Cancun sun speeds decay of global warming charade

[waldo]

I don't agree that it is all man made, I believe the earth cycles and always, nothing we can do to stop it.

The sad fact is that millions are like you, and their opinions count.

and there you have it! Yes, quite a sad reflection on the populace, at large... particularly those whose only input to legitimate discussion is to throw back platitudes, disinformation, snarc and outright lies... because they can... or because POS newsrags like the National Post spur them on.

[Michael Hardner]

and there you have it! Yes, quite a sad reflection on the populace, at large... particularly those whose only input to legitimate discussion is to throw back platitudes, disinformation, snarc and outright lies... because they can... or because POS newsrags like the National Post spur them on.

There's no middle tier of intellectuals (right and left) that can proxy for the general population either. That went away years ago. Instead, we have entertainer/journalists whose primary goal is ratings at any cost.

The system works to defeat itself.

[Saipan]

You can keep doing nothing too, and you'll get warmer.

How does that work?

Happen to me only in Thailand.

Last year, for the first time, we had fire in a woodstove here, evey month of the year!

[TimG]

There's no middle tier of intellectuals (right and left) that can proxy for the general population either. That went away years ago. Instead, we have entertainer/journalists whose primary goal is ratings at any cost.

The real problem is the cultural gap. There are way too many self absorbed and consendencing intellectuals who feel that their values are superior because they happen to be more educated than the average person. These leads the the delusion that the policy choices preferred by the intellectual sub-class are actually the best policy choices for society. The anti-intellectual backlash that we are seeing is a direct result of this presumption. We see the arrogance of intellectuals in the climate debate whenever someone insists that science dictates that large scale CO2 reductions must happen immediately.

In short, people who care about the climate issue need to start eating some crow and acknowledge that the problem has been exaggerated in order to bully the the "stupid people" (sic) into supporting policies preferred by the liberal left. From there we can talk about rational responses to the CO2 risk that acknowledge what we know while taking into account differences in values among people that do limit our policy options.

Edited December 6, 2010 by TimG

[Guest TrueMetis]

Which is it oh wise one?

Both the El Nino ended and the La Nina began. The current La Nina should be ending and may have already ended.

[Shady]

It's a conspiracy I tell ya.

It's not a conspiracy. It's fairly well known, and widely admitted to by the IPCC.

[Shady]

The sad fact is that millions are like you, and their opinions count.

Why exactly is his opinion sad? Seems pretty reasonable to me. That there is warming, but not all of it is related to man made activity. Have you fallen into the alarmist camp too?

[The_Squid]

The sad fact is that millions are like you, and their opinions count.

True.... but here's some good news, for Canada at least:

58 per cent of respondents in Canada believe global warming is a fact and is mostly caused by emissions from vehicles and industrial facilities...

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/38822/views_on_global_warming_vary_in_three_countries/

Canadians seem to take an intellectual view of the issue for the most part....

There are way too many self absorbed and consendencing intellectuals who feel that their values are superior because they happen to be more educated than the average person.

The evidence and science for GW is cultural like gravity or evolution are cultural.

THe only people who have the viewpoint that this is some sort of "culture war" are those with a vested interest, be it political, economic or religious, in opposing the mainstream scientific view.

Edited December 6, 2010 by The_Squid

[Shady]

Canadians seem to take an intellectual view of the issue for the most part....

So the intellectual view is the unproven view? Anyways, Canadians also take the intellectual view of not wrecking our economy for little to no real results. Especially when countries like India and China don't have to comply.

[waldo]

I don't agree that it is all man made, I believe the earth cycles and always, nothing we can do to stop it.

The sad fact is that millions are like you, and their opinions count.

and there you have it! Yes, quite a sad reflection on the populace, at large... particularly those whose only input to legitimate discussion is to throw back platitudes, disinformation, snarc and outright lies... because they can... or because POS newsrags like the National Post spur them on.

There's no middle tier of intellectuals (right and left) that can proxy for the general population either. That went away years ago. Instead, we have entertainer/journalists whose primary goal is ratings at any cost.

The system works to defeat itself.

The real problem is the cultural gap. There are way too many self absorbed and consendencing intellectuals who feel that their values are superior because they happen to be more educated than the average person. These leads the the delusion that the policy choices preferred by the intellectual sub-class are actually the best policy choices for society. The anti-intellectual backlash that we are seeing is a direct result of this presumption. We see the arrogance of intellectuals in the climate debate whenever someone insists that science dictates that large scale CO2 reductions must happen immediately.

ya, ya that education thingee… a real burden to bear! TimG says trust in the policy choices of the uneducated; the, as he calls them, “anti-intellectuals”!!! Of course, Michael’s key point is lost on TimG… where most/many people (of whatever intellect TimG presumes to subscribe), get their understandings from the purveyors of, “ratings at any cost”. The nonsense, fabrications, distortions and outright lies pushed out by pseudo-journalists is probably one of the single greatest contributions to the dearth of critical thinking laypersons.

In short, people who care about the climate issue need to start eating some crow and acknowledge that the problem has been exaggerated in order to bully the the "stupid people" (sic) into supporting policies preferred by the liberal left. From there we can talk about rational responses to the CO2 risk that acknowledge what we know while taking into account differences in values among people that do limit our policy options.

clearly, through the assorted MLW climate change related threads, you’ve been unable to make any case for your broad-based suggestion of scientific “exaggeration”… whether with a policy influence intent, or not. Your so-called rational response to CO2 is anything but… your adapt-R-Us only approach fails miserably in the face of the additional required measures; i.e., necessary emission reductions, mitigation strategies, and prevention deployments.

[waldo]

Anyways, Canadians also take the intellectual view of not wrecking our economy for little to no real results. Especially when countries like India and China don't have to comply.

both India & China are signatories to the Copenhagen Accord... why spout off non-truths? The rational for India & China's placement within the Kyoto Accord was sound when drafted... no countries, including India & China, expect similar placement within any future agreements. Notwithstanding, of course, the most significant outsourcing of emissions by developed countries today.

Developed countries are "outsourcing" more than a third of their carbon emissions associated with products and services to other countries, researchers say.

A study of trade data found that some countries in Western Europe have more than half of their total carbon dioxide emissions occurring elsewhere, especially in developing countries such as China.

[TimG]

The evidence and science for GW is cultural like gravity or evolution are cultural.

Yawn. There is absolutely nothing in the science that says the best response to the hypothetical risk is kyoto-style CO2 reduction projects. In fact, the science tells us nothing about what should be done since the decision on what to do is a purely a question of politics, economics and values.

The trouble we have is way too many self described intellectuals are incapable of seperating the science from their own political ideology and that is what turns it into a "culture war".

[TimG]

The rational for India & China's placement within the Kyoto Accord was sound when drafted

It was only sound in within the minds of left wing activists who see climate change as a tool to promote their broader political agenda. In fact, the reason the US senate voted 97-0 against Kyoto was becuase they rejected the placement of China and India with in the Kyoto Accord.

[TimG]

been unable to make any case for your broad-based suggestion of scientific “exaggeration”

ROTFL. Peer reviewed economic studies claim that climate related economic costs will not exceed 5% of GDP 100 years from now. The IPCC's own economic models show that people will be 50% richer in 100 years if we do nothing to try to limit CO2 production today. Yet all these alarmists run around as if the world will come to an end if we do nothing.

… your adapt-R-Us only approach fails miserably in the face of the additional required measures;

Additional requires measures? Who says? You? That is nothing but your ideology talking. Edited December 7, 2010 by TimG

[Michael Hardner]

The real problem is the cultural gap. There are way too many self absorbed and consendencing intellectuals who feel that their values are superior because they happen to be more educated than the average person. These leads the the delusion that the policy choices preferred by the intellectual sub-class are actually the best policy choices for society. The anti-intellectual backlash that we are seeing is a direct result of this presumption. We see the arrogance of intellectuals in the climate debate whenever someone insists that science dictates that large scale CO2 reductions must happen immediately.

In short, people who care about the climate issue need to start eating some crow and acknowledge that the problem has been exaggerated in order to bully the the "stupid people" (sic) into supporting policies preferred by the liberal left. From there we can talk about rational responses to the CO2 risk that acknowledge what we know while taking into account differences in values among people that do limit our policy options.

Well, nobody said the intellectual elite was SMART. Oh no, wait... THEY did.

You're right, this is a cultural problem, and it manifests itself in a lot of different ways. The internet is the solution, and the problem. The climate science is good, the political discussion around it is bad, and the exaggerated claims around the effects are also bad. The mainstream press often gets both sides wrong. I don't know what to do about it except throw pebbles around a forum board when I see something that's wrong.

[jbg]

The sad fact is that millions are like you, and their opinions count.

It could well be in a democracy that the masses are smarter than the elitists.

[jbg]

Both the El Nino ended and the La Nina began. The current La Nina should be ending and may have already ended.

Not bloody likely. First of all, even during the "warm phases" of the PDO Niñas can be multi-year events; they just fade to weak faster and linger. Since probably 2007-8 (some say 1997-8 but I strongly disagree) we've been in a "cold phase", much like the 50's, 60's and early 70's that have a distinctly Niña-ish cast. I suspect we get at least one more Niña winter, maybe two more, out of this one.

For me and my winter sports I root for Niño, since last winter, a strong Niño winter we had about 50" of snow (in Central Park) and even 26 miles north, where I live we had about 40". This winter we'll be lucky to get 15"-20".

[Michael Hardner]

It could well be in a democracy that the masses are smarter than the elitists.

The democracy doesn't depend on masses, though, it depends on an interested public.

[TimG]

I don't know what to do about it except throw pebbles around a forum board when I see something that's wrong.

Don't get dragged into arguing the science. Make it clear that the science and the policy discussion are seperate and agreeing on the science does not necessarily mean agreement on policy. If enough people take that approach then science will stop being the whipping boy in a political fight. People will not agree on policy but at least we stop destroying the credibility of the best tool we have to understand the world around us.

[TimG]

It could well be in a democracy that the masses are smarter than the elitists.

There is a legimate argument for crowd sourced policy making.

[jbg]

There is a legimate argument for crowd sourced policy making.

Absolutely. When the elites are totally out of touch with the struggles of the common person. The worker worries about balancing the family checkbook. The elites look for ways to tack on $.10 to a litre of heating oil or gasoline to send the money to foreign dictators. The middle class, without bread, can eat cake, right?

[Bonam]

Not bloody likely. First of all, even during the "warm phases" of the PDO Niñas can be multi-year events; they just fade to weak faster and linger. Since probably 2007-8 (some say 1997-8 but I strongly disagree) we've been in a "cold phase", much like the 50's, 60's and early 70's that have a distinctly Niña-ish cast. I suspect we get at least one more Niña winter, maybe two more, out of this one.

For me and my winter sports I root for Niño, since last winter, a strong Niño winter we had about 50" of snow (in Central Park) and even 26 miles north, where I live we had about 40". This winter we'll be lucky to get 15"-20".

La Nina is great for me here on the West Coast. This should be a killer winter for skiing. Baker gets 1000+ inches of snowfall in La Nina years Already went 5 times and a decent bit of powder even this early in the season.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Bonam

[jbg]

La Nina is great for me here on the West Coast. This should be a killer winter for skiing. Baker gets 1000+ inches of snowfall in La Nina years Already went 5 times and a decent bit of powder even this early in the season.

Too bad La Niña didn't give us what we wanted for the Olympics; El Niño was in town.

[Guest TrueMetis]

La Nina is great for me here on the West Coast. This should be a killer winter for skiing. Baker gets 1000+ inches of snowfall in La Nina years Already went 5 times and a decent bit of powder even this early in the season.

Lucky you, I don't have the cash to hit the mountains but I would love to.

[Bonam]

Lucky you, I don't have the cash to hit the mountains but I would love to.

Hey I'm not exactly rich either, grad students tend to live on a pretty limited budget. Gotta allot some cash to enjoy the fine things in life though.

That being said, you can enjoy skiing a lot cheaper (and year round) by doing it in the back country, assuming that you've got the skills, knowledge, equipment, and partner(s) required to do so safely. Incidentally, you also get a lot more exercise if you have to get up the mountain under your own power