Mayor Ford to nix Pride Funding!

[Shady]

It's not "Jewish Apartheid Week," but is named after the perceived actions of a State.

There is nothing sacred about the geopolitical entities called "countries." Not even--gasp!--Israel.

Your analogy would only work if you cited, for example, a "Saudi Arabia Apartheid Week."

So what's the problem with that?

Nah. I wanna do Muslim Apartheid Week. There's far too many Muslim countries that all behave in the same manner. Picking one for one week would take too long.

[Shwa]

Nah. I wanna do Muslim Apartheid Week. There's far too many Muslim countries that all behave in the same manner. Picking one for one week would take too long.

So the equation to the way you would solve things is that two wrongs make it right?

It's disgusting!

[Black Dog]

being critical of a nation is one thing. Comparing to apartheid South Africa is quite another ,that isn't being critical that's just plain stupid.

Point of fact, we're talking about Israeli Apartheid, which is presumably different from apartheid in South Africa. The question isn't "how do Israel's policies compare to those of South Africa during the apartheid era" but "do Israel's policies, in and of themselves, constitute apartheid?"

Saying that Israel doesn't have the right to exist isn't being critical it's racist.

Who is saying that Israel doesn't have the right to exist?

[Oleg Bach]

The classic liberal reverse - shame becomes pride and pride becomes shame...kind of Orwellian in nature also...Why don't they just have a Toronto Celebrates Day - a huge party that is not centered around some special interest group. This buisness about "Pride" bringing in big tourist dollars is fine - but any other event would do the same under any other title. Besides _ I am a big homo phobe---I am afraid of big burly guys who's main objective is to screw you in that ass....does that make me a bad person? Of course it does - I am denying someone the pleasure of dominating another...take me to the Human Rights Tribunal - and convict me of a hate crime. All because I find certain things unpleasant...but I know I must tolerate the un-pleasant...and be a good little troll in this nut bag liberal democracy we life in were jerks attempt to dominate.

[Wilber]

IOW: blackmail.

Hmm, refusing to give someone some else's money is blackmail. I thought it meant the opposite.

[bloodyminded]

Perhaps since the fighting of wars is a governmental function they have a right to support those so engaged?

Government has no "rights" in any such capacity.

[bloodyminded]

Nah. I wanna do Muslim Apartheid Week. There's far too many Muslim countries that all behave in the same manner. Picking one for one week would take too long.

Well, what's stopping you? Go for it.

[bloodyminded]

Point of fact, we're talking about Israeli Apartheid, which is presumably different from apartheid in South Africa. The question isn't "how do Israel's policies compare to those of South Africa during the apartheid era" but "do Israel's policies, in and of themselves, constitute apartheid?"

At any rate, the point here is not whether or not the word is valid; the claim is that it's "racist"[sic].

I would be interested to know who exactly is the arbiter who gets to determine the precise parameters of debate in such a manner.

Who is saying that Israel doesn't have the right to exist?

No one is saying it. they keep insisting that everyone is saying it, even as it isn't being said.

It's like the "liberals believe all morality is equal," canard; I have only ever heard this said in this way, as a criticism of "what liberals believe."

That is, I have never once heard it from the alleged source (not even as I attended an Eastern liberal-arts university at the height of the political correctness controversies); rather, I have only heard it said that liberals believe this.

News to me.

Edited March 14, 2011 by bloodyminded

[Shady]

Well, what's stopping you? Go for it.

Money. I want some government money. Why should Pride get some and not me?

[GostHacked]

being critical of a nation is one thing. Comparing to apartheid South Africa is quite another ,that isn't being critical that's just plain stupid. Saying that Israel doesn't have the right to exist isn't being critical it's racist. If Israel doesn't exist then the Jewish people would also cease to exist leaving what happened with the Nazi's open to happen again.

Are there Jews living outside of Israel? No? They all moved to Israel? No?

[bloodyminded]

Money. I want some government money. Why should Pride get some and not me?

Apply for the money. You think they can read your mind?

However, Pride is an event that represents a lot of people. You'd have to provide some evidence that a lot of people are hardcore extremists like yourself in order to qualify, I think. A hard sell, I admit.

Edited March 15, 2011 by bloodyminded

[bloodyminded]

Are there Jews living outside of Israel? No? They all moved to Israel? No?

There are even some Jewish people who (gasp!) don't want to live in Israel.

[SF/PF]

Two questions..

1) Why are all of the usual trickle down fetishists missing from this thread?

My points are expertly illustrated and clear for all to read. My wit is blinding to my detractors. Must be the tiger blood transfusion I just received. Winning!

2) WTF?

[Shwa]

Mr.Canada, on 10 March 2011 - 08:47 AM, said:

My points are expertly illustrated and clear for all to read. My wit is blinding to my detractors. Must be the tiger blood transfusion I just received. Winning!

2) WTF?

He is equating himself with Charlie Sheen. That should explain everything.

[SF/PF]

He is equating himself with Charlie Sheen. That should explain everything.

I see. I wasn't aware that Sheen is a fascist...

[Mr.Canada]

He is equating himself with Charlie Sheen. That should explain everything.

It was a joke. I guess humor is lost on some...sheesh lighten up guys. You guys this serious in the bedroom as well? (That's another joke just in case you don't understand that one either.) Hahaha

[Shady]

What kills me about this is you think Michelle Obama has more legislative powers (relativly speaking of course) than the mayor of Toronto.

But you've already stated that Rob Ford doesn't have any legislative power in this regard. So which is it?

[Black Dog]

But you've already stated that Rob Ford doesn't have any legislative power in this regard. So which is it?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make anymore and, I suspect, neither do you.

[Shwa]

It was a joke. I guess humor is lost on some...sheesh lighten up guys. You guys this serious in the bedroom as well? (That's another joke just in case you don't understand that one either.) Hahaha

I was making a joke too. Is humour lost on you as well?

[Rue]

All criticism of Israel must be banned. Perhaps we can impose jail terms for anyone caught being critical of the great blameless nation of Israel.

As usual you ignore the point and make some illogical remark trying to be sarcastic.

No one suggested criticism of Israel should be banned. What was stated is there is a time and place for it and the city should not fund it.

The purpose of the parade is to celebrate gay culture.

Is that hard for you to grasp?

A gay cultural festival is not something you should be able to hijack for your own selfish agenda. You want to criticize Israel go ahead but don't misappropriate and exploit a gay festival to do it and then have the audacity to demand city funding.

Ford grasped that concept. It was not about him not liking gays. It was about him standing up to people like you with your sense of entitlement and saying no the city will not fund people like you who think you have a sense of entitlement to use the city's funds to advance your own self-centered, self-serving, agendas.

The issue was never about whether people can criticize Israel. It is about the time and place for such criticism or any criticism dealing with non gay cultural issues. This is a gay culture festival not a bring your political axe to grind and hijack the gay festival to impose your views on its audience moment.

Now then, do tell me why do you not bring attention to the plight of gays in the Middle East and in Muslim countries and point out how Palestinian gays flee to Tel Aviv and Haifa from Gaza and the West Bank to escape persecution because they are gay?

How is it you remain silent as to the anti-gay persecution that has gays across the Muslim and Arab worlds living in fear? How is it you ignore all the persecution of gays in the Middle East or Israel's treatment of gays. How is it youd o not point out precisely because Israel pursues the basic Zionist ideology of tolerance this is precisely why it seperates orthodox Judaism from gay political and legal rights and is the only gay friendly state in the Middle East which protects its citizens with human rights laws and case decisions? Well?

Do tell. What makes you such a blatant hypocrate? Oh wait you care about Palestinians? Really. Clearly not gay ones. You could care less about gays. You see nothing wrong with hijacking their one opportunity to celebrate their culture for your own political agenda which makes a mockery of the real world of gays in the Middle East.

Well? Whe do you get off criticizing Israel as a state in a gay pride event and remain silent on the treatment of gays in the Muslim Arab world and think this makes you credible and righteous to the point you think you can change the topic and try misrepresent what people like me have argued?

As my guru Oleg Bach would say you seem to be selective as to whose buttox you want to talk about. You want to target only certain buttoxes go to a buttox bar and scout out the chaps.

Ford only questioned the funding of the gay parade when it was hijacked. before then he stated he was of the view that the city should not fund any cultural events not just the gay one. He never stated only certain cultures should be funded.

His criticism of the gay pride parade changed as did mine when it was hijacked by people like you who made a further travesty of it.

One can be against city funding of all cultural events and not be anti gay by the way. Clearly another concept you can't grasp.

Ford may be conservative and politically incorrect but he does not hate gays and to say he does is b.s. He has spoken out against gay bashing more then once.

I am no Ford supporter b ut fair is fair. For you to suggest he is anti gay but you care about gays is a joke.

I would also defer to gays on this topic. The ones I spoke with were quite sympathetic with my concerns. I have always supported gays as vibrant active members of the community entitled to their cultural celebrations. I just hate to see it exploited and hijacked by people like you and if we do live in tough fiscal times then yes aybe cities like Toronto have to look at cutting back on funding of such events and encouraging communities to do their own fund-raising so that the money the city does have can be used for social services.

Now some argue the gay parade brings in much revenue for hotels and businesses. That is a distinct issue as to whether certain festivals should be promoted by the city because the money the city spends brings back more in tourism. That is a different issue and if it can be shown such festivals bring in more money than the city spends then obviously that is a common sense arguement to keep them.

I have seen all kinds of figures that show the gay pride festivities do bring in more money then the city spends, don't bring in more money then the city spends or are revenue neutral so I do not know whose are more accurate, etc. but it seems to be if it brings in more money then the city spends its a good investment but that the gay community should police itself and understand the city can't fund partisan political views it must remain neutral to all citizens.

Edited March 16, 2011 by Rue

[Black Dog]

As usual you ignore the point and make some illogical remark trying to be sarcastic.

The point is simple. If you want to single out Israel as a state for criticism then why JUST

Israel and is that the purpose of the parade.

When I lived in Vancouver, pride regularly featured a contingent of Arab-Canadians protesting in solidarity with gay victims of homophobic regimes in the Middle East, Iran and Afghanistan. It wouldn't surprise me if there were similar gestures made in Toronto, but i can't say for sure. Can you? Maybe we should check Mr. Canada's video for evidence.

Is the purpose of the parade to celebrate gay culture or to criticize Israel?

It can't do both? It's an inherently political event based around the idea of freedom of expression.

Is that hard for you to grasp that this is not supposed to be a political event about Israel's state policies-this is not the time or place for it and the people who hijacked the gay pride parade for their own political agenda are not advancing any gay pride or cultural issue and no they should not be given a platform for such views with city funding.

Excuse me, but who are you to dictate this group's agenda?

People like you think any place is an appropriate place to criticize Israel. The issue is not about Israel. The issue is not about whether people can criticize Israel. It is about the time and place for such criticism or any criticism in that regard. What next? Why no criticism of the anti gay policies of Muslim and Arab nations?

So when would be a goOd time and place to criticize Israel? Because as far as I can gather from the pro-Israel contingent here, the time is never and the place is nowhere.

Tell me will you bring attention to the plight of gays in the Middle East and in Muslim countries and point out how Palestinians flee to Tel Aviv and Haifa from Gaza and the West Bank?Well? Whe do you get off criticizing Israel as a state in a gay pride event and remain silent on the treatment of gays in the Muslim Arab world and think this makes you credible?

How does that have anything to do with the issue of criticizing Israel? It has nothing to do with criticizing Israel and everything to do with you selectively choosing to criticize the only gay friendly state in the Middle East for state policies that have nothing to do with gays.

Get back to me when you decide to open your eyes to your own hypocracy and explain your silence as to the treatment of gays in Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morrocco, Lebanon, Syria, Saudi Arabia. Jordan, Yemen, Iran.

Go on explain to everyone how Israel is such an evil place but takes in gay refugees from the West Bank who flee for their lives.

Does Israel's record on gay rights absolve it of any wrongdoing in other areas? Does criticism of Israel for human rights abuses ipso facto imply support of human rights abuses elsewhere? What type of comment would you like to see regarding human rights in the other Middle eastern states?

[nicky10013]

Pride isn't family friendly, it's not a family activity. I don't view homosexuals celebrating their sexuality as appropriate viewing for children.

Ah so there it is. You don't mind public funding for events (like the Calgary Stampede) but not for funding for events for "the gays."

People who view the treatment of animals in the stampede to be immoral have views just as valid as yours. This is what pisses me off about conservatives. They pretend to be morally superior; they "protect freedom." Except if you're gay, want an abortion - I was going to say a muslim but lets be honest and say anyone who isn't christian.

[Rue]

So let me respond to some of your comments Blach Dawg:

"When I lived in Vancouver, pride regularly featured a contingent of Arab-Canadians protesting in solidarity with gay victims of homophobic regimes in the Middle East, Iran and Afghanistan."

Interesting you didn't mention that while you lived in Vancouver the gay pride festivities were not used as a platform for non gay related issues such as ranting at Zionism. Are we a tad selective as to what we remember?

You stated:

"It wouldn't surprise me if there were similar gestures made in Toronto, but i can't say for sure. Can you? Maybe we should check Mr. Canada's video for evidence."

The same anti Zionists had butkus to say about gay rights in Israel or the anti-gay behaviour throughout the Middle East. Like you didn't know.

You stated:

"It can't do both? It's an inherently political event based around the idea of freedom of expression."

No sometimes its not possible to be pregnant and not pregnant at the same time although no doubt some do think it is possible to suck and blow at the same time.

The answer is no it can't be both for the simple reason if it is, then the gay festival of pride turns into something other then that and then it won'tstop at Israel it will turn into a non stop bitch session for all kibnds of issues and end up having nothing to do with gay culture.

You stated:

"Excuse me, but who are you to dictate this group's agenda?"

I am not dictating the agenda you are. You are the one dictating the gay pride festival should be used for your own partisan political purposes unrelated to gay culture not me. I have contended is not up to you or anyone else to dictate what political views and causes you want imposed at gay pride day cultural decelebrations.

No you don't get to dictate and decide and make sweeping pronouncements that the gay cultural festival must be used for your partisan purposes and then try suggest if I disagree with that I am the one dictating the agenda.

You ask:

"So when would be a goOd time and place to criticize Israel?"

The question makes it self evident how insincere you are. Would you otherwise have me believe you can't fathom it would at a political event specifically set up for such an agenda and not at a cultural event that is suppposed to be inclusive of all gay people and not just the ones who have your anti Zionist political views? You can't grasp that partisan political agenda do not belong at apolitical cultural events? You can't grasp that the gay community has people of all kinds of political views and so to remain inclusive and welcoming to all gays at a cultural event it must avoid partisan political disputes? That's too hard for you to fathom?

You stated:

" Because as far as I can gather from the pro-Israel contingent here, the time is never and the place is nowhere."

As far as you can gather? Show me once where I or anyone else in this thread stated there is never a time and place for it. Go on. Put up or shut up. You gather? What have you gathered?

Go on show me where I or anyone else in this thread stated no criticism of Israel should ever be allowed. You gathered nothing. You simply project your own subjective preconceived notions on others and try present your biases as if you determined them based on an evidentiary investigation. Right.

You are well aware the issue is not whether Israel should be criticized but whether a festival celebrating gay culture is the time and place for it and whether the city should be expected to finance your partisan political views. You can continue to try misrepresent the issues at hand and try switch the focus away from what is being discussed but its transparent and it won't work. I am not biting.

"Does Israel's record on gay rights absolve it of any wrongdoing in other areas?"

The question you ask me has nothing to do with the issues we are debating and is a further example of how you try switch the topic use the transparent technique of bait and switch to avoid debating the actual issue and that is whether an apolitical cultural event should be turned over to your partisan political agenda and then get city funding.

I repeat again and focus back to the issue and state-no you don't get to hijack an inclusive apolitical cultural event and turn it into a partisan platform for your exclusive political agenda. No you are not entitled to taxpayers money.

You want to march up and down the street protesting against Israel go ahead. Knock yourself out just don't expect me or taxpapers or gays to pay for it and stop hijacking a positive cultural expression for your negative agenda. Go find your own event.

You asked:

"Does criticism of Israel for human rights abuses ipso facto imply support of human rights abuses elsewhere?"

Again you engage in bait and switch. The above question has nothing to do with the issue as to whetger a gay cultural festival should be hijacked for non gay partisan political agenda and whether such partisan views be funded by the city government.

Again I believe your question is insincere and that you know what the answer to it is and that is when the anti Zionists were asked by gays not to use the gay pride day for their exclusive political agenda they told those gay people to f..ck themselves and when the press asked them whether they also planned to protest the anti gay treatment in the Muslim world or bring attention to the persecution of gays in the Muslim world who then flee to Israel they responded stating even though Israel was a refuge for gays from all over the Middle East this consideration was not relevant as issues pertaining to gays in the Middle East were secondary to the need to dismantle Israel.

You asked me;

" What type of comment would you like to see regarding human rights in the other Middle eastern states?"

The question again misses the point. Its not what I want or what you want.

The gay pride weekend is about gays. Its what gays want. Its about gays celebrating their culture. I don't claim to speak for them. If the true majority of gays feel they should be anti Zionist and ignore violations against gays in the Middle East and hijack the festival and place anti Zionist agenda ahead of gay agenda it is not up to me to say. It's not my festival. If the gay community of Toronto truly wants to turn there cultural festival into a platform to single out Israel and deny its right to exist so be it. I doubt the majority of gays will ever agree to that for 2 reasons however.

Firstly gays are spiritually linked to Zionism hard as that is for you to understand. Gays were singled out because they were gay and killed for it in the holocaust. Like the Roma peoples the gays share the experience of being targetted not because of their believes but simply who they were.

So if anyone understands the reason Jews desire political expression through a collective and through our own community it is gays. Gays have been the biggest supporters of Israel and our struggle to express ourselves through universal sufferage. They know our pain. They too formed a community the same reason we did- as an existential device to protect themselves and assure they no longer, never again have to live in fear.

Gays do not hate Zionism. They understand it. If anything they criticize the state of Israel the same reason I would. Not because they are anti Zionist, but because of specific policies. They are not against Jews having our own country. They simply believe what most Israelis do, and that is that terrorism is wrong, Muslim and jewish and Christian fundamentalism causes nothing but problems and hopefully one day Israelis and Palestinians and all Arab peoples and Jews, whether straight or gay can live in peace.

Gays stood arm to arm with Jews, women and blacks in the civil rights movement. The spiritual link will always be there. We share the same dry self effacing sense of humour. We both have survived and coped with persecution by building vibrant cultures we celebrate through music, art, academics, and charity.

Gays will not turn on us. Some may feel conflicted with anti Israeli extremist views because of confusion with their Muslim identity but the vast majority are interested in building peace between Israelis and Palestinians or inter-cooperation between them, us, Christians, Muslims, all ethnic groups.

Secondly the gays I know are all about including ALL peoples in their festival not just those with the same political views. They are trying to embrace not just gays of all kinds of political views and walks of life but straights too.... and so try very hard to remain neutral and welcoming to all and not pick sides in political or religious disputes unless it is to defend gays as a group from persecution.

They do not and have never appreciated politicians or opportunists from expoloiting gay issues for other agenda. That is part of the pride you seem to not be able to fathom.

However I do not speak for gays. I only repeat what they have taught me.They have taught me the best way to be a jew is the way they have been able to learn to be well adjusted as gays-to trascend political divisions and hatred and look for common themes in all of us.

Secondly, I have been at meetings where the gay community has openly expressed fears that if their cultural festival is misappropriated for non gay issues, it will lose its unique purpose of expression-can you not understand that? D

o you think you should be able to burst into a gay person's home and demand they pay homage to your political views or can you for once pipe down and respect their home?

What next should I be funded by Rob Ford to protest against anti Zionists at all kinds of cultural events?

[Rue]

So let me respond to some of your comments Blach Dawg:

"When I lived in Vancouver, pride regularly featured a contingent of Arab-Canadians protesting in solidarity with gay victims of homophobic regimes in the Middle East, Iran and Afghanistan."

Interesting you didn't mention that while you lived in Vancouver the gay pride festivities were not used as a platform for non gay related issues such as ranting at Zionism. Are we a tad selective as to what we remember?

You stated:

"It wouldn't surprise me if there were similar gestures made in Toronto, but i can't say for sure. Can you? Maybe we should check Mr. Canada's video for evidence."

The same anti Zionists had butkus to say about gay rights in Israel or the anti-gay behaviour throughout the Middle East. Like you didn't know.

You stated:

"It can't do both? It's an inherently political event based around the idea of freedom of expression."

No sometimes its not possible to be pregnant and not pregnant at the same time although no doubt some do think it is possible to suck and blow at the same time.

The answer is no it can't be both for the simple reason if it is, then the gay festival of pride turns into something other then that and then it won'tstop at Israel it will turn into a non stop bitch session for all kibnds of issues and end up having nothing to do with gay culture.

You stated:

"Excuse me, but who are you to dictate this group's agenda?"

I am not dictating the agenda you are. You are the one dictating the gay pride festival should be used for your own partisan political purposes unrelated to gay culture not me. I have contended is not up to you or anyone else to dictate what political views and causes you want imposed at gay pride day cultural decelebrations.

No you don't get to dictate and decide and make sweeping pronouncements that the gay cultural festival must be used for your partisan purposes and then try suggest if I disagree with that I am the one dictating the agenda.

You ask:

"So when would be a goOd time and place to criticize Israel?"

The question makes it self evident how insincere you are. Would you otherwise have me believe you can't fathom it would at a political event specifically set up for such an agenda and not at a cultural event that is suppposed to be inclusive of all gay people and not just the ones who have your anti Zionist political views? You can't grasp that partisan political agenda do not belong at apolitical cultural events? You can't grasp that the gay community has people of all kinds of political views and so to remain inclusive and welcoming to all gays at a cultural event it must avoid partisan political disputes? That's too hard for you to fathom?

You stated:

" Because as far as I can gather from the pro-Israel contingent here, the time is never and the place is nowhere."

As far as you can gather? Show me once where I or anyone else in this thread stated there is never a time and place for it. Go on. Put up or shut up. You gather? What have you gathered?

Go on show me where I or anyone else in this thread stated no criticism of Israel should ever be allowed. You gathered nothing. You simply project your own subjective preconceived notions on others and try present your biases as if you determined them based on an evidentiary investigation. Right.

You are well aware the issue is not whether Israel should be criticized but whether a festival celebrating gay culture is the time and place for it and whether the city should be expected to finance your partisan political views. You can continue to try misrepresent the issues at hand and try switch the focus away from what is being discussed but its transparent and it won't work. I am not biting.

"Does Israel's record on gay rights absolve it of any wrongdoing in other areas?"

The question you ask me has nothing to do with the issues we are debating and is a further example of how you try switch the topic use the transparent technique of bait and switch to avoid debating the actual issue and that is whether an apolitical cultural event should be turned over to your partisan political agenda and then get city funding.

I repeat again and focus back to the issue and state-no you don't get to hijack an inclusive apolitical cultural event and turn it into a partisan platform for your exclusive political agenda. No you are not entitled to taxpayers money.

You want to march up and down the street protesting against Israel go ahead. Knock yourself out just don't expect me or taxpapers or gays to pay for it and stop hijacking a positive cultural expression for your negative agenda. Go find your own event.

You asked:

"Does criticism of Israel for human rights abuses ipso facto imply support of human rights abuses elsewhere?"

Again you engage in bait and switch. The above question has nothing to do with the issue as to whetger a gay cultural festival should be hijacked for non gay partisan political agenda and whether such partisan views be funded by the city government.

Again I believe your question is insincere and that you know what the answer to it is and that is when the anti Zionists were asked by gays not to use the gay pride day for their exclusive political agenda they told those gay people to f..ck themselves and when the press asked them whether they also planned to protest the anti gay treatment in the Muslim world or bring attention to the persecution of gays in the Muslim world who then flee to Israel they responded stating even though Israel was a refuge for gays from all over the Middle East this consideration was not relevant as issues pertaining to gays in the Middle East were secondary to the need to dismantle Israel.

You asked me;

" What type of comment would you like to see regarding human rights in the other Middle eastern states?"

The question again misses the point. Its not what I want or what you want.

The gay pride weekend is about gays. Its what gays want. Its about gays celebrating their culture. I don't claim to speak for them. If the true majority of gays feel they should be anti Zionist and ignore violations against gays in the Middle East and hijack the festival and place anti Zionist agenda ahead of gay agenda it is not up to me to say. It's not my festival. If the gay community of Toronto truly wants to turn there cultural festival into a platform to single out Israel and deny its right to exist so be it but it then can't expect the city or any government to fund its partisan political activities.

However I doubt the majority of gays will ever agree to that for 2 reasons however.

Firstly gays are spiritually linked to Zionism hard as that is for you to understand. Gays were singled out because they were gay and killed for it in the holocaust. Like the Roma peoples the gays share the experience of being targetted not because of their believes but simply who they were.

So if anyone understands the reason Jews desire political expression through a collective and through our own community it is gays. Gays have been the biggest supporters of Israel and our struggle to express ourselves through universal sufferage. They know our pain. They too formed a community the same reason we did- as an existential device to protect themselves and assure they no longer, never again have to live in fear.

Gays do not hate Zionism. They understand it. If anything they criticize the state of Israel the same reason I would. Not because they are anti Zionist, but because of specific policies. They are not against Jews having our own country. They simply believe what most Israelis do, and that is that terrorism is wrong, Muslim and jewish and Christian fundamentalism causes nothing but problems and hopefully one day Israelis and Palestinians and all Arab peoples and Jews, whether straight or gay can live in peace.

Gays stood arm to arm with Jews, women and blacks in the civil rights movement. The spiritual link will always be there. We share the same dry self effacing sense of humour. We both have survived and coped with persecution by building vibrant cultures we celebrate through music, art, academics, and charity.

Gays will not turn on us. Some may feel conflicted with anti Israeli extremist views because of confusion with their Muslim identity but the vast majority are interested in building peace between Israelis and Palestinians or inter-cooperation between them, us, Christians, Muslims, all ethnic groups.

Secondly the gays I know are all about including ALL peoples in their festival not just those with the same political views. They are trying to embrace not just gays of all kinds of political views and walks of life but straights too.... and so try very hard to remain neutral and welcoming to all and not pick sides in political or religious disputes unless it is to defend gays as a group from persecution.

They do not and have never appreciated politicians or opportunists from expoloiting gay issues for other agenda. That is part of the pride you seem to not be able to fathom.

However I do not speak for gays. I only repeat what they have taught me.They have taught me the best way to be a jew is the way they have been able to learn to be well adjusted as gays-to trascend political divisions and hatred and look for common themes in all of us.

Secondly, I have been at meetings where the gay community has openly expressed fears that if their cultural festival is misappropriated for non gay issues, it will lose its unique purpose of expression-can you not understand that?

Edited March 17, 2011 by Rue

[Rue]

Are there Jews living outside of Israel? No? They all moved to Israel? No?

You missed his point. He never stated Jews don't live outside of Israel. Read what he wrote. He stated and I will most certainly agree with him, that if Israel does not exist neither will we Jews. I do not think for a second if Israel is destroyed, we Jews will continue as a distinct people. I believe because it exists my collective identity can continue to exist. I believe that became reality precisely because of the holocaust, the forced expulsion of Jews from the Middle East and continued world wide persecution of Jews.

The fact you even asked the above question shows your ignorance of what has happened to us Jews. Where do you think all the Felashies went? What would have happened to them if they could not flee to Israel. What do you think would have happened to the 700,000 of 900,000 Jews forced out of the Middle East nations if they couldn't have gone to Israel?

Are you that oblivious to Jewish history you are not aware of the Jews forced to flee to Israel after the creation of the nation and who could not have survived without Israel?

Do you expect me to believe someone like you that ignorant of my history is in the position to guarantee my continued survival as a people without Israel?

No you are a case in point why Israel is an existential imperative for Jews, even ones like me who enjoy every possible benefit a Jew could ever imagine. I am eternally grateful to Canada and what it has offered me and my family but I also am aware that my collective identity would disappear without an expression of universal sufferage in another state.

Its precisely something I would not expect you to make the effort to bother to understand.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Rue