wyly Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 Unfortunately,I tend to agree...Phony "We support the troops" nationalistic patriotism will not change historical fact... but politically what else can they say? the liberals and conservatives both supported the war, they be hammered at the polls should either state the truth, their in lockstep...I can say anything I want because I'm not running for MP, being politically correct isn't on my agenda... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 We are attempting to "tame" it to "democratize" it... Any historical evidence that proves this is going to happen? You do realize that Afghanistan has been a Republic since 1973 right? They did that on their own, they didn't do very well but we didn't have to force them to be a democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) You do realize that Afghanistan has been a Republic since 1973 right? They did that on their own, they didn't do very well but we didn't have to force them to be a democracy. Yes I did know that... How did that work out vis a vis the Najibullah Marxist revolution and subsequent Soviet invasion circa 1979? And since then... Then explain the British and Alexander the Great failures... Then tell us all again how this works out in our favour?? This is NOT coming from a "peace freak"...I think there is a place for a "Just War"... I just do not see where success is possible in Afghanistan... Edited November 20, 2010 by Jack Weber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 Afghanistan was doing well on its own until the 9/11 happened and the whole OBL thing. Do we REALLY know that there were training camps there? There so much info. out there who knows what the truth is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 you know the entire time the USA was in vietnam they never lost a battle... Yes they did. My link I'm confused generally only hardcore US military supporters make this moronic claim. they left the Vietnamese military far better equipped and trained than the afghan military will be, educationally and level of sophistication the afghans are light-years behind the s Vietnamese ...yet in the end the result was inevitable... This is not true in the slightest. The North Vietnamese and Vietnamese where heavily trained and very experienced. The Taliban are a joke, green Canadian recruits kick the crap out of the Taliban. And if the South Vietnamese actually did have a better military than the Afghan military they would have destroyed the Vietcong and North Vietnamese through sheer numbers. the taliban like the viet-cong and n vietnamese have time and motivation/devotion to the cause on their side... Not even close, many Taliban aren't even Afghani's, and many of the rest only do it for the paycheck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 Not even close, many Taliban aren't even Afghani's, and many of the rest only do it for the paycheck. You've hit on something here...I'll let you guess the nature of what really needs to happen in this "conflict"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 You do realize that Afghanistan has been a Republic since 1973 right? They did that on their own, they didn't do very well but we didn't have to force them to be a democracy. you do realize that it was a marxist dictatorship that tossed out the monarchy in a coup in '73? right?...it was much a democracy as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea...there was nothing democratic about it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) you do realize that it was a marxist dictatorship that tossed out the monarchy in a coup in '73? right?...it was much a democracy as the Democratic People's Republic of Korea...there was nothing democratic about it... The 73 coup was it being taken from the monarch by the Monarchs brother-in-law, the Marxist coup happened in 78 when the PDPA took over. If you look at the history of Afghanistan you can see that the reason they never voted on their next president even though the system was in place was because outsiders kept screwing them over. Edited November 20, 2010 by TrueMetis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 Yes they did. My link I'm confused generally only hardcore US military supporters make this moronic claim.attacking then making a hasty retreat is not winning a battle...This is not true in the slightest. The North Vietnamese and Vietnamese where heavily trained and very experienced. The Taliban are a joke, green Canadian recruits kick the crap out of the Taliban. And if the South Vietnamese actually did have a better military than the Afghan military they would have destroyed the Vietcong and North Vietnamese through sheer numbers.green canadians only survive because of american backup/airpower, without it they would've been overrun 8 yrs ago, delusional ... the Taliban have highly experienced military leaders all they know is war they've been at it for 30+ years...south vietnam had the third largest airforce in the world at the time and what good did it do them...the south vietnamese were as well trained as the north and probably better than the VC, but motivation is the kicker, if you don't believe in what your fighting for you have no chance, the north and the VC had all the motivation and commitment...without motivation troops will drop their guns and run at the first setback and that's just what the S Vietnamese did, the south wasn't united in the cause...the afghan military would've been no match for the S vietnamese...Not even close, many Taliban aren't even Afghani's, and many of the rest only do it for the paycheck.nice myth, they may have some volunteers but they're primarily Pushtun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 attacking then making a hasty retreat is not winning a battle... First off yes it can be if you inflict enough damage second did you even look at the link? A few highlights. August 1967 Air Battle - This war produced two American "Ace" fighter pilots (i.e. more than five aerial kills), yet the North Vietnamese had 16, including Nguyen Van Coc (right), the top Ace of the war with nine kills. On Aug. 23, 1967, Coc led several MIG fighters to intercept a group of 40 American aircraft on a bombing mission. They shot down three American F-4D fighters and one F-105D fighter-bomber without losing a single MIG. Eight American aviators were killed or captured.5. Battle for Hill 861 - In 1967, Bravo Company, 1st battalion, 9th Marines went to search for caves on Hill 861. After a skirmish, the company attacked up the hill without knowing that it had encountered a large enemy force. Most of Bravo was wiped out and the survivors were pinned down until rescued by Kilo company that night. 9. Battle of the Slopes - A company of American paratroopers was searching for the NVA in rough terrain when it was attacked by a large force. It suffered 76 KIA as it fled, with two platoons wiped out. Etc. green canadians only survive because of american backup/airpower, without it they would've been overrun 8 yrs ago, delusional ... the Taliban have highly experienced military leaders all they know is war they've been at it for 30+ years...south vietnam had the third largest airforce in the world at the time and what good did it do them...the south vietnamese were as well trained as the north and probably better than the VC, but motivation is the kicker, if you don't believe in what your fighting for you have no chance, the north and the VC had all the motivation and commitment...without motivation troops will drop their guns and run at the first setback and that's just what the S Vietnamese did, the south wasn't united in the cause...the afghan military would've been no match for the S vietnamese... My ass, you think there is back up and helicopters every single skirmish? A lot of these fights take place in small villages where that kind of support can't be used without risking large civilian casualties. There is a reason that IED's are responsible for the majority of kills by the Taliban, it's because the Taliban's fighting skills are a joke. They may have some decent commanders (though if they did they wouldn't be using such pathetic tactics) but that can't make up for inferior troops. And don't give me that the south Vietnamese didn't have "motivation and commitment" crap they where defending their homes. nice myth, they may have some volunteers but they're primarily Pushtun I didn't say they weren't but the Taliban being such a tiny group even the lose of the people who are only in it for the money or aren't Afghani would be a huge blow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted November 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 100% uncorruption is onl;y possible in an absolute tryanny...similar claims of corruption exist in almost every democracy, from Australia, the UK, Italy, USA and even Canada...so that claim too fails. I never said anything about 100% "uncorruption". I'm talking about the Afghan government becoming so corrupt that it ceases to being anything resembling a functioning democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 I never said anything about 100% "uncorruption". I'm talking about the Afghan government becoming so corrupt that it ceases to being anything resembling a functioning democracy. You've got to start somewhere and this is a helluva lot better than the Taliban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted November 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 I say: Let Afghans sort this question out. IMV, as long as Afghans don't offer a place for Islamic radicals to threaten Western society then who cares about the Taliban. Afghanistan can be a backward society where clan membership decides status and women are treated like sheep. Does it matter? Yes in principle, it does. But Afghans must decide this - like Saudis and Koreans for their own societies. I pretty much agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted November 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 Just to point out that the polls I have seen say the exact opposite. Agreed. Though i would question the accuracy of polling in such a diverse and spread-out country pop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted November 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 (edited) It may be un PC but corruption, graft and "commissions" are part of the culture...it is expected. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-11782795 http://news.oneindia.in/2010/11/16/weare-closely-monitoring-corruption-in-pakistanholbrook.html Very true, as is similar in Latin America and elsewhere. It's just how they're accustomed to doing things. Edited November 20, 2010 by Moonlight Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted November 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 How would all those bumper sticker sloganeering buffoons think who've never thought this through... You've hit on something historical that most of the "We support the troops" crowd never grasps... There's a big difference in supporting the troops and supporting the mission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted November 20, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 You've got to start somewhere and this is a helluva lot better than the Taliban. Check again in 10 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 Check again in 10 years. Looking at Afghanistan's past I would bet money that things will get a lot better. The Taliban were f*cked even by the standards of crappy theocratic middle eastern governments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 There's a big difference in supporting the troops and supporting the mission. I realize that... The shot was at the folks who put those stickers on their cars and then think if you don't support the military somehow you are not patriotic or somehow less of a Canadian... I believe the mission was a loser from the beginning because it was aimed at the wrong place to combat Islamofascism... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 I'm talking about the Afghan government becoming so corrupt that it ceases to being anything resembling a functioning democracy. The question is who are we to decide for another country what is and what is not corrupt, and what they are willing to put up with. For all we know, a corrupt government may be a step up from what they previously had, i.e. no government at all. A country's populace may be tricked into believing it lives in a democratic state but its government may be mired in undemocratic processes. We are really outsiders looking in and not living in their world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capricorn Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 Looking at Afghanistan's past I would bet money that things will get a lot better. I believe so as well. We will only know once foreign troops withdraw and Afghans are left to their own devices. Afghans will determine their own path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TrueMetis Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 I believe so as well. We will only know once foreign troops withdraw and Afghans are left to their own devices. Afghans will determine their own path. Which would require there troops to be trained, if they didn't have the Taliban to contend with it wouldn't be a problem but the Taliban have taken control through force before and they will try again as soon as we leave. So in order for them to choose their own path they have to be able to prevent ambushes along that path and spot the IED's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted November 20, 2010 Report Share Posted November 20, 2010 Afghanistan was doing well on its own until the 9/11 happened and the whole OBL thing. Do we REALLY know that there were training camps there? Doing well on its own? It was a brutal theocratic dictatorship run by murderous wack jobs from the sixth century. And yes, we DO know there were training camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted November 21, 2010 Report Share Posted November 21, 2010 Afghanistan was doing well on its own until the 9/11 happened and the whole OBL thing. Do we REALLY know that there were training camps there? There so much info. out there who knows what the truth is. Why would you think a civil war was doing well? You think they deserve war? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GostHacked Posted November 21, 2010 Report Share Posted November 21, 2010 Why would you think a civil war was doing well? You think they deserve war? Even if it was a civil war, why should anyone else get involved? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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