Raising the US debt ceiling

punked · July 16, 2011

Exactly. Maybe Manitoba should increase its debt. Yeah, I think it should. I they should increase their debt by a large margin.

The argument is more complex then increase or don't increase the debt but I see that point escapes you.

Shady · July 16, 2011

The argument is more complex then increase or don't increase the debt but I see that point escapes you.

Aw come'on. Just increase your debt already. Quit being so selfish.

Shady · July 16, 2011

Oh and raise taxes. Significantly. I definitely think you guys should raise taxes a lot.

punked · July 16, 2011

Aw come'on. Just increase your debt already. Quit being so selfish.

Again that really isn't the argument we are having. I know it is the argument you think we are having because you don't understand how the American government works, what the repercussion would be, and how to do math but it isn't what we are fighting about.

If Obama could wave his magic wand tomorrow and balance the books, pay SS, the military, America's debts, and Medicare I am sure he would. He can't though Shady so you do ok? How does he pay for it all, go day by day because that is how bills come in. Not month by Month ok? That is the argument we are having.

punked · July 16, 2011

Oh and raise taxes. Significantly. I definitely think you guys should raise taxes a lot.

They should pay their obligations correct? How do you think they pay them Shady? I know how Bush did, he raised the debt ceiling, Oh and Reagan.

punked · July 16, 2011

On Wednesday, Moody’s warned that it was putting the U.S. government credit rating on review for a downgrade. But they didn’t stop there. Another 7,000 debt products that are “directly linked to the U.S. government or are otherwise vulnerable to sovereign risk” were also put on review for a possible downgrade. That’s about $130 billion worth of debt. If America tumbles, so do they. But Moody’s still wasn’t done. An unknown amount of “indirectly linked” debt is also getting reviewed.

If America’s credit rating falls, it’s taking a lot more than just Treasury securities with it. It’s going to take the whole credit market with it. Which, as you’ll remember, is exactly how the subprime housing sector took the economy down in 2008.

The article goes on. Don't worry though because Shady says nothing will happen because he an expert like those guys at Moody's. No wait he isn't he can't even add.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/post/how-default-would-harm-homeowners-cities-businesses-and-everyone-else/2011/07/11/gIQAELwVGI_blog.html#pagebreak

Oleg Bach · July 16, 2011

Again that really isn't the argument we are having. I know it is the argument you think we are having because you don't understand how the American government works, what the repercussion would be, and how to do math but it isn't what we are fighting about.

If Obama could wave his magic wand tomorrow and balance the books, pay SS, the military, America's debts, and Medicare I am sure he would. He can't though Shady so you do ok? How does he pay for it all, go day by day because that is how bills come in. Not month by Month ok? That is the argument we are having.

It's either buy food for the family - or honour the landlord and pay the rent...Obama wants to buy food - but knows that the powers that be demand that he pay the rent and let the American family go hungry. Here is what has to be negotiated in regards to keeping general American health. Apporach the land lord and explain the long term effects -that if the nation goes hungry - thgat eventually there will be no tenants and in time the land lord will have nothing to lord over. Reasonalbity and an honest presentation is a must. Everybody is afraid to talk about money... as the song goes "moneys to tight to mention"

It's like approaching a rich relative for a loan - you can dance about and avoid the real issue - but eventually you have to come out and ask. The national family needs more money...the wealthy relative can not afford to look upon the supposed indigent in contempt - cos' they are family...BUT family has been known to screw family - then they don't talk till they meet at the funeral - life is too short to bicker.

punked · July 16, 2011

I keep seeing people here say stuff like Oleg. "If this was a household they couldn't just borrow they would have to cut they would have to make tough choices." I agree they would have to make tough choices. Here is an example of what households could chose to do.

My grandparents ran into a problem like this with their three children and household debt piling up. Yes they could have made the choice of turning the heat off for a month or not buying food for a week. They looked at their kids and they could never make them go with out the necessities. Know what they did instead? My grandmother went out and got a job to raise revenues in the house. They feed their kids, kept the heat on, and paid their bills. Why is raising revenues in America such a bad idea? I always worked in my families households.

Oleg Bach · July 16, 2011

I keep seeing people here say stuff like Oleg. "If this was a household they couldn't just borrow they would have to cut they would have to make tough choices." I agree they would have to make tough choices. Here is an example of what households could chose to do.

My grandparents ran into a problem like this with their three children and household debt piling up. Yes they could have made the choice of turning the heat off for a month or not buying food for a week. They looked at their kids and they could never make them go with out the necessities. Know what they did instead? My grandmother went out and got a job to raise revenues in the house. They feed their kids, kept the heat on, and paid their bills. Why is raising revenues in America such a bad idea? I always worked in my families households.

Good story. In my simple mind a nation is a family. Maybe the poor and the rich just don't want to make the effort - They are so use to an artifical credit and levering system that actually doing something might be beyound thei comprehesive ability. As I mentioned to BC - as far as cuts - We would eat the 50 pound bag of potatoes - fried in beef fat and burn scrap wood in the fire place to survive the winter - The fries tasted pretty good - and fetching the wood was fun. Later the family jumped out of poverty and we had a few estates on the go for a while - I used to fish on a private lake stocked with private trout..big ones...so the point is make an effort....credit is like welfare - the rich and the poor are on it.

Oleg Bach · July 16, 2011

I mentioned to my son-inlaw who live in a good hood..but a basement apartment that floods...I said - find the place you want to truely live - negotiate - and ask for what you really want - You would be surprised at the results. The Americans are stricken by a combination of pride and a lack of confidence...ask to maintain the the estate ( nation ) -- explain that you are capable of stewardship and the protection of wealth - the people in control will gladly give you what you need - because you guard their wealth. I with nothing have moved in the past to a fine estate..because they knew that I was a good man who would cut the lawn - plant flowers and keep up the appearance of wealth ----------I would sit on my front porch with five dollars to my name drinking gin...and looking like a million bucks -----It's a case of due diligence - Americans are waiting for something to arrive that will not _ YOU have to water - cut and plant - to maintain wealth - It is not about money _ money is a false god...It is about YOU...and the willingness and skill to create.

pinko · July 16, 2011

I mentioned to my son-inlaw who live in a good hood..but a basement apartment that floods...I said - find the place you want to truely live - negotiate - and ask for what you really want - You would be surprised at the results. The Americans are stricken by a combination of pride and a lack of confidence...ask to maintain the the estate ( nation ) -- explain that you are capable of stewardship and the protection of wealth - the people in control will gladly give you what you need - because you guard their wealth. I with nothing have moved in the past to a fine estate..because they knew that I was a good man who would cut the lawn - plant flowers and keep up the appearance of wealth ----------I would sit on my front porch with five dollars to my name drinking gin...and looking like a million bucks -----It's a case of due diligence - Americans are waiting for something to arrive that will not _ YOU have to water - cut and plant - to maintain wealth - It is not about money _ money is a false god...It is about YOU...and the willingness and skill to create.

The news is full of articles about spending cuts or raising taxes, and cutting entitlement programs–but the cost of war is not generally mentioned, even though it is enormous. A study from Brown University says the cost of American wars begun in September 2001 ranges from 3.7 trillion to 4.4 trillion dollars. To make matters worse, the money for funding the two wars has mainly been borrowed, meaning the United States is on the hook for some huge interest payments. The interest alone on Pentagon spending from 2001 to 2011 has been estimated at $185 billion dollars. If the interest payments are not paid on schedule, they increase. By 2020, the interest payments could be one trillion dollars, says one estimate.

Read more: http://www.care2.com/greenliving/deficit-reduction-talks-what-about-wars.html#ixzz1SIcCNoGy

blueblood · July 16, 2011

I keep seeing people here say stuff like Oleg. "If this was a household they couldn't just borrow they would have to cut they would have to make tough choices." I agree they would have to make tough choices. Here is an example of what households could chose to do.

My grandparents ran into a problem like this with their three children and household debt piling up. Yes they could have made the choice of turning the heat off for a month or not buying food for a week. They looked at their kids and they could never make them go with out the necessities. Know what they did instead? My grandmother went out and got a job to raise revenues in the house. They feed their kids, kept the heat on, and paid their bills. Why is raising revenues in America such a bad idea? I always worked in my families households.

The problem with raising revenue is that it makes it real easy to ramp up spending once the bills are paid. That's the point the tea party makes and its valid. However in this case revenues have to increase because the hole is that big. However obama is going about it all wrong. Entitlement and military spending are a ball and chain on the us economy.

Many ag producers went through this for many years in the 90s. The guys who buried themselves in debt went broke, and the guys who ran junk, spent smartly, and did odd jobs were fine.

Obama is trying to play politics buy using the rich as a whipping boy. It'll get him votes but won't solve the problem. The entitlements have to be slashed and slashed big time, and the vat tax has to come in, might as well get it over with now. I don't see why he would have a problem with a vat tax, since rich people consume more they would be paying their "share" of taxes as well.

To keep the family analogy going here, obama is not asking his wife or kids to get jobs or is not getting a second one, he is wanting to go to his boss and ask for a raise in spite of declining and flat sales for the company.

bush_cheney2004 · July 16, 2011

... Why is raising revenues in America such a bad idea? I always worked in my families households.

Because they will just be spent on ever growing programs and debt service. Starve the beast...bend the curve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

Edited July 16, 2011 by bush_cheney2004

charter.rights · July 16, 2011

Because they will just be spent on ever growing programs and debt service. Starve the beast...bend the curve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

What the US needs is another Boston Tea Party. Quit paying taxes and let the keepers of the government programs pay for their mistakes. Dump foreign products into the sea and take a clue from Indian take a "home spun" approach to goods and services.

The government has one agenda to survive and maintain its power and bureaucracy. Dump it all and take a notch or 20 out of big corporations whom have destroyed America with their policies of profit at all cost. Only then will you be reborn as a free and powerful nation.

bush_cheney2004 · July 16, 2011

...The government has one agenda to survive and maintain its power and bureaucracy. Dump it all and take a notch or 20 out of big corporations whom have destroyed America with their policies of profit at all cost. Only then will you be reborn as a free and powerful nation.

No....you have it backwards. America was founded by land/slave owners who wanted to keep their profits as well. America is already quite free and powerful thank you very much.

A "failed" America would just look like a bigger version of...Canada. Is that so bad?

maple_leafs182 · July 16, 2011

Again that really isn't the argument we are having. I know it is the argument you think we are having because you don't understand how the American government works, what the repercussion would be, and how to do math but it isn't what we are fighting about.

If Obama could wave his magic wand tomorrow and balance the books, pay SS, the military, America's debts, and Medicare I am sure he would. He can't though Shady so you do ok? How does he pay for it all, go day by day because that is how bills come in. Not month by Month ok? That is the argument we are having.

They have to rethink their foreign policy. End all the wars, close many of the bases, bring their troops home. They have to eliminate many of the departments such as the Department of Education and Homeland Security. They need to allow young people to opt out of SS because it is a flawed system. They need to rethink what the role of government should be. We should too.

Raising the debt ceiling won't solve any problems.

Shady · July 17, 2011

Raising taxes is out of the question.

Reagan was promised spending cuts when he agreed to raise taxes. Democrats never gave him those spending cuts.

Bush Sr was promised spending cuts when he agree to raise taxes. Democrats never gave him those spending cuts.

And now we have idiots in the media, and in this forum suggesting that Republicans need to compromise. And accept spending cuts in exchange for tax increases.

Sorry, but fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. This time there will be no third time. Republicans need to stand firm, and demand spending cuts, first, that actually go into effect. No more Democrat shell games.

punked · July 17, 2011

Raising taxes is out of the question.

Reagan was promised spending cuts when he agreed to raise taxes. Democrats never gave him those spending cuts.

Bush Sr was promised spending cuts when he agree to raise taxes. Democrats never gave him those spending cuts.

And now we have idiots in the media, and in this forum suggesting that Republicans need to compromise. And accept spending cuts in exchange for tax increases.

Sorry, but fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. This time there will be no third time. Republicans need to stand firm, and demand spending cuts, first, that actually go into effect. No more Democrat shell games.

Citation needed. I always post a link when you ask so here I am asking. Until you do I will say citation needed.

Oleg Bach · July 17, 2011

Because they will just be spent on ever growing programs and debt service. Starve the beast...bend the curve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

It's like fighting evil - the more you tussle with it the stronger it grows. Best to starve it...stop feeding this monster - The beast IS collective humanity - that has taken on a collective conscousness - problem with this big dragon is that like all monsters it has a tiny brian - to give it credit for being aware is a mistake. The choice is to chop of it's head or starve the thing - right now American leaders are toying with it - feeding it - and there seems not to be a good knight that is willing to step up with the sword and give this thing a good fast loppiing.

The collective (beast) crys out for food - the more you give the stronger it gets and the more it can consume. The brain of this dragon consists of a few people - the body consists of nearly 400 million including illegals and other aliens. One way or another measures have to be taken - the head is stupid - and the body a useless eater...Where is the good knight when we need him . Obama professes to be that knight but is not willing to do battle with the collective - he is concentrating on that tiny head and attempting to reason with it...bad idea - Just do what has to be done - chop!

Smallc · July 17, 2011

Raising taxes is out of the question.

Then so is making a deal.

Oleg Bach · July 17, 2011

Then so is making a deal.

A deal has to be cut. Raising taxes will put a bandage on the problem but the wound will start bleeding again. The debt is so huge that taxing more will not even come close to getting caught up. The money lenders - who are individual human beings - not just some machine - must be approached and a deal has to be made. Interest has crippled most third world nations . Interest is capable of harming a first world nation also - just takes longer.

Oleg Bach · July 17, 2011

Then so is making a deal.

No - a deal must be made. There is no other option.

pinko · July 17, 2011

A deal has to be cut. Raising taxes will put a bandage on the problem but the wound will start bleeding again. The debt is so huge that taxing more will not even come close to getting caught up. The money lenders - who are individual human beings - not just some machine - must be approached and a deal has to be made. Interest has crippled most third world nations . Interest is capable of harming a first world nation also - just takes longer.

Usury has been institutionalized in the USA and is connected to the ability of corporations to manipulate funds both onshore and offshore. You don't honestly believe such altruism will alleviate the current circumstances in the USA do you?

Shady · July 17, 2011

Then so is making a deal.

Sure there is. Cut spending now! Not one of these raise taxes now, and we'll cut spending later on deals. And then the spending cuts never end up materializing. See Reagan's deal in 1986 and Bush Sr's deal in 1990. Both President's agreed to tax hikes for spending cuts. The tax hikes take place. The spending cuts never did. And now Democrats want to do the same thing all over again.

Not to mention that Obama's been dragged kicking and screaming to a ratio of 2 to 1, spending cuts to tax hikes. In the 1990's, Chretien/Martin implemented a ratio of 6 to 1, spending cuts to tax hikes. Can one even imagine Obama agreeing to anything like that? Never. He'd be calling Chretien and Martin the worst names in the book, and accusing them of crimes against humanity. :lol:

punked · July 17, 2011

Sure there is. Cut spending now! Not one of these raise taxes now, and we'll cut spending later on deals. And then the spending cuts never end up materializing. See Reagan's deal in 1986 and Bush Sr's deal in 1990. Both President's agreed to tax hikes for spending cuts. The tax hikes take place. The spending cuts never did. And now Democrats want to do the same thing all over again.

Not to mention that Obama's been dragged kicking and screaming to a ratio of 2 to 1, spending cuts to tax hikes. In the 1990's, Chretien/Martin implemented a ratio of 6 to 1, spending cuts to tax hikes. Can one even imagine Obama agreeing to anything like that? Never. He'd be calling Chretien and Martin the worst names in the book, and accusing them of crimes against humanity.

Citation needed! All I know of the 1986 deal was that Reagan WANT TO INCREASE defense SPENDING by 10% and Democrats didn't because they wouldn't be paid for. In the end he got a 5% increase.

I think someone is rewriting history because he thinks no one will say anything. Well I am saying it. Prove your argument otherwise it is just more crap in Shady fantasy land. Most of us live in the real world not Shady fantasy land.

Edited July 17, 2011 by punked