Canada US Border: Perimeter Security

[August1991]

This really, really bugs me. (Warning: Rant ahead.)

The Harper government is bracing for a backlash over a border security agreement it is negotiating with the United States, anticipating it will spark worries about eroding sovereignty and privacy rights, a document obtained by The Globe and Mail shows.

...

“Greater information sharing is part of the initiative. The safeguarding of privacy and sovereignty will be of concern for Canadians,” the document says.

The strategy predicts that Canadians may fail to see the need for a perimeter security deal to help safeguard cross-border trade through efforts such as a joint cargo screening initiative.

“The Canadian public may underestimate the security threat to Canada,” the communication plan says.

G&M

My rant? I am really, really tired of politicians/bureaucrats making it easier for themselves to do what they want while making it harder for the rest of us to do what we want.

From what I can tell, this "perimeter security agreement" will make it easier for American and Canadian government officials to exchange information, do their job - but it will make it harder for ordinary Canadians and Americans to meet and deal with one another. There will be more checks of goods crossing the border, more delays and checks when people cross the border, more complications in cross-border communication.

As Reagan said, we have a country with a government and not the other way around.

----

Let me give two small examples of what I mean, in the context of North American security. IMV, once a foreigner has received a Canadian or American visitor visa (entry permit), the other country should automatically recognize the visa. IOW, a foreigner with a US visa should be free to travel to Canada and vice-versa.

Here's another example: Once a foreign good is admitted to one country, it should pass freely to the other country subject only to local taxes.

These two changes would make the lives of ordinary people on both sides of the border better, and facilitate contact. It would make a credible, secure perimeter.

But that's not what the bureaucrats have in mind.

This talk of "perimeter" among Ottawa/Washington bureaucrats/politicians is different. They want to make their own lives easier. They are not really concerned with security for the rest of us, or even how we live our lives.

Edited December 11, 2010 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

...From what I can tell, this "perimeter security agreement" will make it easier for American and Canadian government officials to exchange information, do their job - but it will make it harder for ordinary Canadians and Americans to meet and deal with one another....

OK...I need a bit of calibration here. From this and several other threads one would get the idea that vast numbers of Canadians get the itch to cross the US border, many times per year. Now my neighbours and I live just a few hours drive from International Falls, but we don't get ants in our pants to make a run for the border.

So what is it that causes this migratory behaviour from the north in such numbers? Is it weather? Cheaper gas and cigarettes? American relatives? What?

[eyeball]

This talk of "perimeter" exists only in the minds of Ottawa/Washington bureaucrats/politicians. They want to make their own lives easier. They are not really concerned with security for the rest of us, or even how we live our lives.

No they certainly don't.

The Harper government is bracing for a backlash over a border security agreement it is negotiating with the United States, anticipating it will spark worries about eroding sovereignty and privacy rights, a document obtained by The Globe and Mail shows.

What's really sad is that they're not bracing for a backlash of concern that it was these very same sorts of bureaucrats/politicians who caused all this bloody insecurity we're faced with in the first place with their spooks and secret agents and wheeling and dealing with dictators.

We live in a world where the very same bureaucrats/politicians would have us believe Julian Assange is a terrorist who should be assassinated. I think we should be naming high-schools after him myself.

It's coming down to governments versus people and you're either with us or you're with them. This shouldn't be an ideological or right wing vs left wing struggle but fat chance of that I guess.

Edited December 11, 2010 by eyeball

[August1991]

So what is it that causes this migratory behaviour from the north in such numbers? Is it weather? Cheaper gas and cigarettes? American relatives? What?

As a fire raged out of control on Sunday at a landmark restaurant in northern New York State, two crews of Quebec firefighters rushing to assist their American friends were stopped for lengthy inspections at the U.S.-Canada border — prompting disbelief among local officials and calls by a U.S. senator to review the security protocols at international checkpoints.

CanWest

This is one incident but in fact anyone with any knowledge of Canada knows that we all have dealings with Americans, as individuals. When Trudeau said that you are the elephant in the bed, it was an apt metaphor. Each of us are individuals sleeping in a bed with an elephant - the majority around us.

Knowing Trudeau and his ideas, that is the metaphor he meant.

---

BC, the point of my OP is different. I could care less what Americans think of Canada or Chile, or what Canadians think of Georgia or Argentina - assuming that Canadians or Americans know where Chile, Georgia or Argentina is.

I simply think that ordinary people should be able to deal with one another.

[Bonam]

OK...I need a bit of calibration here. From this and several other threads one would get the idea that vast numbers of Canadians get the itch to cross the US border, many times per year. Now my neighbours and I live just a few hours drive from International Falls, but we don't get ants in our pants to make a run for the border.

So what is it that causes this migratory behaviour from the north in such numbers? Is it weather? Cheaper gas and cigarettes? American relatives? What?

There are many reasons. American friends/relatives are certainly one. I live in Seattle now, for example, but most of my friends and family are back in Vancouver. Also, prices in the US are vastly cheaper not just for gas and cigarettes but almost all goods and services. For example, a 50'' plasma TV that my parents wanted cost $899 in the US and $1499 in Canada (at a time when the Canadian dollar was almost at parity, so it's not because of exchange rates), so I bought it for them down here and brought it up. Cars are generally 20-30% cheaper in the US. All types of computers, electronics, appliances, books, clothing, furniture, luxury goods, are generally cheaper in the US as well. So definitely for Canadians that live close enough to an American city on the other side of the border, making the drive makes sense almost any time they want to make a large purchase.

[bush_cheney2004]

.... So definitely for Canadians that live close enough to an American city on the other side of the border, making the drive makes sense almost any time they want to make a large purchase.

OK...that makes sense at a practical level without any political spin. And so it would follow that more Canadians would get very excited about tougher border security, longer waits, refused entry, etc.

[Bonam]

OK...that makes sense at a practical level without any political spin. And so it would follow that more Canadians would get very excited about tougher border security, longer waits, refused entry, etc.

Yes longer waits and refused entry would annoy many Canadians. From what I understand, though, the new security deal is supposed to ease cross-border traffic, not slow it. I haven't read the details, however.

[Topaz]

Both US and Canadians citizens should watch this deal very carefully. These governments tried to bring in the SPP and found a brick wall from citzens on both sides of the border. The super highways to link NA is processing slowly, the NEW Windsor-Detroit bridge is part of it and that is why Baird said Canada will pay for it if Michigan couldn't and would take tolls as repayment. The time the Tories have been in power we have heard several times the word "harmonize with the US". They use it on environment, military, changing rules to line more with the US. This time I think they will go very slow and slipping things in here and there until you find yourself and N. American, rather than a Canadian or American and you know where the head of the NA will be , not Canada. Goggle SPP and read just what they tried to do. This is more than about security, they just can't saying!

[August1991]

Yes longer waits and refused entry would annoy many Canadians. From what I understand, though, the new security deal is supposed to ease cross-border traffic, not slow it. I haven't read the details, however.

Bonam, I agree. And I too have not read the details. (To be honest, no one has because the agreement doesn't exist. From what I gather, the leak concerned Canadian government PR response to the agreement when announced.)

Whatever.

I have a simple litmus test for a cross-border agreement. If the US is willing to accept Canadian documents as equivalent to US documents, then the agreement is alright. IOW, and to give a precise example, if the US is willing to let a foreigner into the US on the basis of a Canadian visa (even though the foreigner may not have a US visa), then I would urge our federal government to approve this "perimeter agreement".

Otherwise, the whole thing is a fraud.

Edited December 12, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

I have a simple litmus test for a cross-border agreement. If the US is willing to accept Canadian documents as equivalent to US documents, then the agreement is alright. IOW, and to give a precise example, if the US is willing to let a foreigner into the US on the basis of a Canadian visa (even though the foreigner may not have a US visa), then I would urge our federal government to approve this "perimeter agreement".

Otherwise, the whole thing is a fraud.

Not sure I understand what you are saying. A Canadian with a passport already does not need a visa at all to enter the US.

[August1991]

This time I think they will go very slow and slipping things in here and there until you find yourself and N. American, rather than a Canadian or American and you know where the head of the NA will be , not Canada.

Topaz, we're all human beings and we're all alone. If you think otherwise, you are daft. If that right wing argument doesn't work, let me try a leftist argument: As John Lennon sang, "Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for... "

[Smallc]

Topaz, we're all human beings and we're all alone. If you think otherwise, you are daft. If that right wing argument doesn't work, let me try a leftist argument: As John Lennon sang, "Imagine there's no countries, It isn't hard to do, Nothing to kill or die for... "

I'm not sure you understand the purpose of those words. It doesn't even come close to meaning that we're alone. In fact, it means the exact opposite.

[August1991]

Not sure I understand what you are saying. A Canadian with a passport already does not need a visa at all to enter the US.

I am referring to foreigners (say, people from Thailand) who come to Canada. At present, if they want to cross the border and see Niagara Falls from the other side, they require a US visa.

I am suggesting that the US government should recognize a Canadian visa as the equivalent of a US visa. If the Canadian government allows a foreigner into Canada, then the US should accept the foreigner into the US too.

The French and German governments now do this through the Schengen Agreement. If Germany grants a visa to a foreigner, then France recognizes the visa so the foreigner can travel to France too - without a French visa.

Visas are one example. There are many others.

I'm not sure you understand the purpose of those words. It doesn't even come close to meaning that we're alone. In fact, it means the exact opposite.

But we are alone, smallc. And the sooner you learn this, and what it means, the better.

We come into existence alone, and we leave it alone.

Edited December 12, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

I am referring to foreigners (say, people from Thailand) who come to Canada. At present, if they want to cross the border and see Niagara Falls from the other side, they require a US visa.

I am suggesting that the US government should recognize a Canadian visa as the equivalent of a US visa. If the Canadian government allows a foreigner into Canada, then the US should accept the foreigner into the US too.

Hmm, why should they? I see no particular benefit for the US for doing so. Nor benefit for Canada for doing the reverse.

Visas are one example. There are many others.

Hmm, yeah, I'd love it if my Canadian security clearance let me work on US top secret defense contracts.

[August1991]

Hmm, why should they? I see no particular benefit for the US for doing so. Nor benefit for Canada for doing the reverse.

And Bonam, you sound like a typical Washington/Ottawa bureaucrat/politician.

If you were a bureaucrat, what difference does it make if foreigners cross the Canada-US border?

Hmm, yeah, I'd love it if my Canadian security clearance let me work on US top secret defense contracts.

I doubt that you have such a security clearance (if you did, you wouldn't risk losing it by posting here) but maybe now you get my point. Edited December 12, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

And Bonam, you sound like a typical Washington/Ottawa bureaucrat/politician.

If you were a bureaucrat, what difference does it make if foreigners cross the Canada-US border?

A better question is what difference does it make for Canadians if a foreigner can cross the Canada-US border. If an agreement made it so that a foreigner from Thailand could visit the US using his Canadian visa, how would that help me, as a Canadian? The Canadian government, when making deals with the American government, should be looking out for the interests of Canadians, not foreigners.

[Bonam]

I doubt that you have such a security clearance (if you did, you wouldn't risk losing it by posting here) but maybe now you get my point.

Actually, stating that you have a government security clearance does not violate any terms or restrictions of the clearance. In fact, you can advertise having such a clearance on your resume. And yes, I'd love it if my Canadian security clearance was equivalent to an American one, but given the differences between the two country's security standards, that is unlikely to happen.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Bonam

[Smallc]

Did anyone see the discussion at the end of QP today on CTV? I think that Robert Fife wanted to pop Jim Traverse in the face, and I didn't blame him. He was trying to explain why this will probably be good for Canada and the Conservatives, and Traverse kept talking about Trudeau and all the arguments of the past, things that I would hope that Canadians are past by now.

[August1991]

A better question is what difference does it make for Canadians if a foreigner can cross the Canada-US border.

In what imaginary world do you live, Bonam? Or do you still live in the 1950s?

The 747 was introduced in the 1970s. There's even the A380. It's cheap to travel and so people travel nowadays. We go abroad, and foreigners come here.

Imagine, Bonam. Imagine.

----

And CSIS gave you a security clearance? It's too bad we don't have a federal agency to give a "common sense clearance" before the federal government hires people.

Edited December 14, 2010 by August1991

[Bonam]

In what imaginary world do you live, Bonam? Or do you still live in the 1950s?

The 747 was introduced in the 1970s. There's even the A380. It's cheap to travel and so people travel nowadays. We go abroad, and foreigners come here.

Imagine, Bonam. Imagine.

None of this addresses my question.

[Bonam]

And CSIS gave you a security clearance? It's too bad we don't have a federal agency to give a "common sense clearance" before the federal government hires people.

Hmm... degenerating into thinly veiled insults already...

[dre]

OK...I need a bit of calibration here. From this and several other threads one would get the idea that vast numbers of Canadians get the itch to cross the US border, many times per year. Now my neighbours and I live just a few hours drive from International Falls, but we don't get ants in our pants to make a run for the border.

So what is it that causes this migratory behaviour from the north in such numbers? Is it weather? Cheaper gas and cigarettes? American relatives? What?

This clown just never gives up.

[Wilber]

OK...that makes sense at a practical level without any political spin. And so it would follow that more Canadians would get very excited about tougher border security, longer waits, refused entry, etc.

Around here they get very exited on both sides of the border. Canadians are a major source of revenue for American merchants in northern Washington State and they pay a ton of state sales tax.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Wilber

[dre]

As long as they make these agreements in the full light of day, and the minutes from meetings where they were negotiated are avaiable to the public.

You have to watch these fuckers like a hawk, and officials in the US and Canadian government are completely untrustworthy.

A friend of mine was commisioned to analyze a previous attempt at this kind of thing... The Security and Prosperity Partnership for North America, and prepare a report for either the senate, or some kind of ombudsmen... I dont remember. She told me lots of horror stories about that one, and all kinds of negotiations happening in back rooms, and so on. It eventually got killed.

The government still wont release unredacted minutes from the SPP meetings.

Edited December 14, 2010 by dre

[August1991]

None of this addresses my question.

If I understand properly, your question was:

A better question is what difference does it make for Canadians if a foreigner can cross the Canada-US border.

And in effect, that is the issue. How do we Canadians or Americans treat the foreigners (or foreign products) among us?

My point is that we Canadians and Americans can now easily travel to/have contact with/deal with the outside world, and the foreigners can easily deal with us. Maybe it's time to rethink this idea of a "border".

Edited December 15, 2010 by August1991