or Italy. A factor of 8 is too large to explain by other factors. And even a population of 40 million does seem to be on the high end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Others claim it is 100,000 refugees - not soldiers. That said, it makes no sense why a group of soldiers in a castle behind a huge wall would talk about being out numbered by 100,000 refugees. Cause those 'refugees' are battle-hardened hunter-gatherers that hate / want-to-kill the night's watch and include giants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 The Tyrells are successful and have good land, but they are obliged to suck up to the warlike Lannisters to avoid getting consumed. Like anywhere else, might is right. But the Lannister gold mines are tapped out. Might fades when the money runs out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 Others claim it is 100,000 refugees - not soldiers. That said, it makes no sense why a group of soldiers in a castle behind a huge wall would talk about being out numbered by 100,000 refugees. Being outnumbered 1,000 to 1 is a problem regardless of the level of training. Plus, the Knight's Watch is ridiculously low on men, weapons, food, money, supplies, leadership, etc. Most of the castles along the wall are uninhabited and basically ruins. So despite the big wall, they don't have the numbers to patrol it and maintain it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 13, 2014 Report Share Posted June 13, 2014 That's why Jon Snow went to talk to Mance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty AC Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 I hear they spoiled tonight's episode with a teaser. Too bad. I haven't seen it but my neighbour claims they spoiled the big finish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted June 16, 2014 Report Share Posted June 16, 2014 (edited) It's quite convenient that Stannis showed up AFTER the big battle. Interesting moment when the Red Witch caught Jon Snow's eyes. He's got a thing for Red heads eh? The highlight of the episode was not Tyrion going stonecold killer by offing Shae and Tywin. How implausible was that BTW? No guards anywhere between where ever the Red Keep is and Tywin's bedroom? BTW was the Irony lost on anyone that Tyrion killed Tywin on Father's Day? Oh Game of Thrones You! The Highlight was Brienne v Hound. Is that even in the book? That fight made Viper v Mountain looks lame. Interesting to see how Brienne reacts to losing Arya, she's off to Bravos so it's not like she'll ever find her. And Pod!!!! For such a cool Squire you were about to let your girl there get pwned. You didn't even keep an eye on Arya? DaFuq! Bran's storyline is Meh. He's hanging with and old dude and the children of the corn now? Edited June 16, 2014 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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