Are there any Blue Grits (à la Paul Martin?)

[expat voter]

The Liberals have proven themselves to be good economic managers in the past, especially with Paul Martin.

Is there anyone of his stature in the party now? Like a Tom Manley, or Frank McKenna? Does Scott Brison fit the bill? Could he?

The most important bulk of Canadian voters want a prudently managed economy, with reasonable taxation and sensible government spending that helps the entire public.

Here's the Liberal shadow cabinet as listed in wikipedia. Who are the proven or potential prudent managers in here?:

* Aboriginal Affairs - Todd Russell

* Agriculture, Agri-food & Canadian Wheat Board - Wayne Easter

* Amateur Sport - Joyce Murray

* Arctic Issues & Northern Development - Larry Bagnell

* Canadian Heritage - Pablo Rodriguez

* Citizenship & Immigration - Justin Trudeau

* Consular Affairs, Consumer Affairs - Dan McTeague

* Crown Corporation - Bonnie Crombie

* Economic Development Agency for Regions of Quebec and Associate Finance Critic - Alexandra Mendes

* Democratic Renewal - Carolyn Bennett

* Environment - Gerard Kennedy

* Finance - Scott Brison

* Fisheries, Oceans & Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency - Rodger Cuzner

* Foreign Affairs - Bob Rae

* La Francophonie - Raymonde Folco

* Health - Ujjal Dosanjh

* Human Resources & Skills Development - Mike Savage

* Human Rights - Irwin Cotler

* Industry, Science & Technology - Marc Garneau

* International Cooperation - Glen Pearson

* International Trade - Martha Hall Findlay

* Justice & Attorney-General - Marlene Jennings

* Labour - Maria Minna

* Multiculturalism - Rob Oliphant

* National Defence - Dominic LeBlanc

* National Revenue - Jean-Claude D’Amours

* Natural Resources - Denis Coderre

* Official Languages - Mauril Belanger

* Pacific Gateway and Western Economic Diversification - Sukh Dhaliwal

* Public Safety & National Security - Mark Holland

* Public Works & Government Services - Geoff Regan

* Rural Affairs - Mark Eyking

* Seniors and Pensions - Judy Sgro

* Small Business - Navdeep Bains

* Southern Ontario Development Agency - Frank Valeriote

* Status of Women - Anita Neville

* Transport, Infrastructure & Communities - John McCallum

* Treasury Board - Siobhan Coady

* Tourism - Gerry Byrne

* Veterans Affairs - Kirsty Duncan

* Water - Francis Scarpaleggia

[Smallc]

First, it's John Manley, and second, from a quick glance, there ar at least 8 names on that list, plus Ralph Goodale (House Leader).

[Moonbox]

The Liberals have proven themselves to be good economic managers in the past, especially with Paul Martin.

Chretien and Martin followed Trudeau, who was the worst economic manager the country has ever had by a long shot. We're still paying off his debt.

[Evening Star]

They followed Mulroney, to be precise... Tbh, I tend not to resent the debt accumulated under Trudeau as much as some people do because I actually like the programmes he spent the money on. (I also tend to think that if Petro-Canada had remained a Crown, it could have easily been made a profitable generator of revenue. That doesn't seem to be a popular opinion though.)

[blueblood]

They followed Mulroney, to be precise... Tbh, I tend not to resent the debt accumulated under Trudeau as much as some people do because I actually like the programmes he spent the money on. (I also tend to think that if Petro-Canada had remained a Crown, it could have easily been made a profitable generator of revenue. That doesn't seem to be a popular opinion though.)

Mulroney had to deal with very high interest payments to bondholders. As with petro-can, the asset had to be sold in order for funding to pay off trudeau's debt. Its far more efficient for the fed gov to collect taxes from the company than try and run it themselves.

[Saipan]

What's "blue" about Martin. He's semi-Nazi openly vocal about disarming whole nation.

[GWiz]

First, it's John Manley, and second, from a quick glance, there ar at least 8 names on that list, plus Ralph Goodale (House Leader).

On this one I'm in TOTAL agreement with you...

There's also the factor of an election going on so post this election and subsequent appointments and the results of the election itself will be a major determining factor of what transpires in the Liberal Party (in fact ALL parties) going forward...

It's what I've said in the past... Beyond the leaders, the Liberal party has the BEST "bench strength" of any of the political parties...

[Oleg Bach]

What's "blue" about Martin. He's semi-Nazi openly vocal about disarming whole nation.

Ooops.....semi-Nazi? Who do you think runs the country? Not the doves. Martin was a semi-Nazi - but to run this nation you have to be full blown.

[eyeball]

Fisheries, Oceans & Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency

Great...I still recall how our shrimp market collapsed following the collapse of the the East Coast cod fishery.

I was getting .90 a lb for Pacific shrimp when suddenly Newfie shrimp started showing up on grocery shelves at .30 a lb.

They not only subsidized the Newfies they took our technology and showed them how to use it.

[GWiz]

Great...I still recall how our shrimp market collapsed following the collapse of the the East Coast cod fishery.

I was getting .90 a lb for Pacific shrimp when suddenly Newfie shrimp started showing up on grocery shelves at .30 a lb.

They not only subsidized the Newfies they took our technology and showed them how to use it.

Better them than China (and the rest of SE Asia for that matter) at .10 a lb... No?

[TheRightWing]

Better them than China (and the rest of SE Asia for that matter) at .10 a lb... No?

Yeah but as we all know the Shrimp would no doubt have lead in it and kill us later in life

[Michael Hardner]

Ooops.....semi-Nazi? Who do you think runs the country? Not the doves. Martin was a semi-Nazi - but to run this nation you have to be full blown.

I know you're just trying to goad me into making a Clinton joke here, but I won't be doing that.

[Saipan]

Here's the Liberal shadow cabinet as listed in wikipedia. Who are the proven or potential prudent managers in here?:

They'll be in the shadow for a long time. Maybe too old before their time comes.

[eyeball]

Better them than China (and the rest of SE Asia for that matter) at .10 a lb... No?

Think about this for a second I was getting .90 per lb. from the processor for iced shrimp. Processed Newfie shrimp was selling to the public in Nanaimo at Costco for .30 a lb.

At that price they were even under-cutting the Chinese.

[GWiz]

Think about this for a second I was getting .90 per lb. from the processor for iced shrimp. Processed Newfie shrimp was selling to the public in Nanaimo at Costco for .30 a lb.

At that price they were even under-cutting the Chinese.

As Kevin O'Leary would point out, too small an issue, no money in it for me, and at .90 a lb how much was your profit margin and at what volume?

[GWiz]

Yeah but as we all know the Shrimp would no doubt have lead in it and kill us later in life

Actually, IMHO, there's more chance of Canadian Shrimp having lead and mercury in them because of Canada's logging industry (west coast shrimp), than most imported shrimp...

Not that I know much about the industry beyond a little reading I've done so I stand to be corrected...

[Wild Bill]

They followed Mulroney, to be precise... Tbh, I tend not to resent the debt accumulated under Trudeau as much as some people do because I actually like the programmes he spent the money on. (I also tend to think that if Petro-Canada had remained a Crown, it could have easily been made a profitable generator of revenue. That doesn't seem to be a popular opinion though.)

Well, I watched the whole PetroCan thing, Star! Perhaps you are not aware of a few factors.

First off, PetroCan was formed by buying up private sector companies, like BP and Gulf Oil. Some of these companies really didn't want to sell, so the Liberal government of the time offered them so much flippin' money that they simply couldn't turn it down!

The amount was not only kept secret at the time, it has been a secret to this very day! A succession of Auditor-Generals have tried to find out how much the Liberals paid to form PetroCan but NO ONE has been able to find out!

You can't help but wonder why this is so!

Second, once there were PetroCan stations all over the place it became common knowledge that PetroCan was always the first to raise their prices and the LAST to lower them! EVERY TIME! Radio announcers on the air would even joke about it! As I said, it was common knowledge.

So could PetroCan have been made "a profitable generator of revenue"? Maybe, but it would have taken a miracle! First off, the company was run by Maurice Strong, a socialist liberal who likes to play the part of a business tycoon. He's always done this by being underwritten by the Liberal Party. To my knowledge, he has NEVER run a totally separate private sector company with no buckets full of public tax dollars to subsidize him!

Second, how do you define "profitable"? It seems obvious that the amount paid for PetroCan was some obscenely scandalous amount or it wouldn't still be some kind of state secret. In any normal company you have to pay off your purchase price before you can start to claim a profit.

If you want to define it as "operating profit" that might actually be true, although it would be really hard to tell. No one really knew where PetroCan's money from all its service stations was actually going! The company had been "sold" to Canadians as a government lever amongst all those "greedy bastard" private sector oil companies, so that we could force them to keep their prices low at the pumps. To the best of my knowledge, no Canadian EVER saw PetroCan start a price war! It has always been suspected that their profits just went to the government as "general revenue".

Worse yet, PetroCan never sold a drop of Canadian gasoline! It bought it all from Libya and/or Venezuela. That was during the first decade or so. I don't know if that's still true today.

Note that when Mulroney came along he didn't do much to change the situation, or reveal that secret purchase cost. When political rivals all do the same thing it must have been a sweetheart deal for any government of the day!

So I leave it to you to make your own estimation as to how profitable PetroCan could have become. Me, I'll grant that it was theoretically possible but in the real world where the company was formed and run by politicians and their puppets, I just don't believe it ever would have happened!

Edited April 7, 2011 by Wild Bill

[GWiz]

Anyone interested in this subject matter or just in trying to derail it?

just askin'

[expat voter]

First, it's John Manley, and second, from a quick glance, there ar at least 8 names on that list, plus Ralph Goodale (House Leader).

Thanks for the correction, I've been an expat for a while now. What 8 names do you consider would be good economic managers?

[Saipan]

Actually, IMHO, there's more chance of Canadian Shrimp having lead and mercury in them because of Canada's logging industry

Yeah, them logs are full of it.

[RNG]

Well, I watched the whole PetroCan thing, Star! Perhaps you are not aware of a few factors.

First off, PetroCan was formed by buying up private sector companies, like BP and Gulf Oil. Some of these companies really didn't want to sell, so the Liberal government of the time offered them so much flippin' money that they simply couldn't turn it down!

The amount was not only kept secret at the time, it has been a secret to this very day! A succession of Auditor-Generals have tried to find out how much the Liberals paid to form PetroCan but NO ONE has been able to find out!

You can't help but wonder why this is so!

Second, once there were PetroCan stations all over the place it became common knowledge that PetroCan was always the first to raise their prices and the LAST to lower them! EVERY TIME! Radio announcers on the air would even joke about it! As I said, it was common knowledge.

So could PetroCan have been made "a profitable generator of revenue"? Maybe, but it would have taken a miracle! First off, the company was run by Maurice Strong, a socialist liberal who likes to play the part of a business tycoon. He's always done this by being underwritten by the Liberal Party. To my knowledge, he has NEVER run a totally separate private sector company with no buckets full of public tax dollars to subsidize him!

Second, how do you define "profitable"? It seems obvious that the amount paid for PetroCan was some obscenely scandalous amount or it wouldn't still be some kind of state secret. In any normal company you have to pay off your purchase price before you can start to claim a profit.

If you want to define it as "operating profit" that might actually be true, although it would be really hard to tell. No one really knew where PetroCan's money from all its service stations was actually going! The company had been "sold" to Canadians as a government lever amongst all those "greedy bastard" private sector oil companies, so that we could force them to keep their prices low at the pumps. To the best of my knowledge, no Canadian EVER saw PetroCan start a price war! It has always been suspected that their profits just went to the government as "general revenue".

Worse yet, PetroCan never sold a drop of Canadian gasoline! It bought it all from Libya and/or Venezuela. That was during the first decade or so. I don't know if that's still true today.

Note that when Mulroney came along he didn't do much to change the situation, or reveal that secret purchase cost. When political rivals all do the same thing it must have been a sweetheart deal for any government of the day!

So I leave it to you to make your own estimation as to how profitable PetroCan could have become. Me, I'll grant that it was theoretically possible but in the real world where the company was formed and run by politicians and their puppets, I just don't believe it ever would have happened!

PetroCanada's birth was the buying of Pacific Petroleums, followed by buying Fina's Canadian assets. I worked for them through the NEP, which was a mixed blessing. Unlike many of my friends, I remained employed even though the company was losing vast amounts of money because the Liberals couldn't at all admit the huge screw-up they had commited, but it was hard to swallow. Profitable - no way. We drilled areas based on the unemployment figures rather than where there was good potential for hydrocarbon. And Mr. Strong was a polititian, not a businessman.

[Wild Bill]

PetroCanada's birth was the buying of Pacific Petroleums, followed by buying Fina's Canadian assets. I worked for them through the NEP, which was a mixed blessing. Unlike many of my friends, I remained employed even though the company was losing vast amounts of money because the Liberals couldn't at all admit the huge screw-up they had commited, but it was hard to swallow. Profitable - no way. We drilled areas based on the unemployment figures rather than where there was good potential for hydrocarbon. And Mr. Strong was a polititian, not a businessman.

Thank you, Sir! As a salesman, I learned to always value inside information. Someone who actually worked in a particular business could give you the REAL story, as opposed to the PR line!

They could be wrong, of course but it's amazing how often they are right! Most people are not stupid and the old "grapevine" works great in any organization.

Obviously, there were no Blue Grits involved in the formation of PetroCanada. Just your usual socialist opportunists. Unlike some, I don't write off voting Liberal forever for this indiscretion of about 30 years ago. Parties change as their people change, except perhaps for the federal NDP who still seem to be stuck in 1965. There are a few Blue Liberals around today and perhaps after they martyr Ignatieff they will come to power. I still believe that it will be the NEXT election that will have REAL Liberal candidates who might actually achieve a win!

However, I still won't buy from PetroCan! In my entire life, I have only bought $2 worth. I was in Northern Ontario and riding on fumes. The first gas station I came to was a PetroCan and I got only $2 to get me to the next station!

I've always preferred to buy Canadian, if possible!

Edited April 7, 2011 by Wild Bill

[Evening Star]

Worse yet, PetroCan never sold a drop of Canadian gasoline! It bought it all from Libya and/or Venezuela. That was during the first decade or so. I don't know if that's still true today.

Hm, well, there's probably a lot I don't know about it... but by all accounts, Petro Canada was heavily involved in exploration and drilling of oil within Canada: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/petrocanada/ So were they not selling any of this oil??

[RNG]

And yet it still bothers me tremendously that a Liberal, Paul Martin as Finance Minister, and a Democrat, Slick Willie Clinton did better for their respective country's deficite and debt than the Conservatives and Republicans through my adult life.

[GWiz]

And yet it still bothers me tremendously that a Liberal, Paul Martin as Finance Minister, and a Democrat, Slick Willie Clinton did better for their respective country's deficite and debt than the Conservatives and Republicans through my adult life.

Do tell me why that "bothers you"?