PM shows strength with Libya stance

[PIK]

http://www.ottawasun.com/comment/editorial/2011/03/01/17450106.html

With polls saying obama would win a majority in canada,just shows how dumb some people can be ,he has failed in america and failed on the big stage, but yet harper who has come a long way as a world leader never gets any credit.

[ToadBrother]

http://www.ottawasun.com/comment/editorial/2011/03/01/17450106.html

With polls saying obama would win a majority in canada,just shows how dumb some people can be ,he has failed in america and failed on the big stage, but yet harper who has come a long way as a world leader never gets any credit.

Credit for what exactly, doing what everyone else is doing?

[William Ashley]

I personally disagree with the overall course taken. I think firing on peaceful demonstrators can definately be "a crime" - if it is against the law in the country you live in. We need to look at what laws the people broke - who was the criminal who was lawful in using force.

Just bcause you don't like the law doesn't make it any less the law of a given country.

I think applying these things to the international stage recklessly is a little backward - also deploring the libyan government to refrain from using force while cities are being overthrown by a military is saying - let the coup succeed.

It is a little absurd of a position then the US is calling Gaddafi delusional... I think the US is being delusional if they expect any government to take their overthrow sitting down - hell Mubarak took it laying down, but it is still his military in control.

We need to actually look at what is happening here.

There was a movement to overthrow governments by "mass blockade" and eventual strikes - there is nothing "wrong" with that per se, but even Canada's own government imposes back to work legislation and threatens fines and jail time. The police respond to arrest warrants .... if people resist they get taken by force, that is how it works in Canada too.

Claiming otherwise is deluded.

Places like the US need to apply their own values on other states situations and recognize the domestic laws of those countries.

IT isn't like the US resigned when the Kent State massacre happened. Or the Canadian politicians resigned when OKA and Dudley George happened.

You need to take things in perspective. Bad stuff happenes but the governments that are spouting

this are being hypocrytical.

I dont' see war crimes trials over this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oka_standoff

This whole thing is going to cost a 1/4 a billion dollars a year for Canada and the loss of billions of dollars in assets in Libya. That is no good for Canada. The cost of these operations are also an unknown price tag right now.

I yet to heard NOTHING of what the revolutionaries/rebels have to deliver if they were to form a government.

BTW I'm all for democracy I just want to hear what they are going to do. What they plan to implement, I don't see how radical al qaeda islam will be better than socialist islam.

What is the end result.

Look Gaddafi cares for the rebels too:

In Libya, Gaddafi appeared to settling into a deeper stalemate as attacks by his forces failed to dislodge the opposition from areas of several cities that they hold. A convoy of government aid, which Gaddafi's government said was bound for the eastern city of the rebel-held eastern city of Benghazi, set out from Tripoli . The 20 trucks were carrying food and medicine.

Edited March 3, 2011 by William Ashley

[myata]

Is it bychance, the same prime minister who only a few short weeks earlier advised us to tread nice and softly with another frindly dictators. Good that some truths have dawned on him..hopefully. Though one can never be sure..

Killing unarmed people is a crime, if there's one universally agreed about in the world. I do hope that Gaddafi will be judged by his own people though. Along with his thugs.

[Saipan]

Credit for what exactly, doing what everyone else is doing?

Never heard Chretien defending our Northern Passage - even militarily - against claims by other countries including USA.

Stephen Harper did.

[Saipan]

Credit for what exactly, doing what everyone else is doing?

Never heard Chretien cutting Chinese dictators to size. Stephen Haper did - and was criticized for it by Ignatieff.

Liberals were always brownosing Beijing. Since Trudeau.

[Saipan]

I personally disagree with the overall course taken. I think firing on peaceful demonstrators can definately be "a crime" - if it is against the law in the country you live in. We need to look at what laws the people broke - who was the criminal who was lawful in using force.

WHOSE law?

It was against the LAW to hide Jews who were lawfully exterminated.

"Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of

their respect for it, even the well disposed are daily made

the agents of injustice."

- - Henry David Thoreau

[The_Squid]

WHOSE law?

It was against the LAW to hide Jews who were lawfully exterminated.

"Law never made men a whit more just; and, by means of

their respect for it, even the well disposed are daily made

the agents of injustice."

- - Henry David Thoreau

First sensible post that you have ever made. Congratulations.

[ToadBrother]

Never heard Chretien defending our Northern Passage - even militarily - against claims by other countries including USA.

Stephen Harper did.

The Tory response is still inadequate, just simply more vocal.

Never heard Chretien cutting Chinese dictators to size. Stephen Haper did - and was criticized for it by Ignatieff.

Liberals were always brownosing Beijing. Since Trudeau.

Cutting Chinese dictators down to size? Who the hell are you kidding. These Chinese dictators control nuclear arsenals, have an army that dwarfs anything we could ever hope to produce and now sit at #2 in the largest economies on Earth. The Prime Minister of Canada isn't exactly going to make these guys lose sleep.

Edited March 2, 2011 by ToadBrother

[ToadBrother]

I personally disagree with the overall course taken. I think firing on peaceful demonstrators can definately be "a crime" - if it is against the law in the country you live in. We need to look at what laws the people broke - who was the criminal who was lawful in using force.

Using weapons against large massive of demonstrating citizens, regardless of the local laws, is creeping damned close to a crime against humanity. The international community rejected the notion of unlimited internal action by sovereign states when they accepted the principals of the Atlantic Charter.

[normanchateau]

Never heard Chretien defending our Northern Passage - even militarily - against claims by other countries including USA.

Stephen Harper did.

Yes, the same brilliant Stephen Harper who claimed on US television that a majority of Canadians wanted Chretien to invade Iraq:

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20030404/harper_fox_interview_030404/

Harper is far more willing to disagree with US policies now that his hero George Bush is not in the White House.

[nicky10013]

Never heard Chretien cutting Chinese dictators to size. Stephen Haper did - and was criticized for it by Ignatieff.

Liberals were always brownosing Beijing. Since Trudeau.

Trade with China helps the Canadian economy.

What doesn't help the Canadian economy is settling the softwood lumber dispute by effectively letting the US government screw us with our pants on.

[normanchateau]

What doesn't help the Canadian economy is settling the softwood lumber dispute by effectively letting the US government screw us with our pants on.

When David Emerson was a Liberal Cabinet minister, he declined to accept the same softwood lumber agreement that David Emerson, the Conservative Cabinet Minister, subsequently approved. And ever since, Canadians have paying for Canada's capitulation. Another brilliant Stephen Harper strategy

[blueblood]

Trade with China helps the Canadian economy.

What doesn't help the Canadian economy is settling the softwood lumber dispute by effectively letting the US government screw us with our pants on.

No big deal china is now our number 1 lumber destination. Softwood lumber is chump change in terms of importance of things going south. I'd rather have a friendly usa that will put capital to developing our other more valuable resources.

[William Ashley]

Is it bychance, the same prime minister who only a few short weeks earlier advised us to tread nice and softly with another frindly dictators. Good that some truths have dawned on him..hopefully. Though one can never be sure..

Killing unarmed people is a crime, if there's one universally agreed about in the world. I do hope that Gaddafi will be judged by his own people though. Along with his thugs.

Lots of unarmed people in Canada have been killed. Take the Robert Dziekański Taser incident for example. Or countless of other incidences where police have killed unarmed people. These are so called crimes you state that havn't had the police arrested, so your statement is false.

the question that the NORM for this type of situation is - did the people pose a risk, or was use of force to reduce greater harm. We see the country today in a civil war with hundreds of dead. If there was an armed insurrection in Canada such as the FLQ crisis --- the military was trained to attack the people of Quebec, take over vital instituitons ---- even if it ment killing Canadians.

There is no moral high ground here for Canada.

The reality is Gadhafi didn't do anything Canada wasn't prepared to do. Nothing Canada didn't train for, and nothing that didn't actually happen when the war measures act occured.

The US has had similiar incidences such as calling in the military contrary the Posse Comitatus Act.

The bottom line here is - it ain't nothing they havn't done. And it ain't nothing they won't or havn't done again -- national security doesn't obey the law, it protects national security in Canada atleast that places them BEYOND the law... and they do go beyond the law.

Even if it is a good moral position the idea of invading the country to "reduce harm" in this context.. or errors in the rule of law are completely circumstnatial until someone demonstrates what laws Gadhafi broke.... if he didn't have the authority to do what was done - or if what was done wasn't done to reduce greater destabalization such as in Egypt or Libya where the governments were more or less sometimes by violence looting and murder deposed to some extent.

You seem to be forgetting in those other two countries people were murdered, and mass looting occured. Those are lawless occurence - crimes... these are not "non consqeuential people" they are people who are breaking the laws of their country to overthrow the government - even if a good cause in a legal context they are criminals ---

The event and what is happening now are two seperate contexts.

Its fine to support the cause but don't lie to support it, tell the truth if you support it for what it is. no one needs to lie. Why do you need to trick people into supporting something? Shouldn't you be able to tell the truth and people support it?

They were warned not to protest in the streets or squares. They did anyway in definance of the decree.

Edited March 3, 2011 by William Ashley

[nicky10013]

No big deal china is now our number 1 lumber destination. Softwood lumber is chump change in terms of importance of things going south. I'd rather have a friendly usa that will put capital to developing our other more valuable resources.

So if we pushed on lumber they wouldn't want to develop our oil fields? Did that ever stop them from coming up and developing the fields before? Oh, yeah, that's right...no.

[blueblood]

So if we pushed on lumber they wouldn't want to develop our oil fields? Did that ever stop them from coming up and developing the fields before? Oh, yeah, that's right...no.

And what would you do to "push back"? Make uncle sam Say uncle on the softwood or we have fun with oil and other resources?

There is a lack of capital concerning canadian resources and its a good thing we are providing as friendly of an environment as possible. Softwood lumber negotiations are a part of that.

[normanchateau]

Never heard Chretien defending our Northern Passage - even militarily - against claims by other countries including USA.

Stephen Harper did.

And when push comes to shove, I'm sure Stephen Harper will defend our Northern Passage against US claims as strongly as he defended Canada's softwood lumber producers. Bending over to the US and helpfully providing the vaseline has been Harper's strategy ever since he addressed Americans on US television and claimed, in contrast to Chretien, that a majority of Canadians support the US invasion of Iraq.

[M.Dancer]

And when push comes to shove, I'm sure Stephen Harper will defend our Northern Passage against US claims as strongly as he defended Canada's softwood lumber producers. Bending over to the US and helpfully providing the vaseline has been Harper's strategy ever since he addressed Americans on US television and claimed, in contrast to Chretien, that a majority of Canadians support the US invasion of Iraq.

The US doesn't have a claim on the North West Passage. They, like nearly every other maritime nation, consider it international waters.

[Saipan]

And when push comes to shove, I'm sure Stephen Harper will defend our Northern Passage against US

Yes, he made it crystal clear to G.W. Bush, after which Bush said simply they have to agree to disagree.

Northern Passage is Canada.

[PIK]

Trade with China helps the Canadian economy.

What doesn't help the Canadian economy is settling the softwood lumber dispute by effectively letting the US government screw us with our pants on.

You mean all those trade missions chretien kept taking to china, for what a few million in deals. What was really going on was him and his buddy maurice strong were setting up their carbon credit company for a nice retirement. Now that is totally against the law ,working on your retirement while being PM. How many times has chretien been to china since , many times.

[William Ashley]

And when push comes to shove, I'm sure Stephen Harper will defend our Northern Passage against US claims as strongly as he defended Canada's softwood lumber producers. Bending over to the US and helpfully providing the vaseline has been Harper's strategy ever since he addressed Americans on US television and claimed, in contrast to Chretien, that a majority of Canadians support the US invasion of Iraq.

This is a bad example because Canada still didn't get all its money and got screwed over by it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yes, he made it crystal clear to G.W. Bush, after which Bush said simply they have to agree to disagree.

Northern Passage is Canada.

Don't be too hard on PM Harper....none of his predecessors kept the Americans out of the "Northern Passage" either. They would just grant permission after the fact...very practical!