Ford era begins in Toronto

[Black Dog]

1) The service is slow.

2) They are subject to extraordinary delays

3) Because of 1 and 2, they are always crowded

4) They are a traffic impedance

5) They run poorly in winter

6) Tracks are a cycling hazard

...and that's just off the top of my head...

It's funny how many of those just don't apply to LRT or can just as easily be said of subways.

[Black Dog]

So you are saying, the new streetcars that Toronto has ordered, that new tracks had to be laid down?

Nope, my mistake: I assumed the LRTs and the new street cars were different beasts.

That being said, your assertion that the street cars purchased under the evidently doomed Transit City plan can still be used omits the fact that the replacement street cars are alreayd on order, so we're looking at a pretty huge streetcar surplus. Doesn't seem like an efficient use of tax dollars.

It's a minor point over all.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Black Dog

[Black Dog]

You gotta admit Black Dog, he really smacked you down there.

Stick to legitimate criticisms of Ford, as there are several. But on this issue, you don't have a leg to stand on.

Yeah, I got owned on the pivotal issue of track gauge

You are so dumb. It's breathtaking, really.

[M.Dancer]

Nope, my mistake: I assumed the LRTs and the new street cars were different beasts.

That being said, your assertion that the street cars purchased under the evidently doomed Transit City plan can still be used omits the fact that the replacement street cars are alreayd on order, so we're looking at a pretty huge streetcar surplus. Doesn't seem like an efficient use of tax dollars.

Not sure if I am following but I am under the impression we were getting the streetcars one way or another, with or with out transit city..so the funding will be spent...I don't see a choice in this as the curre t fleet is ready to be sold off to a 3rd world country...

[bloodyminded]

Yeah, I got owned on the pivotal issue of track gauge

They gotta take whatever victories they can find; it's virtually a famine situation, after all.....

[M.Dancer]

It's funny how many of those just don't apply to LRT or can just as easily be said of subways.

Streetcars are LRTs....and subways rarely impeded traffic.

The right of ways by their very existence impede traffic, the lane reductions are dangerous and present safety challnges to first responders....I question the rationale to the core. Had they buried them...

[Black Dog]

Not sure if I am following but I am under the impression we were getting the streetcars one way or another, with or with out transit city..so the funding will be spent...I don't see a choice in this as the curre t fleet is ready to be sold off to a 3rd world country...

They ordered about 200 of the new cars to replace the existing fleet. The Transit City purchase would bring an additional 400 (slightly different)models into the fold.

[M.Dancer]

They ordered about 200 of the new cars to replace the existing fleet. The Transit City purchase would bring an additional 400 (slightly different)models into the fold.

I am dubious of the whole thing..from the tendering to the final selection. But wone thing I ma sure of, Toronto does not need more St Clair headaches

[Black Dog]

Streetcars are LRTs....and subways rarely impeded traffic.

The right of ways by their very existence impede traffic,

They don't impede traffic, they simply reduce the amount of lanes available. I work on St. Clair, BTW and I've yet to observe any gridlock on my end of the strip. Lots of full street cars, though.

I question the rationale to the core. Had they buried them...

Subways cost around $300 million per kilometre of track, whereas a kilometre of streetcar costs $50 million. Also, St. Clair, Scraborough and so forth don't have the density to support a subway line (see: the Sheppard Line).

No question the city needs more subways: the DRL is long overdue. But subways are not a one size fits all solution to a city with diverse transit needs.

I am dubious of the whole thing..from the tendering to the final selection. But wone thing I ma sure of, Toronto does not need more St Clair headaches

St. Clair was a disaster, but I believe the problem was in the execution and not the fundamental plan to bring in light rail.

(BTW, for the purposes of clairty, street cars and light rail should be considered different entities as the latter operates on a dedicated right of way and not on the street per se.)

Edited December 1, 2010 by Black Dog

[Shady]

1) The service is slow.

2) They are subject to extraordinary delays

3) Because of 1 and 2, they are always crowded

4) They are a traffic impedance

5) They run poorly in winter

6) Tracks are a cycling hazard

...and that's just off the top of my head...

It's funny how many of those just don't apply to LRT or can just as easily be said of subways.

That's complete nonsense. Subways travel at faster speeds, don't have to deal with traffic and/or traffic lights. They don't impede traffic. They don't have to deal with snow during the winter the way regular traffic does. And they aren't a cycling hazard. So actually, none of those apply to subways. Keep trying.

[Black Dog]

That's complete nonsense. Subways travel at faster speeds, don't have to deal with traffic and/or traffic lights. They don't impede traffic. They don't have to deal with snow during the winter the way regular traffic does. And they aren't a cycling hazard. So actually, none of those apply to subways. Keep trying.

Subways are frequently subject to delays. I know because, unlike you, I ride them every day. They are also ridiculously crowded because they are over capacity, something Ford's little stub to the mall won't address in the slightest.

Other issues are also addressed by the new fleet. Faster? The new LRTs travel 23 km/hr. Subways top out at 30 km/h. I also expect the new state of the art street cars will be more reliable in winter than the 30 year old clunkers they are replacing. So what's left? Impede traffic? Get out of your car. Dangerous for cyclists? Pay attention when you cross them.

Of course subways have their advantages, no doubt. But they don't work everywhere.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Black Dog

[M.Dancer]

(BTW, for the purposes of clairty, street cars and light rail should be considered different entities as the latter operates on a dedicated right of way and not on the street per se.)

Ummm..yeah okay....even if they use the same rolling stock...in which case, Stclair is a streetcar from Yonge station to just east of yonge, the in between Avenue and st clair, Spadina and St Clair.....the rest of the time it is an LRT

The reduction from 6 lanes to 4 impedes traffic..add the delivery van parked on the side and you are down to one lane going in one direction...add 5 o'clock traffic and a fire call and the Knights of Balmoral fire station are buskered..I've seen them use the ROW until stopped by a streetcar (it was between avenue so it wasn't a LRT at that point..) and because of traffic, couldn't get around it...

[Black Dog]

Ummm..yeah okay....even if they use the same rolling stock...in which case, Stclair is a streetcar from Yonge station to just east of yonge, the in between Avenue and st clair, Spadina and St Clair.....the rest of the time it is an LRT

Whatever.

The reduction from 6 lanes to 4 impedes traffic..add the delivery van parked on the side and you are down to one lane going in one direction...add 5 o'clock traffic and a fire call and the Knights of Balmoral fire station are buskered..I've seen them use the ROW until stopped by a streetcar (it was between avenue so it wasn't a LRT at that point..) and because of traffic, couldn't get around it...

So what's your alternative? You keep mumbling about subways, but don't address the fact that they require a higher level of use to be remotely worth the cost, which means St. Clair would end up with bupkis, transit wise. And when it comes to money, you grumble that they shouldn't build anything if the money's not there, but what do you suppose that would do for gridlock?

Edited December 1, 2010 by Black Dog

[Shady]

A bigger and better subway system could make street cars almost unnecessary, alleviating a significant portion of traffic. This is the way the city should be looking. Not adding more and more and more vehicles to an already crowded traffic problem.

[Shady]

Whatever.

Great response to his point! Especially from somebody that says this...

Perhaps you could try making an actual argument for once. You know what that is right? You state a position and back it up with evidence.

Oh the irony!

[M.Dancer]

So what's your alternative? You keep mumbling about subways, but don't address the fact that they require a higher level of use to be remotely worth the cost, which means St. Clair would end up with bupkis, transit wise. And when it comes to money, you grumble that they shouldn't build anything if the money's not there, but what do you suppose that would do for gridlock?

My mumbling about subways is limited to build them if we can get funding, don't build anything if we can't.

Miller quipped years ago that the streetcars were not ideal but it was the best they could get....I disagree...I think streetcars make the problem worse....Noqw maybe up near hwy 7 or steeles they would work...but not in the city. I would scrap the King and Queen lines..

If someone asked me what I would want to see it would be this...

a new east west subway, along lakeshore from cozwell to royal york

A new east west subway, along eglinton from leslie to humber

A new north south subway along the Don, From Steeles to lakeshore

A new North South subway along the humber, from Steeles to lakeshore....

[Black Dog]

My mumbling about subways is limited to build them if we can get funding, don't build anything if we can't.

So basically if you can't afford a Lexus, you might as well walk? Seems, well, stupid.

The city needs transit relief. The city can't afford subways everywhere. Something's gotta give and if you think twiddlingh your thumbs is a solution, enjoy the gridlock!

Miller quipped years ago that the streetcars were not ideal but it was the best they could get....I disagree...I think streetcars make the problem worse....Noqw maybe up near hwy 7 or steeles they would work...but not in the city. I would scrap the King and Queen lines..

What is the "problem" streetcars have made worse?

If someone asked me what I would want to see it would be this...

a new east west subway, along lakeshore from cozwell to royal york

A new east west subway, along eglinton from leslie to humber

A new north south subway along the Don, From Steeles to lakeshore

A new North South subway along the humber, from Steeles to lakeshore....

And I'm sure all the penny pinching car lovers who voted for His Lardship would love love love to shell out the extra $50 Billion or so it would cost for this plan.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Black Dog

[Black Dog]

Great response to his point! Especially from somebody that says this...

Oh the irony!

His point wasn't a point at all, but a minor semantic digression not worthy of any further response. Are you just going to keep hiding behind Dancer's pant leg on this?

A bigger and better subway system could make street cars almost unnecessary, alleviating a significant portion of traffic. This is the way the city should be looking. Not adding more and more and more vehicles to an already crowded traffic problem.

Actually, maybe you should sit this one out junior.

[Shady]

Actually, maybe you should sit this one out junior.

Wow, another great response. Similar to your whatever response earlier.

[M.Dancer]

So basically if you can't afford a Lexus, you might as well walk? Seems, well, stupid.

Unless of course by walking you are saving....

What is the "problem" streetcars have made worse?

Must we go over St Clair again?

The streetcars service has not imporved noticeably.

The traffic jams are only between 7 to 7

The energency vehicles are slowed.

North South Traffic is interupted.

Parking curtailed and retailers suffer

There isn't enougth room with two lanes each way for bikes

...and so on

And I'm sure all the penny pinching car lovers who voted for His Lardship would love love love to shell out the extra $50 Billion or so it would cost for this plan.

I din't vote for him...but that was my wish list, there ain't a hope in hell that would make the cut.

[Michael Hardner]

These megaprojects shouldn't be able to be instituted so easily.

This has been in the works for years now. So we're going to start over ?

[Black Dog]

Wow, another great response. Similar to your whatever response earlier.

Yeah, you get the response you deserve. I guess I shuld only blame myself for getting sucked into your vortex of ignorance again. It's funny how you follow the same pattern in every thread:

Shady: posts something vague and kinda dopey that doesn't really speak to the issue, usually recycled boilerplate from (insert right-wing cause du jour here)

Me: Goddamn that's dumb. Here's a few reasons why.

Shady: Ha! You called me dumb! You're dumb!

Me: That's neither here nor there. Why won't you actually try a real argument instead of just making dumb remarks recycled from (right-wing cause du jour)?

Shady: Ha! You called me dumb again! You're dumb!

Me: Fuck off and die.

And it looks like we've arrived. Now fuck off and die in a fire.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Black Dog

[Michael Hardner]

No ground has broken other that the psychosis on St Clair...so no harm done...

Only precious time has been lost... again...

[Michael Hardner]

And on top of that, Street Car service has not improved noticeably...

It seems to me transit time to Keele W. just HAS TO BE shorter. That opens up that entire area for growth.

[Black Dog]

Unless of course by walking you are saving....

As I said:

The city needs transit relief. The city can't afford subways everywhere. Something's gotta give and if you think twiddling your thumbs is a solution, enjoy the gridlock!