GWiz Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Sorry my new planeless friend....whenever member segnosaur decides to engage, you are toast but just don't know it yet. Excuse me while I go take a crap... btw - I just found out that AUSTRALIA is RICH enough to buy Millions of dollars Planes, even modifying them for specific uses, as a "stop gap" measure... I didn't know that, did you? Edited March 12, 2011 by GWiz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 GWiz made an incorrect statement about the plane being "nowhere near production". I provided evidence that he was wrong, that indeed the plane was in production. The fact that the information was 2 weeks old is irrelevant... GWiz was still wrong. In any case my more particular point centered around the "production" label reference. Clearly, in the many years from now context of when Canada is presumed to receive it's flight-ready planes, playing off the alphabet-soup designations of the multi-lot LRIP development phases seems a might premature. - An additional $4.6 billion would be added to the SDD program through its completion in 2016, on top of the $9.2 billion to go already planned by the end of 2010, for a total to go SDD cost of $13.8 billion. Through FY11 approximately $37 billion had been spent on JSF SDD. Also, the schedule would be extended so that the SDD would end in early 2016 instead of mid-2015 as planned in the 2010 JET II Revised schedule. The extra SDD funding was needed because: (A) TBR found that additional testing would be needed that was not previously planned; and ( cost estimates for previously planned testing were too low. All 3 services were to reassess their planned IOCs based on revised SDD schedule, but had not done so by January 2011 - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-35-program.htm YOU wouldn't happen to know what SDD means? Noun production (plural productions)6.that which is manufactured or is ready for manufacturing in volume (as opposed to a prototype or conceptual model) This is the final production model. uhhh... SDD would seem to have a prototype flavour - in any case, that was my point... there is production... and there is... production. However, it is heartening to see there is a real (prototype) plane... in the air; one that has presumptions of being... production ready... by 2016. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 uhhh... SDD would seem to have a prototype flavour - in any case, that was my point... there is production... and there is... production. However, it is heartening to see there is a real (prototype) plane... in the air; one that has presumptions of being... production ready... by 2016. Still missing the target..."production" includes the entire vertical supply chain, not just a completed aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Still missing the target..."production" includes the entire vertical supply chain, not just a completed aircraft. Yeah, waldo's OK though, on the right track on might say, eh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Canada Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 All this money isn't due up front. That seems to be misrepresented in the media. Only about $9 Billion is due right away, the rest is for maintenance, parts and labour spread out over 20 years. I think critics should be honest about that and currently they're not. They're misleading Canada and not being honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 The money is a big problem but another bigger problem to anyone buy the aircraft is the codes to the software and the US will NOT allow any of the countries to have been. Who in the world would buy an aircraft CONTROLLED by another country, even the US? Perhaps Canada under the Tories, But Turkey is thinking twice about this and the UK, also is thinking of cancelling which will drive up the price. In today's world, the US wouldn't even spend billions and not have control over the codes for the software so why do they think others countries would? A better question is why is McKay? Is it he knows the plan to have the US and Canada become one, so it doesn't matter.? http://www.todayszaman.com/news-237992-code-crisis-overshadows-turkeys-planned-purchase-of-f-35-jets.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YEGmann Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 ... they've already flown their first production plane Even two of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Without an engine...$50-$60 thousand. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/story/2011/03/10/sk-snowbirds-jet-auction-110310.html Anyone remember these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_T-33 Pretty much a P-80 Shooting Star which saw much action in Korea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 The money is a big problem but another bigger problem to anyone buy the aircraft is the codes to the software and the US will NOT allow any of the countries to have been. Who in the world would buy an aircraft CONTROLLED by another country, even the US? Perhaps Canada under the Tories, But Turkey is thinking twice about this and the UK, also is thinking of cancelling which will drive up the price. In today's world, the US wouldn't even spend billions and not have control over the codes for the software so why do they think others countries would? A better question is why is McKay? Is it he knows the plan to have the US and Canada become one, so it doesn't matter.? http://www.todayszaman.com/news-237992-code-crisis-overshadows-turkeys-planned-purchase-of-f-35-jets.html Topaz, it is obvious that both you and the reporter who wrote the article don't really understand what software code actually IS! The idea that an outside force could seize control and start flying the plane remotely would add about and extra BAZILLION bucks to the cost of the plane! It might be possible to remotely disable the engine, in order to protect against theft or against some ally eventually becoming an enemy and using their F-35 to strike a American target but that's not likely. The US is pretty careful about to whom they'll sell their planes. No, the real reason that the US wants to keep it secret and some countries want it for free is that this sort of code is incredibly expensive and all or portions could be used in other aircraft! Nowadays just about everything in such a plane is controlled by computer chips run by software programs stored in software code. Such code has to undergo extensive testing. A bug in a software could cause a plane to misfunction or even crash. That software code could be worth millions on the black market. China and other countries would love to have a copy for their own new designs! The US would be a fool to just hand the software code over to some other country. What's more, you have to get a bit suspicious as to why another country would REALLY want to have it! They don't need it at all to fly or maintain the plane. So what's their problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 So what's their problem? c'mon WB... given the state of the U.S. empire/economy... at least agree to have it put in escrow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Anyone remember these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadair_T-33 Pretty much a P-80 Shooting Star which saw much action in Korea. Hey...I really like the red one! But you get more speeding tickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 (edited) Hey...I really like the red one! But you get more speeding tickets. Tell me about it...ex-owner of a RED 72 Gran Torino and a RED 65 Mustang. I now own a RED mini van...lol. Licence and registration, please. Edited March 12, 2011 by DogOnPorch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keepitsimple Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 All this money isn't due up front. That seems to be misrepresented in the media. Only about $9 Billion is due right away, the rest is for maintenance, parts and labour spread out over 20 years. I think critics should be honest about that and currently they're not. They're misleading Canada and not being honest. Even THAT is not quite right. Most of the purchase price for the F35's will be paid as they are delivered, starting in 2017. I'm not sure, but I believe delivery of all 65 will be staged over 5 years or so. That means that we're looking at less than $2 billion a year starting 5 years from now. As for the maintenance, let's not forget that we are currently paying maintenance costs for our CF18's - and their advanced age means the costs are rising.....so as we transition to the F35's the maintenance costs are not NEW costs - they are simply a continuation of maintenance costs for our air force. So.....for the media to keep throwing around numbers like $20 and $30 billion - without properly qualifying the yearly expenditure and WHEN it will start - is grossly mis-leading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 Yeah, waldo's OK though, on the right track on might say, eh... it truly is insightful to read such fervent clamoring over a definition of production... who would have thought that so-called, SDD - Systems Development and Demonstration aircraft, would be so, righteously, defended as "production" craft... apparently, testing to prove out design/requirements has nothing at all to do with actual mass "production" - go figure! What was that about Canada and 2016 (2017... according to Simple?), anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 So.....for the media to keep throwing around numbers like $20 and $30 billion - without properly qualifying the yearly expenditure and WHEN it will start - is grossly mis-leading. the media "throw-out" you speak to is simply based on 2 provisions 1. - the Harper Government™ numbers, ala DND (uhhh... $17 billion, not $20), and 2. - the Parliamentary Budget Officer, Kevin Page's numbers... per his recently released "watchdog/audit" report. as the PBO Kevin Page report highlighted, DND advised it had not actually done an analysis to account for it's provided numbers... the numbers the Harper Government™ would have everyone accept, without explanation, without substantiation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Ashley Posted March 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) British Stealth UCAV http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1294037/Taranis-The-143million-unmanned-stealth-jet-hit-targets-continent.html?ITO=1490 PROJECT COST: £143 million pounds that is $223 million Canadian.. (can't find a unit price on a production run) dasault neuron.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_nEUROn unit cost 25 million euro 33 million cad Here is my proposal.. buy a wad of those 3 million dollar venzuelian jets (like 100 for $300 million. a few russian 5 gens say 20 or so) then buy a crapload of ucavs. like say 200 or so. you can get this for say 2 billion dollars. Then put the other 7 billion into Canadian defence infrastructure and building a canadian owned defence industry rather than buying from only US companies at super inflated gouged prices. Edited March 13, 2011 by William Ashley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 ....Then put the other 7 billion into Canadian defence infrastructure and building a canadian owned defence industry rather than buying from only US companies at super inflated gouged prices. Good luck with that...Canada would have to build its own missiles, guided bombs, other ordnance, retrofit kits, GPS system, and digital data links. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 British Stealth UCAV http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1294037/Taranis-The-143million-unmanned-stealth-jet-hit-targets-continent.html?ITO=1490 PROJECT COST: £143 million pounds that is $223 million Canadian.. (can't find a unit price on a production run) dasault neuron.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_nEUROn unit cost 25 million euro 33 million cad Here is my proposal.. buy a wad of those 3 million dollar venzuelian jets (like 100 for $300 million. a few russian 5 gens say 20 or so) then buy a crapload of ucavs. like say 200 or so. you can get this for say 2 billion dollars. Then put the other 7 billion into Canadian defence infrastructure and building a canadian owned defence industry rather than buying from only US companies at super inflated gouged prices. Here's an even better idea... F/A-18E/F "Super Hornet" - On September 28, 2010, Boeing Cannounced it had been awarded a new multi-year procurement contract valued at $5.297 billion from the U.S. Navy for 124 F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler aircraft. Under the terms of the agreement, Boeing is to deliver 66 Super Hornets and 58 Growlers to the Navy from 2012 through 2015. The multi-mission F/A-18E/F "Super Hornet" strike fighter is an upgrade of the combat-proven night strike F/A-18C/D. The Super Hornet will provide the battle group commander with a platform that has range, endurance, and ordnance carriage capabilities comparable to the A-6 which have been retired. - ps Canada currently flies CF-18a aircraft, the OLDEST of the F-18 models, although SOME of them have been upgraded fairly recently... 2x The planes at 1/2 the price (or less) works for me... The FACT that they are a PROVEN, modern, "in production", available, a MONEY MAKING vs money costing maintenance package, and the FACT it is better suited to Canada's NEEDS Fighter Jet, is just the BONUS... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 2x The planes at 1/2 the price (or less) works for me... The FACT that they are a PROVEN, modern, "in production", available, a MONEY MAKING vs money costing maintenance package, and the FACT it is better suited to Canada's NEEDS Fighter Jet, is just the BONUS... yabut... can we be sure they would still allow Peetee "Airshow" MacKay to "repel" those Russian bears?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 yabut... can we be sure they would still allow Peetee "Airshow" MacKay to "repel" those Russian bears?... Ummmm, tough question! Probably the BEST way to find out is to have a COMPETITION among ALL the available "suitable" airframes, the BALANCE that against/with what the MANUFACTURERS of those airframes have to OFFER Canada to PICK THEM over the COMPETITION... Although, when everything is said and done, I'm thinking, the NEW F-18e/f(G) SUPER HORNET will be quite capable of doing airshows and catching a few BEARS... Making WINNIPEG (and some other places in Canada) a manufacturing/maintenance centre for F-18s (for ALL versions world wide) has an ESPECIALLY nice aspect to it don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 Probably the BEST way to find out is to have a COMPETITION among ALL the available "suitable" airframes, the BALANCE that against/with what the MANUFACTURERS of those airframes have to OFFER Canada to PICK THEM over the COMPETITION... what the!!! A free and open competition... I don't know... I don't know - is there time given the stated Harper Government™ urgency? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no1ninja Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) MiG-21s have been shot down in droves. See: Viet-Nam & numerous Arab/Israeli wars. I wasn't saying that we should get MiG's, just making fun of the volume discount of the f35s. If we tripled or quadrupled our order, we could sell them to countries that could not afford to do so hence further reducing our margin. Canada maybe can do some "chopping" on the global corner, LOL. To support its habit. --- "Yo yo yo, I got these f35's man, I got the best deal.." "bro, I can get them from the source for much cheaper" (minutes later) "Yo what the hell, I thought you said the more I buy the smaller the development costs, but Angola just told us they can get a few units for cheaper than we got in volume." "Bro, its the times, the development costs have been already paid for. Thanks." Edited March 13, 2011 by no1ninja Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWiz Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 what the!!! A free and open competition... I don't know... I don't know - is there time given the stated Harper Government™ urgency? WOW! ANOTHER tough question... Perhaps the BEST way for me to answer that one is, YES (and no), there is plenty of TIME, there has to be considering that the INITIAL "testing" faze (SDD) for the current "purchase" of F-35s won't be completed until 2016 AT THE EARLIEST now, with PERFORMANCE and AIR WORTHINESS TESTING thereafter, "production" of the F-35 probably won't START until MAYBE 2018 and Canada won't see it's first "new" planes until 2019/2020 at which point "hindsight" may be all that we see of the plane anyway... Of course to START a COMPETETION at that point may be a bit TOO LATE to be of HELP to Canada's aging CF-18s, but, hey, what Harper wants, Harper gets, including his OWN country... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 Perhaps the BEST way for me to answer that one is, YES (and no), there is plenty of TIME, there has to be considering that the INITIAL "testing" faze (SDD) for the current "purchase" of F-35s won't be completed until 2016 AT THE EARLIEST now, with PERFORMANCE and AIR WORTHINESS TESTING thereafter, "production" of the F-35 probably won't START until MAYBE 2018 and Canada won't see it's first "new" planes until 2019/2020 at which point "hindsight" may be all that we see of the plane anyway... ok, ok... let me see if I have it so far. There is time... for a free and open competition. now, I was a bit reticent in not commenting on your earlier suggestion concerning home-grown manufacturing/maintenance centers. That reads considerably more opportunistic than the false Harper Government™ assurances that avenues existed for Canadian companies to reap brazillions worth of supply contracts. I emphasize 'false' since it's now been shown that in 2006 the Harper Government™ did away with the requirement for guaranteed reinvestment, leaving no job guarantees. So, again, with time... and a free and open competition... we could actually leverage that competition to ensure, to guarantee, reinvestment/job opportunities in your described home-grown manufacturing/maintenance centers. Did I get that right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted March 13, 2011 Report Share Posted March 13, 2011 (edited) ...Making WINNIPEG (and some other places in Canada) a manufacturing/maintenance centre for F-18s (for ALL versions world wide) has an ESPECIALLY nice aspect to it don't you think? Yes...the AMERICAN contractors would be happy to continue taking your maintenance dollars in Winnipeg. That's what happens when you buy AMERICAN kit. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/cf-18-maintenance-contract-awarded-to-calgarys-harris-canada-inc/article1760833/ Edited March 13, 2011 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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