GWiz Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Are suggesting personal financial freedom is at the root of this?? But I thought we were living in some stultifying quasi Communist financial/economic system?? Nope... FREE market society... Individual FREEDOM at it's very core... Well at least before Harper made his "nanny state" regulations on the banks telling them how to structure loans and mortgages so some people can't get loans or buy houses any more... Didn't affect me or anyone with some cash and no debt, but a young family starting out, well, "screw them", the Harper Gov. said... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonsa Posted February 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 That's OK...it's not the government's money. He "gave" nothing. Thats right its the peoples money, not the governments. If a government decides not to collect taxes from corporations, they are making a decision to decrease the revenue of the state. In decreasing the revenue of the state that government is DEPRIVING the state of those monies and therefore is placing a greater burden on the people. It never fails to amaze me that americans aren't willing to pay for their exceptionalism, their superiority, their military dominance, their wars, their massive mistakes. they'd rather borrow money and burden the future and cut spending to programs that actually help people (although getting rid of subsidies and waste is always a good thing). When is somebody going to tell them slashing spending isn't going to reduce the debt and its impossible to slash spending to equal current tax holiday revenue levels. Its pretty easy to do the math, but for some reason americans can't quite grasp the concept of paying for the wins and sins of their country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 It never fails to amaze me that americans aren't willing to pay for their exceptionalism, their superiority, their military dominance, their wars, their massive mistakes. they'd rather borrow money and burden the future and cut spending to programs that actually help people (although getting rid of subsidies and waste is always a good thing). Who paid for WW2? Loaned money and materials to your broke dick Commonwealth, financed the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe, Cold War, etc., etc. When is somebody going to tell them slashing spending isn't going to reduce the debt and its impossible to slash spending to equal current tax holiday revenue levels. Part of the debt is paying for debt service...buy a vowel...get a clue. Its pretty easy to do the math, but for some reason americans can't quite grasp the concept of paying for the wins and sins of their country. Last time I checked, Canada had over a half a trillion in debt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Contracts are honoured in the private sector?? Are they??? U.S.Steel in Hamilton,Ontario right now... U.S.Steel at Nanticoke,Ontario last year.... Vale/Inco last year in Sudbury,Ontario... Vale/Inco last year in Port Colborne,Ontario... All either lengthy lockouts or strikes ove the company welching on pension obligations and multi-tiered wage levels,and in some case,seniority rights... Not a word from the Harper Con's,who have a signed agreement with US Steel in hand that obligates them to not shift production to the States and to fund the pension plan... Guess what two (2) things they've done??? I could into more about the private sector and it's living up to its contractual obligations,but you get the idea... Basically,you don't trust them farhter than they can be thrown... Again...none of what you've just posted has anything to do with a free market economy. Of course Harper's neo-con party has sat on their hands...of course current private contracts have been breached...we don't live in a sink-or-swim free market economy and thus we're living with the consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Again...none of what you've just posted has anything to do with a free market economy. Of course Harper's neo-con party has sat on their hands...of course current private contracts have been breached...we don't live in a sink-or-swim free market economy and thus we're living with the consequences. And,thankfully... Nothing you have posted is anything more than Friedmanite/Von Hayek theory/fantasy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Because the individual opting out and annual recert voted go directly the RTW tactic of financially breaking the backs of individual union locals...Which is the point of RTW... Never mind the fact that as long as their is a grievance process,the union loclas will be legally obligated to represent employees who don't pay dues??? You knew that,correct? It gets better... The union can still be sued for lack of representation by the individual if they feel the local did not do it's utmost to protect the non dues paying employee!!! And you still don't see how,if this passes,it could be easily enacted to include the private sector unions??? In a free market economy...meaning (as you don't seem to understand) free of government intervention...this problem would not exist. The government would have no say over the affairs of any business or private sector union. If you believe it is the goal of US legislators to break the back of private sector unions along with those in the public sector it doesn't matter. In the end a free market economy will address all of the imbalances currently in place...and all of those you say are in the works. There will be an eventual complete repudiation of socialistic spending practices and the idea of government trying to influence private sector unions will be a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Yes and no....Wisconsin has a short term operating deficit that can be managed, but longer term unfunded obligations that must be reigned in. Here are the numbers: http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Wisconsin_state_budget All state budgets: http://sunshinereview.org/index.php/Transparency_in_your_state By debt I mean the unfunded obligations as well...it all counts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 So is the fact that Walker GAVE $67 MILLION in tax breaks to Corporations that supported his campaign... Complete nonsense. Walker as proposed tax breaks for any businesses that move from out of state into Wisconsin. You know, so people have jobs. Your assertion is pure public propaganda poop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 In a free market economy...meaning (as you don't seem to understand) free of government intervention...this problem would not exist. The government would have no say over the affairs of any business or private sector union. If you believe it is the goal of US legislators to break the back of private sector unions along with those in the public sector it doesn't matter. In the end a free market economy will address all of the imbalances currently in place...and all of those you say are in the works. There will be an eventual complete repudiation of socialistic spending practices and the idea of government trying to influence private sector unions will be a moot point. I completely understand.. That's why I reject Free Market theory as a pure Capitalists wet dream... Barriers are there for a reason.... Your position is an extremists position that is simply untennable and not based in reality... The same as Marxism was never based in reality.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 If a government decides not to collect taxes from corporations, they are making a decision to decrease the revenue of the state. Pure public sector propaganda poop. Walker's proposed tax breaks are for corporations or businesses that move into Wisconsin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 So is the fact that Walker GAVE $67 MILLION in tax breaks to Corporations that supported his campaign... Yeah, and? He gave tax breaks, but he didn't extend them far enough...everyone should get a tax break...permanently. He's doing the right thing with the public sector unions, but perhaps that's in spite of himself. Could be he's just another neo-con idiot...either way he's right to break the unions if he can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Yeah, and? He gave tax breaks, but he didn't extend them far enough...everyone should get a tax break...permanently. He's doing the right thing with the public sector unions, but perhaps that's in spite of himself. Could be he's just another neo-con idiot...either way he's right to break the unions if he can. All unions??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Sorry..I don't buy it... Your version of "freedom" is a horrendous Capitalist nightmare as bad as any Marxist nightmare... It's an extremists position... No thanks... You dismiss something good out of turn because it's "extremist"? I feel sorry for you. A "horrendous Capitalist nightmare"? Freedom is a great thing...why do you want to be limited? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 You dismiss something good out of turn because it's "extremist"? I feel sorry for you. A "horrendous Capitalist nightmare"? Freedom is a great thing...why do you want to be limited? I dismiss it because your version of economic freedom is only in your mind... Yours is a plan to redistribute wealth upwards into the hands of the few...That's not freedom... No thanks...Not interested... And I could'nt care any less what some Albertan libertarian thinks of this proud Eastern Bastard... Just pump the oil and make us some money.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 That's a bald faced LIE... No one FORCES someone to go into debt, if you are in debt, you chose to be... I choose not to be and am not in debt... Don't make excuses, do without... Do without? So it's ok for individuals to do without, but not government? So, you're not in debt? Either you're quite exceptional, or you're lying. All caught up on your credit cards? Student loan(s)? Paid off your mortgage? Paid off your vehicle? Appliances? Lines of credit? Give me a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Yours is a plan to redistribute wealth upwards into the hands of the few...That's not freedom... People keeping more of their own money isn't redistribution upwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 (edited) People keeping more of their own money isn't redistribution upwards. Really??? Explain RTW and the wage disparity,benny plan quality,and time loss injury stats in RTW states as opposed to Free Collective Bargaining states... Of course,being an expert on the subject,you've looked into this,right? Where does that wealth go,Professor??? And you have'nt attempted to answer post 1105... No selective quoting Professor... Edited February 24, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Nope... FREE market society... Individual FREEDOM at it's very core... Well at least before Harper made his "nanny state" regulations on the banks telling them how to structure loans and mortgages so some people can't get loans or buy houses any more... Didn't affect me or anyone with some cash and no debt, but a young family starting out, well, "screw them", the Harper Gov. said... Harper is in favour of continuing the nanny-State, no doubt. The government has no business regulating loans/mortgages...they have business in price-fixing. And quit saying we live in a free market society...we don't, nowhere near it. You and others who are against living in a free market cannot seem to get out of your own way...do you not realize how much better off you'd be living in a free market? I suppose I already know the answer to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Harper is in favour of continuing the nanny-State, no doubt. The government has no business regulating loans/mortgages...they have business in price-fixing. And quit saying we live in a free market society...we don't, nowhere near it. You and others who are against living in a free market cannot seem to get out of your own way...do you not realize how much better off you'd be living in a free market? I suppose I already know the answer to this. No one's buying your Capitalist Utopian theory...er...Nightmare scenario... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 And,thankfully... Nothing you have posted is anything more than Friedmanite/Von Hayek theory/fantasy... Well unfortunately for you and other Statists...your fun is coming to an end...finally. The debt crises will reach their logical conclusion, and even if its dragged kicking and screaming, society will embrace free market principles because soon enough there will be no other option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Really??? Explain RTW and the wage disparity,benny plan quality,and time loss injury stats in RTW states as opposed to Free Collective Bargaining states... Of course,being an expert on the subject,you've looked into this,right? Where does that wealth go,Professor??? And you have'nt attempted to answer post 1105... No selective quoting Professor... Why would I address your litany of nonsense? I was specifically refering to his plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Well unfortunately for you and other Statists...your fun is coming to an end...finally. The debt crises will reach their logical conclusion, and even if its dragged kicking and screaming, society will embrace free market principles because soon enough there will be no other option. True...it has been driven into the stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 Well unfortunately for you and other Statists...your fun is coming to an end...finally. The debt crises will reach their logical conclusion, and even if its dragged kicking and screaming, society will embrace free market principles because soon enough there will be no other option. Please describe my "statism"??? And I hope it never gets bad enough to reach a horrific scenario you propose... Yours is essentially Corporate Fascism dressed up as freedom... No thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 I completely understand.. That's why I reject Free Market theory as a pure Capitalists wet dream... Barriers are there for a reason.... Your position is an extremists position that is simply untennable and not based in reality... The same as Marxism was never based in reality.... My "extremist" position is the only logical position to have. And eventually it will be the only philosophy left standing. As our current troubles highlight...the present way of doing things doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleLeafAlliance Posted February 24, 2011 Report Share Posted February 24, 2011 All unions??? No silly...just the public sector unions...i.e. the ones I've been talking about all this time. I don't care what happens with private sector unions as long as it doesn't effect my wallet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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