Your predictions on how we will deal with the coming health care crisi

[dre]

Tracking these things will answer many questions.... costs of certain things go down over time... if we didn't increase services, but only offered the same thing at the improved costs that efficiency and productivity give us then costs would go down.

We don't know what we can ask for because we don't know what we have. If we whine and complain a lot, I don't hear that. I just hear private vs public fighting.

That is a good start - next go to cihi.ca and tell me if you find anything good.

I just hear private vs public fighting.

No... Iv outlined a plan that has a 100% chance of success, and has already worked in every single industry that its ever tried in. Furthermore its completely voluntary and every single person that volunteered would not only have a wad of cash in their pocket for doing so, but the Canadian health payer would save the same ammount. For many procedures theres a 90% saving available or even more.

Youre right though that public vs private is a complete and utter red herring and that conversation will get us exactly nowhere.

Picture if Canada socialized Television Sets, and it became the right of every Canadian to have a government supplied widescreen TV. Now picture the National TV Act made it so those TV's had to be procured and produced in Canada. The government would pay ten times more for each TV than they would pay if they purchased them on the global market, and the program would bankrupt us. Thats EXACTLY whats happening with healthcare. We nationalize it, then make a rule saying that only the most expensive healthcare workers on the entire planet are allowed to participate in the delivery of it.... Then we site around going DUUUUUUUUUUH.... wonder why it costs so much.

Assinine.

[dre]

" Right now most Canadian medical tourists are either going for dental work, or theyre affluent people trying to get around waiting lists."

These medical tourists you refer to aren't very bright if they are going to India for dental work. While it is the case dental work isn't covered for most Canadians I have my dental work done through my Blue Cross insurance and it is always done expeditiously.

You have dental insurance but most Canadians dont.

I had a friend of mine become a dental tourist to an accredited clinic in Mexico last year. He got 5000 dollars woth of Dental work for $700 dollars and then used part of the difference to finance an extended vacation at an all inclucive resort. He got his dental work done, and had a two week vacation, and paid for airfare, and still saved almost 2000 bux.

Over a million people flee price-gouging in the west every year to take advantage of similar deals.

Heres the story of one women who had to choose between becoming a medical tourist or enduring years of dehabilitating pain at the hands of domestic providers. In this case the Government of Canada paid for it, but only because the procedure was not available here. The Canadian health payer should re-imburse ALL patients who want to pursue this avenue, and split the savings with them. Then not only would canadian providers be forced to compete, but the burden on the system would be drastically reduced.

INDEPTH: HEALTH CARE

Medical tourism: Need surgery, will travel

CBC News Online | June 18, 2004

Part 1 | Part 2

A Canadian patient

Reporter: Cameron MacIntosh

Across Canada, thousands are on waiting lists for surgeries. In some cases those waits can last for years.

Aruna Thurairajan

A year ago, Aruna Thurairajan of Calgary was becoming resigned to the idea of living in pain. At the age of 50, a spinal condition was making tasks like reaching over her head impossible.

"I had almost 20 to 40 painkillers a day," she says.

Her doctors in Alberta said there would be a three-year wait for corrective surgery.

"I went over to India... and I had the surgery, " Thurairajan says.

Six weeks later not only could she lift her arm, she could also endorse this cheque from the province of Alberta, reimbursing her for almost the entire cost of the surgery despite the fact it was done in a foreign private hospital.

"I had a legitimate claim, I processed it just the way they wanted, I didn't make any unreasonable demands," she says,

An out of country health services claim is little known, little used. Alberta only had 45 cases last year. It's an option for patients who simply can't get into a hospital quick enough.

"The basic criteria are [that] it be an insured medically necessary service unavailable in Alberta or elsewhere in Canada," says Howard May of Alberta Health. "After that we look at each case on a case-to-case basis."

It's not just Alberta; each province has a similar process. The catch is patients often pay up front.

Edited January 21, 2011 by dre

[Michael Hardner]

1. Monitor the queue status in the ways I have illustrated and benchmark it.

What queue status? What is the benchmark and how was it arrived at?

These are good questions. Direct them to your provincial ministry of health.

[Michael Hardner]

"Any set of services should generally decrease in cost over time, as productivity increases and innovation work their magic."

Do you have some examples to prove your point? If so provide them.

If you bought an Atari home video machine when they came out, it would have cost roughly an average week's pay. The Kinect, I believe, is $150.

Economics mostly makes things easier and cheaper over time. There are exceptions, for example, if you're dealing with non-renewable resources. But the economy will always seek out better/cheaper ways to do things, even in a healthcare monopoly.

It does work better, though, if people are paying more attention to the costs.

[Michael Hardner]

No... Iv outlined a plan that has a 100% chance of success, and has already worked in every single industry that its ever tried in. Furthermore its completely voluntary and every single person that volunteered would not only have a wad of cash in their pocket for doing so, but the Canadian health payer would save the same ammount. For many procedures theres a 90% saving available or even more.

Yes, but ... nobody is really talking about your plan. I'll give you points for thinking outside the box, though. You and I are among the few that do.

[pinko]

ame='pinko' date='21 January 2011 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1295642496' post='618128']

These are good questions. Direct them to your provincial ministry of health.

I may do that if I feel there is a need to do so.

[pinko]

If you bought an Atari home video machine when they came out, it would have cost roughly an average week's pay. The Kinect, I believe, is $150.

Economics mostly makes things easier and cheaper over time. There are exceptions, for example, if you're dealing with non-renewable resources. But the economy will always seek out better/cheaper ways to do things, even in a healthcare monopoly.

It does work better, though, if people are paying more attention to the costs.

Here is a set of circumstances with which I have some knowledge. My son and his two partners run a fertility clinic. As you may know fertilty treatments, at least in British Columbia, are for the most part, out of the scope of medicare. Upon startup of the business a sigificant expenditure on equipment was required. Using this as an exmaple I would like you to illustrate the point you are attempting to make with your Atari example.

My son also works within the medicare system ultilzing another of his specialities and as such you might also attempt to address this point as it is within the scope of medicare.

[Michael Hardner]

I may do that if I feel there is a need to do so.

If you feel there's a need to be informed ?

[Michael Hardner]

Here is a set of circumstances with which I have some knowledge. My son and his two partners run a fertility clinic. As you may know fertilty treatments, at least in British Columbia, are for the most part, out of the scope of medicare. Upon startup of the business a sigificant expenditure on equipment was required. Using this as an exmaple I would like you to illustrate the point you are attempting to make with your Atari example.

Easy. This equipment is likely cutting edge... which will come down in cost over time.

My son also works within the medicare system ultilzing another of his specialities and as such you might also attempt to address this point as it is within the scope of medicare.

It's not really the same thing. Specialists can become cheaper over time as well, though. The labour market for medical workers is highly controlled, so it's not a free market. Dre has suggested ways that services could be made cheaper by opening up the market.

[pinko]

Easy. This equipment is likely cutting edge... which will come down in cost over time.

It's not really the same thing. Specialists can become cheaper over time as well, though. The labour market for medical workers is highly controlled, so it's not a free market. Dre has suggested ways that services could be made cheaper by opening up the market.

If by this you mean there is an accreditation process and the number of openings in medical school is determined by public funding then you may have a point.

With respect to the equipment my point is that there is a capital cost associated with starting a business. I am not in a position to dispute your contention that the cost of such equipment will come down. That doesn't mean that the cost of such equipment will, in fact, come down.

To the best of my knowledge the clientale for the clinic is not confined to those from British Columbia.

I believe there is competition between the various clinics so to that extent, if I am correct, there is a

competitive element.

[eyeball]

Thats EXACTLY whats happening with healthcare. We nationalize it, then make a rule saying that only the most expensive healthcare workers on the entire planet are allowed to participate in the delivery of it.... Then we site around going DUUUUUUUUUUH.... wonder why it costs so much.

Assinine.

It's a fact. My prediction is that we'll continue to deal with health care at the political level very very stupidly, like most things.

In the meantime I have to say my own experience with health care, through thick and thin, has been pretty positive. I've had the same family doctors for over 30 years and the one who delivered my kids has consulted my daughter about the grand-kid I'm expecting. My doctor finally decided it was time to look more deeply into my heart murmur and we found a defective valve that will need replacing one day and I have to say I feel pretty damned confident things are going to work out just fine. The system seems to be working and my brother who's battling cancer is reporting the same thing.

The one area of health care I take serious issue with is mental health care, there's nowhere near the amount of resources available for the needs that exist. Take it from me, if you have a loved one stricken with a serious mental illness you need to be there every step of the way to make the system work for them. If they are really ill they will probably be unable to make it work for them on their own.

Herein lies the real horror of mental illness, most people often are on their own due to a number of other issues with stigma being near if not at the top of the list. There is absolutely no doubt the stigma and poor public attitude associated with mental disease is the main factor contributing to the lack of resources available for it. That said the people I encountered in the mental health sector were, like most I've encountered elsewhere in the health system, good albeit overworked people. We discovered very early that they'll definitely take greater effort to care for a mentally ill person if and when that person's family gets involved and stays involved throughout their treatment and recovery. I guess they must feel a patient with this sort of family backing stands a better chance so they put in the extra effort. The mental health system will work but I'd say your chances are greatly reduced without an advocate to get in its face and stay on its back.

I've also dealt with both the US and Canadian systems when it comes to mental illness and all I can say is without public health and more importantly public insurance, mentally ill people from the working class on down are basically doomed.

[pinko]

"I've also dealt with both the US and Canadian systems when it comes to mental illness and all I can say is without public health and more importantly public insurance, mentally ill people from the working class on down are basically doomed."

I think your most recent post is a fair description of the current state of affairs. As for the mental heathcare system I couldn't agree with you more.

[dre]

It's a fact. My prediction is that we'll continue to deal with health care at the political level very very stupidly, like most things.

In the meantime I have to say my own experience with health care, through thick and thin, has been pretty positive. I've had the same family doctors for over 30 years and the one who delivered my kids has consulted my daughter about the grand-kid I'm expecting. My doctor finally decided it was time to look more deeply into my heart murmur and we found a defective valve that will need replacing one day and I have to say I feel pretty damned confident things are going to work out just fine. The system seems to be working and my brother who's battling cancer is reporting the same thing.

The one area of health care I take serious issue with is mental health care, there's nowhere near the amount of resources available for the needs that exist. Take it from me, if you have a loved one stricken with a serious mental illness you need to be there every step of the way to make the system work for them. If they are really ill they will probably be unable to make it work for them on their own.

Herein lies the real horror of mental illness, most people often are on their own due to a number of other issues with stigma being near if not at the top of the list. There is absolutely no doubt the stigma and poor public attitude associated with mental disease is the main factor contributing to the lack of resources available for it. That said the people I encountered in the mental health sector were, like most I've encountered elsewhere in the health system, good albeit overworked people. We discovered very early that they'll definitely take greater effort to care for a mentally ill person if and when that person's family gets involved and stays involved throughout their treatment and recovery. I guess they must feel a patient with this sort of family backing stands a better chance so they put in the extra effort. The mental health system will work but I'd say your chances are greatly reduced without an advocate to get in its face and stay on its back.

I've also dealt with both the US and Canadian systems when it comes to mental illness and all I can say is without public health and more importantly public insurance, mentally ill people from the working class on down are basically doomed.

I've also dealt with both the US and Canadian systems when it comes to mental illness and all I can say is without public health and more importantly public insurance, mentally ill people from the working class on down are basically doomed.

Getting rid of public insurance would be the worst move this country ever made. We have a fundamentally strong system that is underperforming right now for two reasons... the feds have slowly and steadily defunded it... and an aging population has put a lot of extra stress on it.

The biggest threat to healthcare for Canadians is that privatizers will successfully use the temporary stress put on the system as foothold for private healthcare. This would be literally insane because we know healthcare costs are increasing in the whole western world, regardless of whether providers are public or private, but Canadians arent the sharpest tools in the shed and they just might be dumb enough to be tricked into it.

We need to manage the demand spike by offloading some of our care onto other markets, and the availabilty of markets with much much lower prices gives us the perfect opportunity to do it.

[eyeball]

Getting rid of public insurance would be the worst move this country ever made. We have a fundamentally strong system that is underperforming right now for two reasons... the feds have slowly and steadily defunded it... and an aging population has put a lot of extra stress on it.

The biggest threat to healthcare for Canadians is that privatizers will successfully use the temporary stress put on the system as foothold for private healthcare. This would be literally insane because we know healthcare costs are increasing in the whole western world, regardless of whether providers are public or private, but Canadians arent the sharpest tools in the shed and they just might be dumb enough to be tricked into it.

We need to manage the demand spike by offloading some of our care onto other markets, and the availabilty of markets with much much lower prices gives us the perfect opportunity to do it.

Perhaps. I'm still nervous about these other markets robbing the people who live in them of their health care opportunities, the ethics of doing this just don't sit well with me. Besides which, the mental health component of our system needs every available dime that can be spared, I couldn't in good conscience simply cut cheques to people for simply participating in your scheme when there is still so much unmet need out there.

Maybe if you diverted the savings towards mental health here and building public health care infrastructure in the developing world you want to partner with I could buy into it. But I just don't see it happening. Can you imagine the hoots of derision from the usual suspects at the prospect of poisoning the world with the notion of universal health-care? I suspect most of these would also take a dim view towards treating the mentally ill, they're probably more apt to want to spend billions locking them up in prisons instead.

[Esq]

Obamacare.

[Esq]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

[Moonlight Graham]

The answer is "SOMETHING ELSE".

The key to reducing healthcare costs is not two-tier care in Canada or a private system. Health costs are going up EVERYWHERE in the west regardless of what kind of system is used so the PRIVATE VS PUBLIC argument is a completely and total red herring.

The real silver bullet is to force Canadian health providers to compete with providers in places like India, Thailand, NewZealand, etc.

This could be done with a very simple change to the Canada healthact that will allow people to volunarily organize procedures done in JCI accredited facilities around the world, and pocket 1/2 of what they save the government.

Lets take open heart surgery as an example. Providers in Canada will typically bill out over 100 thousand dollars for these types of operations. But a JCI accredited hospital in India will do the same operation for about 10 thousand. Thats a saving of 90 thousand dollars. So Health Canada pays the 10 thousand for the procedure, and cuts the patient a check for 45 000. The patient will use that to organize their travel and accomodations to india (or wherever) and they get to pocket the rest to send their kids to college for a year, buy a new car, or whatever they want.

The government just saved 45 thousand dollars on the procedure, and demand on our system was reduced.

Since the foreign facilities is JCI accredited they know the facility is modern and offers comparable patient outcomes, and partipation in this "medical tourism" program was completely voluntary, nobody can complain.

People are already doing this... the JCI is getting stronger and stronger, and millions of people from the west are fleeing to foreign markets to escape price-gouging. Theres no reason for Health Canada to not cash in on those savings as well.

Theres consumer confidence issues, and a lot of Canadians that havent done any research on patient outcomes in various host countries picture getting operated on in a grass hut by a guy with a bone through his nose. But as more and more people are lured into this program that will change, and demand for Canadian based health services will be reduced which is the ONLY WAY TO BRING DOWN PRICES... PERIOD.

This is the ONLY approach that will work. If demand on Canadian services INCREASES (which is is, and will), then PRICES WILL GO UP. It doesnt matter if the providers are public or private, or what you write into the Canada Health act. Its simple economics.

Interesting concept, but frankly i don't want to have surgery in a 3rd world country by 3rd world doctors. Also, how many people want to travel that far for health care? Thirdly, many people who are ill aren't supposed go on airplanes, especially for 20 hours each way.

There must be a better, home-spun solution.

[dre]

Interesting concept, but frankly i don't want to have surgery in a 3rd world country by 3rd world doctors. Also, how many people want to travel that far for health care? Thirdly, many people who are ill aren't supposed go on airplanes, especially for 20 hours each way.

There must be a better, home-spun solution.

Interesting concept, but frankly i don't want to have surgery in a 3rd world country by 3rd world doctors.

But if you did some research on patient outcomes in some of those countries you wouldnt feel that way any more. India for example has very good doctors, state of the art equipment, etc. Studies have shown that patient outcomes are similar to ours.

Its a different world these days man... we are light years ahead of everybody else anymore, in fact we are starting to fall behind.

Also, how many people want to travel that far for health care?

LOTS of people and the industry is rapidly growing. Millions of westerners flee pricegouging at home every year. Many of them save enough on a SINGLE PROCEDURE to put a kid through university for a year or buy a brand new car.

Thirdly, many people who are ill aren't supposed go on airplanes, especially for 20 hours each way.

Absolutely and great point. Some patients arent even stable enough to travel! Front line and emergency care will have to stay over here, but theres LOTS of procedures that can be offshored.

All we need is for the Canadian Government to make that an option, and to share the savings with the patient. Lots of patients actually like the option because they have a vacation as well. For the cost of a major procedure in North AMerica the patient can travel abroad, get the same procedure, and then follow it up with a month of relaxation and recovery in an all-inclusive resort, and still save enough to buy a brand new car, or in some cases two or three of them.

Once again, heres a comparison of the cost differences for a few procedures.

The cost of surgery in India, Thailand or South Africa can be one-tenth of what it is in the United States or Western Europe, and sometimes even less. A heart-valve replacement that would cost $200,000 or more in the US, for example, goes for $10,000 in India--and that includes round-trip airfare and a brief vacation package. Similarly, a metal-free dental bridge worth $5,500 in the US costs $500 in India, a knee replacement in Thailand with six days of physical therapy costs about one-fifth of what it would in the States, and Lasik eye surgery worth $3,700 in the US is available in many other countries for only $730. Cosmetic surgery savings are even greater: A full facelift that would cost $20,000 in the US runs about $1,250 in South Africa

Im willing to bet, that since the savings available or so huge, once people can get the government to pay for the operation, and reward patients with half of what was saved, the number of Canadians travelling abroad will explode. This will reduce stress on our system, and lower prices at home.

And its COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY. Nobody that doesnt want to go has to go. They have their heart valve installed here in Canada if they want... or they can go to India, have it done there, and pocket the 40 thousand dollar government rebate.

Edited January 22, 2011 by dre

[dre]

There must be a better, home-spun solution.

Nope, there just isnt one. At the end of the day Canada is just a really expensive place to produce products and services. Thats the root of the problem, regardless of whether the payer is public or private. Were really bright and talented people... and we CAN provide outstanding medical care. But we could also build the worlds best DVD Players, and Television sets as well. The problem is those DVD players would cost 1000 dollars, so we just dont make them here any more.

The only reason your average consumer can afford a DVD Player and a FlatScreen TV is because the production of those things has been moved off shore. And the same goes for medical services. If you want a "home spun" solution thats fine, but the reality is the cost of that solution will increase from between 5 to 10% per year and theres not a damn thing you can do about it.

The reason for this is something that I call the "production sweet spot". The production sweetspot is the period of extremely low production costs in nations that are rapidly developing. Virtually every cost associated with production is MUCH lower in countries that are still in that sweet spot. All the resources cost less.

Countries like the US and Canada are way past that sweet spot, and production here is extremely expensive. I just dont see any way to get around this. We cant provide affordable medical procedures for the exact same reason we can provide affordable DVD players, or affordable shoes and textiles.

Protectionism is THE reason why a healthcare crisis is looming in Canada and the US. It isnt "one of the reasons", it isnt "a reason", its THE REASON. If something isnt done about it, then we are either going to have to pay a LOT more money for insurance (be it private or public) or accept a lot less services.

It really is as simple as that.

Edited January 22, 2011 by dre

[Pliny]

Protectionism is THE reason why a healthcare crisis is looming in Canada and the US. It isnt "one of the reasons", it isnt "a reason", its THE REASON. If something isnt done about it, then we are either going to have to pay a LOT more money for insurance (be it private or public) or accept a lot less services.

It really is as simple as that.

Do you have the same advice for corporations that go offshore? Certain people don't like that.

You had the right idea that the demand must be reduced and perhaps offshoring is a workable solution to high costs. I can't see government sharing the savings though.

The biggest difference between our health care and the US healthcare system is that the US health care system is flexible enough to be innovative. Ours will rot before it changes.

Another of our problems is a single payer system and no private option to buy. The US has an oligarchic payer system, which is a problem.

All forms of insurance raise costs because the costs are brokered by the insurance companies. The deductible should be the real cost. I can hear the laughter now! Actually, the single payer sytsem is worse in offering insurance. It basically must reach what is considered the "reasonable" demands of the service providers to determine costs and there is no competitive pricing except to look at what it costs Americans in the private sector. But that isn't a valid measure of cost either since a small number of insurance companies broker the costs. If a doctor doesn't like his pay he can charge privately. Most would choose to be paid by insurance companies because they are not businessmen or traders and don't wish to be bothered bartering prices with patients or making collections. And what about the poor - doctors don't put themselves through medical school to work for nothing but docotrs do tend to be charitable and will do some charitable work. Some would go broke if they had to charge the patient for services.

I would say that option two is the plan until the system collpases. There is no ohter way to effect change let alone beneficial change. The only thing that can be done is pile more money into it.

Wasted money like for the flu vaccine (I can hear the laughter now but it hasn't decreased the yearly annual death rate from the flu an iota) is wasted money for other procedures. Wasted money for ill advice is costly. Heart disease today is the number one killer in north America. Partial blame for that despite the medical establishments efforts to bring it down is in the poor dietary advice of the sixties and seventies to use margarine from entirely hydrogenated oils and trans fats. They are more or less banned today. It may be we have to learn these things but it is the reaosn I am against any food police dictating what can or cannot be considered food.

I am also wary of any drug that has the side effect, death may occur, breathing may stop, or homicidal and/or suicidal ideation and or failure of a vital organ may occur, or reacts negatively when mixed with some other drug, or is necessary to be taken with four or five other drugs to reduce side effects.

If people stopped getting sick would doctors have to find something else to do or maybe they would start to invent reasons for you to visit them?

In any case, all problems with the Canadian healthcare system will only be percieved as being lack of resources and will only be solved with more "resources".

[wyly]

If you bought an Atari home video machine when they came out, it would have cost roughly an average week's pay. The Kinect, I believe, is $150.

Economics mostly makes things easier and cheaper over time. There are exceptions, for example, if you're dealing with non-renewable resources. But the economy will always seek out better/cheaper ways to do things, even in a healthcare monopoly.

It does work better, though, if people are paying more attention to the costs.

atari? your comparing apples and oranges...video technology was outsourced to china and parts made for pennies per hour by chinese labour, this idea isn't transferable to our medical system... explain how our MD's and medical research staff are going to live in N America on the wages paid in developing countries?...this is something dre overlooks in his quest to drive down wages paid to medical staff here... Edited January 22, 2011 by wyly

[wyly]

If by this you mean there is an accreditation process and the number of openings in medical school is determined by public funding then you may have a point.

With respect to the equipment my point is that there is a capital cost associated with starting a business. I am not in a position to dispute your contention that the cost of such equipment will come down. That doesn't mean that the cost of such equipment will, in fact, come down.

To the best of my knowledge the clientale for the clinic is not confined to those from British Columbia.

I believe there is competition between the various clinics so to that extent, if I am correct, there is a

competitive element.

also this medical equipment it's not sold in the numbers(tens of millions) required to reduce cost like a video game console...

[wyly]

But if you did some research on patient outcomes in some of those countries you wouldnt feel that way any more. India for example has very good doctors, state of the art equipment, etc. Studies have shown that patient outcomes are similar to ours.

Its a different world these days man... we are light years ahead of everybody else anymore, in fact we are starting to fall behind.

dre go talk to a MD to understand how our certification system works...those Indian MD's driving taxi's in canada, why do you suppose that is?...they're not qualified to practice in canada, they've failed the process that every canadian med student must pass to work here... those cab driving md's are just a fraction of equally unqualified md's that are still practicing their trade in India....standard of care you receive in other countries cannot be guaranteed...

LOTS of people and the industry is rapidly growing. Millions of westerners flee pricegouging at home every year. Many of them save enough on a SINGLE PROCEDURE to put a kid through university for a year or buy a brand new car.

again with the millions dre...show us those millions dre...some 600,000 per year from the USA fleeing expensive private care, or cosmetic surgery which isn't covered by insurance...canadians aren't going anywhere because we have the best of quality...

[dre]

dre go talk to a MD to understand how our certification system works...those Indian MD's driving taxi's in canada, why do you suppose that is?...they're not qualified to practice in canada, they've failed the process that every canadian med student must pass to work here... those cab driving md's are just a fraction of equally unqualified md's that are still practicing their trade in India....standard of care you receive in other countries cannot be guaranteed...

again with the millions dre...show us those millions dre...some 600,000 per year from the USA fleeing expensive private care, or cosmetic surgery which isn't covered by insurance...canadians aren't going anywhere because we have the best of quality...

dre go talk to a MD to understand how our certification system works...those Indian MD's driving taxi's in canada, why do you suppose that is?...they're not qualified to practice in canada, they've failed the process that every canadian med student must pass to work here... those cab driving md's are just a fraction of equally unqualified md's that are still practicing their trade in India....standard of care you receive in other countries cannot be guaranteed...

India....standard of care you receive in other countries cannot be guaranteed...

Patient outcomes cant be guaranteed in ANY system, but what you can do is study the doctors and the hospitals and accredit the ones that provide comparable patient outcomes to ours. Thats why groups like the JCI are important.

Youre a perfect example of that western attitude that nobody can do anything right besides us.

canadians aren't going anywhere because we have the best of quality

No they arent going anywhere because the Canadian government normally wont cover operations outside of Canada. Implement my plan, and a LOT of Canadians will use it because of the cash back incentive. And if they dont want to? If theyre stuck in the 70's like you, and think medical care done in other countries is performed in grass huts by a guy with a bone through his nose, then they dont have to go.

[pinko]

Patient outcomes cant be guaranteed in ANY system, but what you can do is study the doctors and the hospitals and accredit the ones that provide comparable patient outcomes to ours. Thats why groups like the JCI are important.

Youre a perfect example of that western attitude that nobody can do anything right besides us.

No they arent going anywhere because the Canadian government normally wont cover operations outside of Canada. Implement my plan, and a LOT of Canadians will use it because of the cash back incentive. And if they dont want to? If theyre stuck in the 70's like you, and think medical care done in other countries is performed in grass huts by a guy with a bone through his nose, then they dont have to go.

If you have so much confidence in what you are trying to promote I would like to suggest that you put your own money (not to be confused with taxpayer money) into the venture you have been describing. The solutions to our healthcare problems must lie within the borders of Canada and not in some pie in the sky scheme dreamed up by some so called visionary. I don't want my taxes paying for someone's vacation to India or anywhere else. The bottom line is care is available here in Canada and there is absolutely no need to supplement it with a trip abroad.