Raising the US debt ceiling

[Moonlight Graham]

Can't find the other thread for monday markets, but i predict on Monday stocks will go down at first (who would buy right at the bell? Either they sell or just watch it), then go up and down like a yo-yo for the rest of the day. No clue on the final day tally but likely down overall.

[bush_cheney2004]

Can't find the other thread for monday markets, but i predict on Monday stocks will go down at first (who would buy right at the bell? Either they sell or just watch it)....

I hope stock prices crash hard on Monday...I'm looking for a lower entry point.

[Sir Bandelot]

What huge cuts to what services?

You yourself indicated what's happening in London, in another thread. Those people are seeing the same type of things in their economy as is happening elsewhere. What happens in one country affects what happens in others. What happens with the US economy is perhaps most significant of all.

We don't know yet what the coming cuts are, for Americans. Some kind of committee is going to decide that in the coming months. But there's going to have to be cuts. And regardless of what they are now, I suspect this will only be the first round.

He was responding to your claim: Joebob average is too beaten down psychologically to take the chance and speak out, for fear of getting arrested and consequently losing their jobs.

He's right. That IS "your interpretation." No more, no less. It certainly isn't the reality of the average American (which I can only assume is what you meant with your reference to "Joebob average"). So the only thing he was "blowing off" was your interpretation - and there was nothing foolish or ignorant about it. Quite the opposite, actually.

This forum is all about interpretation. You and bonam disagree with mine.

When bonam says "Perhaps they are just content and feel no need to protest?", I'm not talking about the people who are content. I'm not talking about the people like him who are doing well. So that is side-stepping the issue.

I NEVER believed in Obama's promises for change. I hoped I was wrong, but sadly was right. The very nature of power and politics means that you must be dishonest in order to succeed. It doesn't take a gifted child to figure this stuff out.

Else, it's a bullet in the head.

Maybe I'm just more pessimistic about who pays for the mistakes made by other people. But yeah, that's my interpretation.

[Bonam]

I hope stock prices crash hard on Monday...I'm looking for a lower entry point.

It worked great for me back in 2008 / early 2009. Got some amazing deals on stocks that have more than tripled since than. Sadly I was only a student and only had a few k to invest at the time. Would sure be nice if things dipped down that low again, but I don't see it happening.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Bonam

[Bonam]

When bonam says "Perhaps they are just content and feel no need to protest?", I'm not talking about the people who are content. I'm not talking about the people like him who are doing well. So that is side-stepping the issue.

I NEVER believed in Obama's promises for change. I hoped I was wrong, but sadly was right. The very nature of power and politics means that you must be dishonest in order to succeed. It doesn't take a gifted child to figure this stuff out.

Else, it's a bullet in the head.

Maybe I'm just more pessimistic about who pays for the mistakes made by other people. But yeah, that's my interpretation.

When enough people are discontented, they protest. It's a matter of numbers. You seemed to state that we aren't protesting like the Arabs are, and that this is because everyone is too beaten down and afraid to protest, and that this is a bad reflection on our society. Well, I'd wager we are a lot less oppressed and afraid of our governments than those Arabs are. The reason we aren't protesting? Because things are a heck of a lot better here. The fact that we have less protests is a good thing, not a bad thing. We have a better society in which more people are content and see no need to protest.

People aren't afraid to go crazy over a freaking hockey game for crying out loud. If they had real issues that they cared about at least as much as that hockey game, they'd be protesting about those too. They aren't, and that says everything that need be said.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Bonam

[bush_cheney2004]

It worked great for me back in 2008 / early 2009. Got some amazing deals on stocks that have more than tripled since than. Sadly I was only a student and only had a few k to invest at the time. Would sure be nice if things dipped down that low again, but I don't see it happening.

Oh yea....that's what i'm talkin' 'bout. Jumped on that sucker hard when the Dow slumped below 6500 and rode it all the way up to 11,500, then bailed. There is a ceiling below 13,000 for now, so not much upside recently. Monday is an opportunity to repeat the roller coaster ride.

[Bonam]

Oh yea....that's what i'm talkin' 'bout. Jumped on that sucker hard when the Dow slumped below 6500 and rode it all the way up to 11,500, then bailed. There is a ceiling below 13,000 for now, so not much upside recently. Monday is an opportunity to repeat the roller coaster ride.

If it really crashes on Monday, for real, it'll keep crashing for a week or more thereafter, as panic sets in. But if it's just a one day loss of a few hundred points, it's not really comparable to the 2008 opportunity.

[Guest American Woman]

You yourself indicated what's happening in London, in another thread. Those people are seeing the same type of things in their economy as is happening elsewhere. What happens in one country affects what happens in others. What happens with the US economy is perhaps most significant of all.

We don't know yet what the coming cuts are, for Americans. Some kind of committee is going to decide that in the coming months. But there's going to have to be cuts. And regardless of what they are now, I suspect this will only be the first round.

What you "suspect" and what is the reality are not by any means one and the same. Same as all of the "America is refusing to pay it's debt!" cries of doom and gloom didn't come to pass. Surprise, surprise.' So Americans aren't as a whole sitting around worrying about what might be. Some are. Some always are. It's the nature of the beast - in any country. I dare say there are those who have worried in Canada, yet Canada as we know it didn't cease to exist during the more trying times.

As for what's happening in London, that was triggered by a specific event in a specific area of a low economic neighborhood. Quite different from predicting what's going to happen in another country entirely with a different government entirely with a population of 300+ million. Furthermore, if I were dealing with cuts as my tax dollars supported royalty, I might be inclined to protest too. But then my forefathers already did that for me.

This forum is all about interpretation. You and bonam disagree with mine.

Yes, we do. And that doesn't make us foolish or ignorant - and as I said, the only thing we are blowing off is your interpretation.

When bonam says "Perhaps they are just content and feel no need to protest?", I'm not talking about the people who are content. I'm not talking about the people like him who are doing well. So that is side-stepping the issue.

No, when you speak of "joebob average," you are speaking of the average American citizen, and the average American citizen IS doing well.

Maybe I'm just more pessimistic about who pays for the mistakes made by other people. But yeah, that's my interpretation.

And maybe you're just wrong about how well the average American citizen is doing. Bonam is living in the U.S. and I'm an American citizen who has always lived in the U.S. My quality of life - how well I'm doing - hasn't changed. Nor has any of my family's or extended family's or friends or their friends. I know some would like to believe that life in the U.S. really sucks, but it doesn't. Any more than your life sucked when your country wasn't in the best place it's been ............... and yet you weren't doomed for eternity.

But bottom line - it's just as Bonam said. The idea that we would be protesting but for our fear is ludicrous and really indicates that you have no idea of the reality of the situation here in the U.S. - or of Americans.

[Bonam]

And maybe you're just wrong about how well the average American citizen is doing. Bonam is living in the U.S. and I'm an American citizen who has always lived in the U.S. My quality of life - how well I'm doing - hasn't changed.

Yup, it's not nearly as bad in the US as international media would have one believe. The company I'm working for has grown about tenfold in revenue in the last 2 years, for example. That's to be expected for a small startup I guess. But everyone I know is getting hired for new jobs, getting raises, moving to better apartments or buying condos/houses. New bridges and roads are getting built, new theaters, new office buildings. It's boom times here

And, of course, new technologies keep coming into existence and continue to make our lives more convenient and saving us money.

But bottom line - it's just as Bonam said. The idea that we would be protesting but for our fear is ludicrous and really indicates that you have no idea of the reality of the situation here in the U.S. - or of Americans.

Indeed. Or for Canadians for that matter, I think Bandelot was referring to both countries.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Bonam

[bush_cheney2004]

If it really crashes on Monday, for real, it'll keep crashing for a week or more thereafter, as panic sets in. But if it's just a one day loss of a few hundred points, it's not really comparable to the 2008 opportunity.

Agreed...it is hard to catch a falling knife, but not a falling battle axe!

[bush_cheney2004]

...But bottom line - it's just as Bonam said. The idea that we would be protesting but for our fear is ludicrous and really indicates that you have no idea of the reality of the situation here in the U.S. - or of Americans.

Good observation....were there bloody riots in the streets when Canada was flat on its ass with debt spiraling out of control and bond rating downgrades back in the 1990's (Canadian peso days)?

Edited August 7, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

[Sir Bandelot]

What you "suspect" and what is the reality are not by any means one and the same. Same as all of the "America is refusing to pay it's debt!" cries of doom and gloom didn't come to pass. Surprise, surprise.' So Americans aren't as a whole sitting around worrying about what might be. Some are. Some always are. It's the nature of the beast - in any country. I dare say there are those who have worried in Canada, yet Canada as we know it didn't cease to exist during the more trying times.

As for what's happening in London, that was triggered by a specific event in a specific area of a low economic neighborhood. Quite different from predicting what's going to happen in another country entirely with a different government entirely with a population of 300+ million. Furthermore, if I were dealing with cuts as my tax dollars supported royalty, I might be inclined to protest too. But then my forefathers already did that for me.

Yes, we do. And that doesn't make us foolish or ignorant - and as I said, the only thing we are blowing off is your interpretation.

No, when you speak of "joebob average," you are speaking of the average American citizen, and the average American citizen IS doing well.

And maybe you're just wrong about how well the average American citizen is doing. Bonam is living in the U.S. and I'm an American citizen who has always lived in the U.S. My quality of life - how well I'm doing - hasn't changed. Nor has any of my family's or extended family's or friends or their friends. I know some would like to believe that life in the U.S. really sucks, but it doesn't. Any more than your life sucked when your country wasn't in the best place it's been ............... and yet you weren't doomed for eternity.

But bottom line - it's just as Bonam said. The idea that we would be protesting but for our fear is ludicrous and really indicates that you have no idea of the reality of the situation here in the U.S. - or of Americans.

I never said those things will apply to all Americans. Most are living quite well. But the times are changing, as evidenced in the past few years. Times are harder now, and will get harder still. All of these comments came out of my initial observation that people are complaining about their economic problems in other countries, and we are on the same road to difficult times.

Hopefully it's just another dip in the graph that will swing upward again. That's typical, although what we hear in this case are words like "unprecedented...", and the trillions figure keeps going up. I don't think it's doomsday, but times are going to continue getting harder, for a while.

The particulars of what happens, how bad, who pays for it are yet to be seen. My pessimistic nature says that the middle and lower classes will pay the most.

If you folks disagree? Oh well.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Hopefully it's just another dip in the graph that will swing upward again. That's typical, although what we hear in this case are words like "unprecedented...", and the trillions figure keeps going up. I don't think it's doomsday, but times are going to continue getting harder, for a while.

Harder than what? Harder than free healthcare, housing, food stamps, and internet access? Is that your baseline for determining what is going to be "harder", returning to an acceptable level of "misery" that was aspired to over 50 years ago?

I don't get it....does "harder" mean the life will stop getting so much easier?

[Sir Bandelot]

When enough people are discontented, they protest. It's a matter of numbers. You seemed to state that we aren't protesting like the Arabs are, and that this is because everyone is too beaten down and afraid to protest, and that this is a bad reflection on our society. Well, I'd wager we are a lot less oppressed and afraid of our governments than those Arabs are. The reason we aren't protesting? Because things are a heck of a lot better here. The fact that we have less protests is a good thing, not a bad thing. We have a better society in which more people are content and see no need to protest.

It's certainly not a fair comparison between us and the people living in those oppressive countries. We do however tend to roll over and take the abuse more here than in some western countries, where people are more politically active. Their problems may also be greater than ours. I'm thinking about London a few months ago, when tuition fees for university tripled.

Of course, students tend to be a bit more shall we say, aggressive in expressing their discontent. But I'm sure there are other examples in central Europe, and around the Mediterranean where people have gotten rather pissed off at what their authorities were doing. We seem more complacent and I wonder why that is.

Now you are arguing that it's because we're not as bad off. Perhaps... but I'm not convinced. If those things that happened in London in May also happened here in Canada, I'd be surprised to see a similar response from Joebob average.

I don't believe people are as afraid of their government as they might be of their corporate employer. Eg., if you engage in a peaceful protest, the government cannot fire you or put you in jail. But your employer could let you go. They have their own by-laws and ability to decide things that are not always bound by law.

People aren't afraid to go crazy over a freaking hockey game for crying out loud. If they had real issues that they cared about at least as much as that hockey game, they'd be protesting about those too. They aren't, and that says everything that need be said.

Ok, but I still think the hockey game thing was caused by a group of anarchists who had planned to make a big deal out of it, before the puck was even dropped.

[Sir Bandelot]

Harder than what? Harder than free healthcare, housing, food stamps, and internet access? Is that your baseline for determining what is going to be "harder", returning to an acceptable level of "misery" that was aspired to over 50 years ago?

I don't get it....does "harder" mean the life will stop getting so much easier?

Companies closin down, or moved to Mexico. Take a look in the mirror, meet the new Mexicans...

[bush_cheney2004]

Companies closin down, or moved to Mexico. Take a look in the mirror, meet the new Mexicans...

You gotta problem with Mexicans? What about call center and auto manufacturing jobs moved to Canada?

Here's the thing....you are espousing an employment ideal that existed in the past and cannot continue. Meanwhile, you want the present attributes of the "good life" to continue. Make up your mind....

[Sir Bandelot]

Here's the thing....you are espousing an employment ideal that existed in the past and cannot continue. Meanwhile, you want the present attributes of the "good life" to continue. Make up your mind....

How is it inconsistent? The selloff of jobs to third world countries ate out the very centre of consumer driven capitalism. Without consumer spending it all comes to a halt.

[Oleg Bach]

I would say that the people lead a better lifestyle in most Western European countries than Americans do (or Canadians) due to their more cohesive, cooperative societies. The rat race is far slower there, and people have more time for their families and to enjoy life.

The more "cohesive" (sticky collectivism)? "Rat race is far slower" (still a rat race) - Co-operative - I think you mean submissive to a utilitarianism...is it better or worse here? Personally I don't know - if you have a large disposable income - life is probably interesting and good - If you are poor in the west - you have the nicest and largest prison on earth - not much different than China - other than the fact that we are not forced to wear those drone outfits.

[bush_cheney2004]

How is it inconsistent? The selloff of jobs to third world countries ate out the very centre of consumer driven capitalism. Without consumer spending it all comes to a halt.

Really?

My neighbour hangs clothing to dry on cotton lines suspended between poles. There is also a bag of clothes pins at the ready that must be manually affixed to the hanging clothes. After solar drying, the clothing must be retrieved in opposite fashion. Now, is her life "harder", or "worse" than mine?

Are you saying she needs to go out and buy an electric or gas dryer to keep capitalism comfortable and less afraid?

That's what I'm talking about....harder can be better.

[Oleg Bach]

Really?

My neighbour hangs clothing to dry on cotton lines suspended between poles. There is also a bag of clothes pins at the ready that must be manually affixed to the hanging clothes. After solar drying, the clothing must be retrieved in opposite fashion. Now, is her life "harder", or "worse" than mine?

Are you saying she needs to go out and buy an electric or gas dryer to keep capitalism comfortable and less afraid?

That's what I'm talking about....harder can be better.

Solar drying is free energy - I have a line on across my roof top patio - just don't let the clothes get too soiled - a quick hand wash and you have underwear and socks for the weak - is this harder than having to work harder to pay the electical bill for drying drying? Is it harder than dragging a bag of rags down to the corner laundry? I would say that going to the laundry is more of a chore - It cost me over twenty bucks to launder clothing the electical way...as for food- once I get back to the coutry - I know what good soil is...I can grow a lot and live longer than going to McDonalds and dying a quicker and fatter.

[Sir Bandelot]

Really?

My neighbour hangs clothing to dry on cotton lines suspended between poles. There is also a bag of clothes pins at the ready that must be manually affixed to the hanging clothes. After solar drying, the clothing must be retrieved in opposite fashion. Now, is her life "harder", or "worse" than mine?

Are you saying she needs to go out and buy an electric or gas dryer to keep capitalism comfortable and less afraid?

That's what I'm talking about....harder can be better.

Thanks for being more clear in what you really mean. I understand now. That is how we live here, we also use a clothesline.

Let me say I disagree with the consumer driven model as it's now been exploited to the point that it no longer works. Yes, because for one thing people are naturally turning away from buying unnecessary things. So-called consumer confidence has fallen, and we can argue about why that is. But I think for a number of reasons, economic, environmental, and the information age I doubt it will ever be restored. So in order for the system to thrive once again IT has to change.

Here's an anecdote, my wife had been using the same clothes pins for years. Over a very long time, many of them wore out and she needed to buy more. She bought some in a bag and they were made in China. They don't work. Although they're brand-new clothes pins, the spring is cheaply made and they keep "pinging" off the clothesline. And the wood is thinner and smaller. She told me about it and I thought, shameful that they should market junk like that to people who are willing to spend good money on it.

[Oleg Bach]

Most of the product from China is a ruse and illusion - it is non-product...For instance the classic western dollar store is not worth even a dollar..quality control does not exist - It is all about profit..and the customer is not always right - who are you going to complain to when you buy what looks like a heavy Canadian garden rake and it falls apart in less than a day? Are you going to stand on the coast of Vancouver Island and yell across the ocean "I want my money back you cheap bastards"

[Jack Weber]

Ummmmm.... so what are you saying? That anyone with a good life that's only getting better is guilty of personal greed within society? By your remarks, I can only assume that a) you don't think your life is good and getting better or your life is about personal greed within society .....

Nope...

Just making a statement about Roger Waters lyrics on the song Money off the album Dark Side of the Moon....

[pinko]

You gotta problem with Mexicans? What about call center and auto manufacturing jobs moved to Canada?

Here's the thing....you are espousing an employment ideal that existed in the past and cannot continue. Meanwhile, you want the present attributes of the "good life" to continue. Make up your mind....

When I was down in Texas I noticed that all the yard work in the gated area my son lived in was done by Mexicans. Most of those call centre jobs and auto manufacturing jobs have moved elsewhere. You need to keep up with the times.

[Jack Weber]

How is it inconsistent? The selloff of jobs to third world countries ate out the very centre of consumer driven capitalism. Without consumer spending it all comes to a halt.

That's the bitch of it all for the free marketeers...

People can only consume so much in a society that no longer produces but only consumes...

The jobs that used allow for the discretionary spending are gone and have been replaced with jobs that most people cannot live the life they once had on...

Oh well...The race to impoverish as many people as they can continues unabated...