jbg Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Be honest BC... the only thing you deliver to Canada is horse shit, and you route it though MLW not winnipeg For fertilizer? Oops, not on MLW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I don't honestly see why Canada benefits one way or the other from what happens in the middle east. WE don't need their oil, after all. The United States sticks its oar in there purely out of self-interest. And for other reasons (link). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 How is pointing out that Canadians have a favorable opinion of America and Americans pissing on their carpet? Repeatedly exposing you as a deluded clown is not an anti American activity. Because many Canadians do not have a favorable opinion, and this will be amped up come election time by your major (and minor) political parties. It will continue to permeate Canada if only because of a lack of identity. Then they will watch the Super Bowl anyway....you can't make this stuff up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 The distinction I wanted to make was that it wasn't a matter of propping up a nasty dictator to oppress the people. If the US or Western powers felt there was a legitimate democratic opposition who could take and hold power they would pressure the dictator to give over to them. Thats partially true. There ARE actually some advantages to the US in dealing with dictators as long as they behave, and in some cases dealing with democratically elected government is a lot harder. You forge an alliance with a guy like Mobarak and its good for 30 years. Also a lot of these countries have a very high level of anti western sentiment so encouraging power to be given to the people can actually make it harder for the US to pursue these interests. It depends entirely in the pursuit of those interests, and as long as its relatively stable, what kind of political system is in place is barely even of interest to them. Take Saudi Arabia... the US has had a very productive alliance with the oppressive regime there. But the population is virulently anti American so it would likely have a lot of problems with a democratic government there. So it makes sense to prop them up. Same goes for Mubarak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) I don't honestly see why Canada benefits one way or the other from what happens in the middle east. WE don't need their oil, after all. The United States sticks its oar in there purely out of self-interest. It wants to maintain its own energy supplies, and it wants to ensure that those energy supplies flow to the west, as well, again, not because they're being nice, but because economic chaos in the West threatens American military and economic interests. The United States interferes so broadly simply because it was very broad economic interests at stake. And you in turn do business with the U.S. purely out of self-interest; therefore when we prosper, Canada prospers. Canada willingly, happily does more business with us when we prosper, so it's advantageous to Canada to have us prosper -- so it seems a bit hypocritical to criticize the U.S. while in effect polishing your halo. And other countries are right there with us, in one way or another, to one extent or another. Which again has been my point. But even at that, the problems go far beyond "it's the U.S.'s (et al) fault" and it's mind boggling how some always come back to that. To here tell, the world would be Camelot but for the U.S. She's absolutely right Scotty, we're with them and if we're in for a penny we're in for a pound. Geo-political diddling requires a network of support just like terrorism does and if you're with the diddlers...well, I think this business of propping up dictators is or should be regarded as a crime against humanity myself. In my view there is just no way we should stand for economics trumping virtue. It's disgusting that we do frankly. We should not be selling or buying things from the U.S. any more than we should be the dictatorships they support, for the exact same reasons. If Canada should ever find itself in some international court to account for it's complicity it won't get much resistance from me. Edited January 31, 2011 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) ...We should not be selling or buying things from the U.S. any more than we should be the dictatorships they support, for the exact same reasons. If Canada should ever find itself in some international court to account for it's complicity it won't get much resistance from me. Right....this is the first post I have read here that is congruent with all the anti-American sentiment. Like South African sanctions, Canadians who feel this way should cut off all economic activity with the United States of Evil. That this has not been done speaks volumes about what really matters, hence economics does trump virtue. But you already knew that. Edited January 31, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Because many Canadians do not have a favorable opinion, and this will be amped up come election time by your major (and minor) political parties. It will continue to permeate Canada if only because of a lack of identity. Then they will watch the Super Bowl anyway....you can't make this stuff up. Because many Canadians do not have a favorable opinion Yup. A very small minority however... smaller than in pretty much every other country. What gibberish are you spouting now? More nonsense about Canadians watching the super bowl? It will continue to permeate Canada if only because of a lack of identity No I already destroyed that nonsense. The word means "To spread or flow throughout". Not only has anti americanism failed to spread beyond a small minority in Canada, but Canada is one of the most pro-American countries in the world. Canada if only because of a lack of identity Identity doesnt have to be a collective or statist concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 No I already destroyed that nonsense. The word means "To spread or flow throughout". Not only has anti americanism failed to spread beyond a small minority in Canada, but Canada is one of the most pro-American countries in the world. The only thing you have destroyed is your own credibility. So do you have to pay US and Canadian taxes when working in both nations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 For the sake of focus, let's just try to stay focused on the Middle East. I'm not very familiar, and not particularly interested, in American involvement in the regions you speak of. I also reject your assertion that democracies are less stable than dictatorships. It's too simplistic, and it depends on context. The most stable countries around are democracies. That isn't to say they're the most stable countries simply by virtue of their democratic systems, though. EDIT - I misread your post. It turns out you're saying something pretty preposterous, and I initially overlooked it. You're actually suggesting that America has always had a clear moral choice to make, without any challenging choices to make between balancing the national interest and broad questions of justice and morality. It's such a ridiculous assertion that I don't want to waste much time replying to it. I will say this, however, you've got quite a bit to learn if you can't recognize that America is often in a difficult position where it must balance imperative national interests with ideological and moral considerations. You think America can make the choice to starve itself of Middle Eastern oil in order to take a principled stand against Arab and/or Muslim dictatorships? I won't be soleley focusing on the Middle East because the propping up of Mubarak,and his despotic regime,is just one in a very long line of expedient (but extremely shortsighted) foreign policy decisions.And the fact that your personal myopic view of the world does'nt/won't allow you to see past how this is a symptom of a much larger problem is'nt my problem at allIt's not my problem,or anybody else's for that matter,if you are'nt well versed enough on these issues so as to be unable to expound upon them. Having said that,I should have qualified my democracy thing by saying nascent democracies.They are very fragile...History tells us this... And the US State Department HAS had clear choices to side with democratic movements in many countries they have directly,or indirectly,meddled in internal affairs.20th century history in South,and Central American an the Caribbean,SubSaharan Africa,the Middle East,AND,IndoChina is littered with this.In almost every instance,they have sided with the despotic Fascist out of political and strategic expedience,all the whle proclaiming democracy and freedom..If you chose not to see this,and not have a simple grasp of history,again...Not mine,or anyone else's problem. The rest of your post is the expected slurping praddle... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Right....this is the first post I have read here that is congruent with all the anti-American sentiment. Like South African sanctions, Canadians who feel this way should cut off all economic activity with the United States of Evil. That this has not been done speaks volumes about what really matters, hence economics does trump virtue. But you already knew that. This is not the first post you've read that's congruent with principles and it's certainly not anti-American sentiment per se that I've advocated here several times over the years. All I'm saying is that if you've seen one rogue nation you've seen them all and we should act accordingly when we do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 This is not the first post you've read that's congruent with principles and it's certainly not anti-American sentiment per se that I've advocated here several times over the years. No....this is the first post that positively indentifies Canadian complicity with the status quo AND the step(s) needed to make the rhetoric congruent with actions. Canadians who feel as you do should walk the talk, but they don't. All I'm saying is that if you've seen one rogue nation you've seen them all and we should act accordingly when we do. But you don't....hell, your Head of State is still the Queen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about Canada and its relationship with the U.S. You think you haven't benefited from our actions? Of course you have, which is why so many say if the U.S.'s economy goes down it will have a great affect Canada/the world. Canada being a close ally/huge trading partner with the U.S. has benefited from our economic status. Willingly. Happily. As y'all criticize the actions that got us where we are. Furthermore, Canada has sold us what we need to do what we have done; Canada has been behind us in Iraq, albeit silently so you can carry on about how much better you are, and that's for Canada's benefit -- as we are criticized by the Canadians who are more than happy with their lifestyles as they benefit from that alliance. So many posters here seem to think they know so much about everything, but all of their so-called knowledge boils down to "blame the U.S. for anything/everything bad." There's not even any discussion, really. It's all about the big, bad USA and how it's all our fault. And as I said, nothing good is ever acknowledged. It's all bad. I seriously can't wait for the day when some other nation is the 'cause' of everything bad. I can't wait until another nation is the butt of everyone's criticism. And it will happen, because heaven forbid people take a good long look in the mirror and actually see their compliance/part in it all. So much easier and more pleasant to believe oneself/one's nation holier-than-thou. But fyi, I have traveled in Central America, Sub-Saharan Africa, and Indochina (and will soon be heading to South America), and here's the thing: people in those nations generally like Americans. A lot. More than others, in many instances. They point out all the good America/Americans have done. When I criticize my nation, they talk to me about all the good things. They don't blame all the world's ills on us and they appreciate the good that we do/have done. But do keep at it. I realize a lot of people just can't cope without blaming someone else for everything. It's an easy, good-feeling 'fix,' and makes one feel smug/superior/smart to 'know' the 'cause' of everything. Well I am talking about those places... And I've been in almost all of them,and not on from the friendly confines of a resort.... I can tell you this,most of those places are being "aided" much more from the Chinese than the US or Europe. Understand that...The so called 3rd World is more content to take the aid of the cryptoFascist Chinese than the aid of representative democracy Europe or the United States... That's a sobering bit of reality for those of us who want to see democracy spread.The fact o the mattter is that the US State Department has done a positively horrendous job of spreading democracy and freedom principally because it has never been interested in doing it in the first place! And seeing as China is the largest donater of aid and technology to places like South America and Africa,your wish is going to come to fruition soon.I don't say that with alot of glee as I would rather deal with Washington than Bejing,but you folks have made your foreign policy bed and you are now going to have to lay in it.... And now Egypt... Edited January 31, 2011 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) No....this is the first post that positively indentifies Canadian complicity with the status quo AND the step(s) needed to make the rhetoric congruent with actions. Canadians who feel as you do should walk the talk, but they don't. Well maybe in this thread it's the first time I've suggested it, but I've suggested it over the years more than a few times, even today in this thread on Pakistan. But you don't....hell, your Head of State is still the Queen. I know, it sucks to be us. Edited January 31, 2011 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Well maybe in this thread it's the first but I've suggested it, but I've suggested it over the years more than a few times, even today in this thread on Pakistan. OK...congratulations....now what is to be done? How will these disenchanted Canadians reconcile their disgust for American policies with their own inconsistent economic and political actions? I know, it sucks to be us. Yes, you will do it the same way that disenchanted Americans do it....eat your own guts out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 OK...congratulations....now what is to be done? How will these disenchanted Canadians reconcile their disgust for American policies with their own inconsistent economic and political actions? Maybe when the dissonance gets louder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Maybe when the dissonance gets louder. ...more likely when the economics gets quieter. That's the cynical answer that will always win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Why do you guys even talk to it? I don't... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Watching CNN right now... Interviews on the streets of Cairo... I just watch a bunch of young people say that "We don't want Mubarak...He is supported by the US,UK,France,Germany,etc.....And he supports Israel!! We hate them! And those countries don't want us to be free because they know if we are free we will destroy Israel!!!" Good thing propping up Fascist dictators never radicalizes people.... Anyone else think that if there was a real representative democracy in Egypt,we would probably see an Islamic theocracy come to fruition? I realize this is a small sampling,however,thse were educated young people who were fluent in English.NOT stupid people who had not thought things through... Self-determination. Do you support the concept wholly or in part? ‘WE ARE NOT AFRAID' CAIRO—A pitched battle for the headquarters of Egypt's reviled police state has ended with the ministry of the interior's security officers fleeing the building with all guns blazing.The dramatic confrontation — hailed by protesters as a major victory — demonstrates the resolve of Egyptians demanding the ouster of President Hosni Mubarak. After decades of autocratic rule, the people have lost their fear. So if they throw out the autocratic rule and decide to go another route - even if they have free and democratic elections and vote for an Islamist government, do we not applaud them for achieving a measure of self-determination because that is what we want for all oppressed people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbg Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 My run here is nearly complete, if only because there is not much more to cover....we have done it all.Then go, for the sake of G-d. Just go. But who is "we"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Then go, for the sake of G-d. Just go. But who is "we"? I will go on my timeline, not yours. We are forum members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 "So if they throw out the autocratic rule and decide to go another route - even if they have free and democratic elections and vote for an Islamist government, do we not applaud them for achieving a measure of self-determination because that is what we want for all oppressed people?" Yes. I am somewhat surprised that American leadership is so tepid in it's response to this event. Perhaps the fact that the model endorsed by the hegemon to the south included anything but a free and democratic state. Rather what was offered was a large security force and army funded and equipped through American largesse and used to suppress, kill, maim and intimidate anyone resisting the dictatorship in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Self-determination. Do you support the concept wholly or in part? ‘WE ARE NOT AFRAID' So if they throw out the autocratic rule and decide to go another route - even if they have free and democratic elections and vote for an Islamist government, do we not applaud them for achieving a measure of self-determination because that is what we want for all oppressed people? Sure... They have a right to self determination... If they go the Islamofascist route,like the folks in Gaza did by choosing Hamas in a free election,then they'll freely have chosen what happens next... Interestingly,I watched how a radical Islamofascist just returned to Tunisia last night... I have no doubt that there will be very little democracy in that region any time in the future.I also think El Baradei is being "parachuted in" by the influential powers in the region as a "democratic white night".I have no doubtr that he's really there to be a kindler ,gentler face on the Fascism that has been perpetuated by Mr.Mubarak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinko Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 For six days now, the Arab world's most populous nation has been shaken by thousands of demonstrators calling for an end to the dictatorial regime of Hosni Mubarak. The marches, the shouting, the anger have been generated largely by young men. So far the Army has stayed out of the fray and has left the attacks on demonstrators to the much-feared security police. President Mubarak , who has ruled the country with an iron will since 1981, has vowed to hold onto power. What happens in Egypt will have a profound effect in the region and throughout the Arab world. In our First Hour, we look at unrest in Egypt and explore the possibility that a revolution in that country could spread to other Arab dictatorships. Is it true reform and democracy or is it all about jobs and economics? Read more about hour one here http://www.cbc.ca/thesundayedition/shows/2011/01/30/egypt-protests---cellphone-radiation---ken-nordine/#hour1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Then go, for the sake of G-d. Just go. But who is "we"? I actually broke my own rules and read the post you quoted.. It's very insightful into the slef absorption of the individual in question... The guy/gal revels in being an asshole,nothing more or less..I really don't think it would matter if he were from Canada,the US,Burma etc...An A-Hole is an A-Hole is an A-Hole... As I said before,he/she brings absolutely nothing to the table and his attempts to "challenge " people is nothing more than convenient cover for his boorish behaviour.Dealing with that behaviour,I suppose,is a challenge one chooses to take up. I choose not to... I guess that makes me a "rube"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Why is it so hard to say it, though? I watched a small clip of an interview with David Cameron done by Fareed Zakaria and he had no qualms in saying that Mubarak had been a great ally in the region. I agree with you. There is nothing more important than telling and facing the truth. If the political correctness has the power to stop everyone acting like a real man but an ET, it will be totally political incorrect at all. Anyway, being an earthling isn't a shame and an earthing sometime is realistic. As for BC2004, honestly I like to read his posts, I mean, most of them . I think many people may disagree with his way, but only a few may deny, in most cases, he was just telling the painful truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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