Why are we at war with Libya

[DogOnPorch]

How do you enforce a no fly zome without attacks?

True nuff...but, I remember a simpler time when IED was called a land mine and a VBIED was a car with a bomb in it. A No-Fly Zone these days might mean house flies and such to some folk's interpretations.

Guard: Papers please.

Fly: Bzzz...I don't have papers.

Guard: Hey...wait just a minute. You're trying to get into the No Fly Zone.

Fly: Bzzzz...you caught me.

Edited April 4, 2011 by DogOnPorch

[WWWTT]

How do you enforce a no fly zome without attacks?

I believe the immpression everyone had about a no fly zone was that only Libyan military planes that took off would be shot down.

The skies would still be patrolled by the coalition to make a presence.

I had no idea that meant a first strike of any potential threats to the coalition planes.And I don't believe that the coalitions only targets are threats to coalition planes.

WWWTT

[DogOnPorch]

I believe the immpression everyone had about a no fly zone was that only Libyan military planes that took off would be shot down.

The skies would still be patrolled by the coalition to make a presence.

WWWTT

You can't allow threats like this to exist on the ground in a so-called No Fly Zone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-75_Dvina

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strela_2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K31_Strela-1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K33_Osa

...etc...there's more.

[M.Dancer]

I believe the immpression everyone had about a no fly zone was that only Libyan military planes that took off would be shot down.

Then everyone is an idiot. The US and others clearly said and repeated that a no fly zome would require attacks on Libyan air defences and CC infrastructure.

http://wn.com/A_NO-Fly_Zone_BEGINS_With_An_Attack_On_Libya_Sec_Of_Defense_Robert_Gates

“A no-fly zone begins with an attack on Libya to destroy the air defenses. That’s the way you do a no-fly zone,’’ Gates said. “And then you can fly planes around the country and not worry about our guys being shot down. But that’s the way it starts.’’

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/03/03/gates_warns_of_difficulties_in_trying_to_create_a_no_fly_zone_over_libya/

[Oleg Bach]

Never heard Harper stand up in Parliment and proclaim - we now declare war on Libya..Come to thing of it I really don't remember Bush or Obama formally declaring war on Iraq or Afghanistan..Seems declaring war is some old fashioned formality - and we are oh so less formal today..we declare things in the most polite fashion - instead of rape we say - she was sexually assaulted...of course we must have a war with Libya seeing Obama is having one and those hetro-phags that run the EU are all gung ho about showing their manhood without getting their hands dirty.

[WWWTT]

Of course. That's why we were involved in an invasion of Iraq (twice) too, and why we don't get involved in African conflicts, despite the huge numbers of atrocities.

To some extent I disagree.

There are countries in more southernly Afrika that does have a worthwhile amount of oil.

However the past colonization and the terrain would detract from any prospect of a military intervention to secure these resources.

WWWTT

[bush_cheney2004]

Then everyone is an idiot. The US and others clearly said and repeated that a no fly zome would require attacks on Libyan air defences and CC infrastructure.

Well DUH! Please tell me that some people are not that stupid. You can't just overfly the sovereign territory of a nation with warplanes without suppressing air defenses and supporting infrastructure.

These people need to watch more Fox News!

[WWWTT]

Then everyone is an idiot. The US and others clearly said and repeated that a no fly zome would require attacks on Libyan air defences and CC infrastructure.

http://wn.com/A_NO-Fly_Zone_BEGINS_With_An_Attack_On_Libya_Sec_Of_Defense_Robert_Gates

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2011/03/03/gates_warns_of_difficulties_in_trying_to_create_a_no_fly_zone_over_libya/

I think what I am getting at is that I do not believe that the full extent of the coalitions true intentions were fully disclosed when this matter was voted on.

I would be very interested if someone here could provide a reference that this is or is not the case.

Thank you

WWWTT

[ToadBrother]

I believe the immpression everyone had about a no fly zone was that only Libyan military planes that took off would be shot down.

The skies would still be patrolled by the coalition to make a presence.

I had no idea that meant a first strike of any potential threats to the coalition planes.And I don't believe that the coalitions only targets are threats to coalition planes.

WWWTT

Then you knew nothing about no-fly zones. To create one, you have to pretty much wipe out not only air capability, but anti-aircraft capabilities. Without those actions you can't create a no-fly zone.

[M.Dancer]

I think what I am getting at is that I do not believe that the full extent of the coalitions true intentions were fully disclosed when this matter was voted on.

I would be very interested if someone here could provide a reference that this is or is not the case.

You are asking to prove a negative. If you don't know better, you should

[M.Dancer]

Well DUH! Please tell me that some people are not that stupid.

I cannot fulfil you request

[ToadBrother]

I think what I am getting at is that I do not believe that the full extent of the coalitions true intentions were fully disclosed when this matter was voted on.

I would be very interested if someone here could provide a reference that this is or is not the case.

Thank you

WWWTT

Anyone with any knowledge of modern military tactics would know that if you want to enforce a no-fly zone, you need to wipe out the enemy's capacity to fly aircraft, and just as importantly, because you're going to be flying your own air assets over enemy territory, you need to prevent them from shooting down your aircraft. How do you propose to do this without bombing the crap out of airstrips, hangars, radar and anti-aircraft installations? Oh, and every aircraft you blow up on the ground is one you don't have to worry about in the air.

Edited April 4, 2011 by ToadBrother

[Jack Weber]

I cannot fulfil you request

Is that anything like (and I'm paraphrasing)

"We do not believe in your sham intellect!!!"

[Oleg Bach]

It's cool to wage war - especially with some that can never beat you - that would make it similar to hunting deer...we are in Libya because our elite are a sporting lot!

[bush_cheney2004]

It's cool to wage war - especially with some that can never beat you - that would make it similar to hunting deer...we are in Libya because our elite are a sporting lot!

How much for a camel tag? Do they have antlers?

[WWWTT]

Is that anything like (and I'm paraphrasing)

"We do not believe in your sham intellect!!!"

Please clarrify your intent for making such a comment

Thank you

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Anyone with any knowledge of modern military tactics would know that if you want to enforce a no-fly zone, you need to wipe out the enemy's capacity to fly aircraft, and just as importantly, because you're going to be flying your own air assets over enemy territory, you need to prevent them from shooting down your aircraft. How do you propose to do this without bombing the crap out of airstrips, hangars, radar and anti-aircraft installations? Oh, and every aircraft you blow up on the ground is one you don't have to worry about in the air.

If you can not provide me with anything then why say something like this.

Were you at the UN meetings leading up to the vote as to what was discussed for the coalition involvement?

Cmon buddy your just a Joe sitting in front of a computer.

You are not a diplomat or a military analyst or a political scientist.

Lets see a list of your credentials to make such a statement

Something with some meat.

WWWTT

[DogOnPorch]

Just an old joke around here...it wasn't aimed at you.

[ToadBrother]

If you can not provide me with anything then why say something like this.

Were you at the UN meetings leading up to the vote as to what was discussed for the coalition involvement?

Cmon buddy your just a Joe sitting in front of a computer.

You are not a diplomat or a military analyst or a political scientist.

Lets see a list of your credentials to make such a statement

Something with some meat.

WWWTT

I'm not sure what your objection is, or what it is your asking for. I'm telling you what a no-fly zone involves. I'm not making a value judgement, per se. And the Security Council resolution is very very broad, so obviously the negotiators and authors knew very well what was meant. If the accusation is that the governments of the countries involved didn't fully spell out what a no-fly zone is, you're probably right.

[M.Dancer]

Lets see a list of your credentials to make such a statement

Something with some meat.

WWWTT

And what credentials do you have? Of course, none are needed for an uneducated opinion.

[bush_cheney2004]

...If the accusation is that the governments of the countries involved didn't fully spell out what a no-fly zone is, you're probably right.

Yep...this is by design; he should just read the resolution:

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm#Resolution

What is a No Fly Zone

Basically, a no fly zone is a turkey shoot for allied air power.

Edited April 4, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[ToadBrother]

And what credentials do you have? Of course, none are needed for an uneducated opinion.

It's a moronic demand, considering this is a web forum, and not some academic discussion group.

But I don't think it takes a flippin' genius to figure out that a no-fly zone involves a helluva lot more than just shooting airplanes out of the sky. That might work for a country the size of Luxembourg, but Libya is a pretty big country and shooting down aircraft is going to mean actually flying over Libyan air space, and over Libyan radar and anti-aircraft installations. I'm not sure exactly why that would require any credentials to sort out.

[WWWTT]

And what credentials do you have? Of course, none are needed for an uneducated opinion.

I was not the only one that was shocked at the extent of the coalitions mandate for a no fly zone.

So was the Arab legue.

I was hoping someone here could provide a link to some details of the no fly zone that was proposed.

But I guess something like that could be top secret and not easy to access.

I was not aware I needed credentials to ask questions.

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

Yep...this is by design; he should just read the resolution:

http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2011/sc10200.doc.htm#Resolution

What is a No Fly Zone

Basically, a no fly zone is a turkey shoot for allied air power.

Thanks for the links

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

It's a moronic demand, considering this is a web forum, and not some academic discussion group.

But I don't think it takes a flippin' genius to figure out that a no-fly zone involves a helluva lot more than just shooting airplanes out of the sky. That might work for a country the size of Luxembourg, but Libya is a pretty big country and shooting down aircraft is going to mean actually flying over Libyan air space, and over Libyan radar and anti-aircraft installations. I'm not sure exactly why that would require any credentials to sort out.

Oh really

Wouldn't know that from the way you write some stuff here

WWWTT