To the Tea Party: Keep Your Hands Off of German History

[Michael Hardner]

So, we're saying that using hyperbole to compare current political parties to fascists is unreasonable ?

I agree, and I won't do that.

Most of this thread, though, seems to be finger-pointing at extremists at the other side who do. In this case, the argument becomes "the other side exaggerates" ... but it's based on fringe dwellers on the other side.

Of course, the debate off these boards is unreasonable. I'd prefer it if people called out the unreasonable elements on their own side: it's likely more effective to tone down the rhetoric that way.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Most of this thread, though, seems to be finger-pointing at extremists at the other side who do. In this case, the argument becomes "the other side exaggerates" ... but it's based on fringe dwellers on the other side.

So why are "fringe dwellers" on one side less significant than dwellers on the other side? Dismissing MoveOn.org is an example of such selective reasoning.

[Michael Hardner]

So why are "fringe dwellers" on one side less significant than dwellers on the other side? Dismissing MoveOn.org is an example of such selective reasoning.

I don't think they are less significant. Calling Bush a fascist is ridiculous.

[M.Dancer]

I remember seven years ago when a woman on TV compared President Bush and the invasion of Iraq to the Holocaust. Sheer comedy!

I remember 20 or so years ago Zero Mostel compared Moishe's chicken liver spread to the holocaust...he said it killed more Jews than Hitler..

[nicky10013]

I don't think they are less significant. Calling Bush a fascist is ridiculous.

I think both are equally ridiculous, but the people doing it today have a much, much larger audience.

[Moonlight Graham]

Bickering if liberals or conservatives use Nazi comparisons is ridiculous. People from both sides do it.

Somebody dropping Nazi/Hitler/Fascist comparisons must occur within several posts a day on this forum. It is just for shock and shows little historical knowledge.

ie: People referring to Harper (and his controlling behaviours) as a "fascist" shows me they know little of what fascism entails. Instead of dropping the "fascist" bomb for super-scary effect, they should use the term "authoritarian", which would be much more accurate in what they are trying to describe.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Somebody dropping Nazi/Hitler/Fascist comparisons must occur within several posts a day on this forum. It is just for shock and shows little historical knowledge.

Agreed, but I reject the original notion that Hitler's Germany wins first place for darkest days in human history and deserves special consideration (i.e. "hands off"). Germany has yet to reconcile its role in the whole affair, and this is just more of their baggage.

[Oleg Bach]

Great....more German arrogance...."worst in human history"...no wonder the rest of Europe hates them!

No one in their right mind enjoys or finds the classic German mind set attractive. I really don't understand how such a bitter and cold race came into existance...must have started with one nasty son of a bitch breeding with another nasty creature...some imagine that Germans' have changed..that they no longer harbour quaint thoughts of National Socialism and world domination..As mentioned before - the EU is Germany's dream come true..and now that dream faulters and fades...pride before a fall I suppose.

[maple_leafs182]

No one in their right mind enjoys or finds the classic German mind set attractive. I really don't understand how such a bitter and cold race came into existance...must have started with one nasty son of a bitch breeding with another nasty creature...some imagine that Germans' have changed..that they no longer harbour quaint thoughts of National Socialism and world domination..As mentioned before - the EU is Germany's dream come true..and now that dream faulters and fades...pride before a fall I suppose.

Hitler used fear and nationalism very well in order to control the German people.

Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death. - Adolf Hitler

Neoconservatives in America are doing the exact same thing.

If fascism is the merger of state and corporate powers, by that definition America is fascist. The war in Iraq wasn't a war by the people, it was a war by and for special interest groups.

I think there is the possibility of martial law occurring in America in the next few years. As the economy continues to deteriorate, more and more social unrest will occur, this could lead to food riots and all sorts of other problems.

[bush_cheney2004]

Neoconservatives in America are doing the exact same thing.

Nonsense, as "Neoconservatives" do not control a single branch of federal government. So scared!

I think there is the possibility of martial law occurring in America in the next few years. As the economy continues to deteriorate, more and more social unrest will occur, this could lead to food riots and all sorts of other problems.

Yep...just visit InfoWars.com

[ToadBrother]

Yep...American policies were fascist under Bush, but the exact same policies are not labeled as such under Obama.

That's because the word has lost all meaning. At one time it described a set of related political-economic systems, now it pretty much describes anything someone doesn't like.

[ToadBrother]

Agreed, but I reject the original notion that Hitler's Germany wins first place for darkest days in human history and deserves special consideration (i.e. "hands off"). Germany has yet to reconcile its role in the whole affair, and this is just more of their baggage.

It's a competition, but I think probably Nazi Germany tops the list, with Stalinist Russia coming in there, too. But it's always a tough competition. Where do you put guys like Mao and Pol Pot? What about the Turks and their completely unresolved attitude towards what they did to hundreds of thousands of ethnic Armenians, or the Japs and their inability to admit the kind of nasty things they were up to in Manchuria, occupied China and Korea?

Nazi Germany wins because the whole thing was different than Stalin's purges or Mao's tyrannical incompetence. Hitler and his lieutenants fashioned an entire branch of government dedicated towards killing every Jew within Germany's grasp. It wasn't just military goons with secret orders to kill or starve, or cowardly functionaries unwilling to tell their superiors the truth, it was an orderly, bureaucratic system of mass murder, quite different from the chaotic purges and exiles that had marked European attacks on its Jewry over the previous millennium.

Edited October 25, 2010 by ToadBrother

[nicky10013]

Agreed, but I reject the original notion that Hitler's Germany wins first place for darkest days in human history and deserves special consideration (i.e. "hands off"). Germany has yet to reconcile its role in the whole affair, and this is just more of their baggage.

This is patently false. German school kids learn throughout their school career about the holocaust. It's mandated they go to camps to learn. The German government not only has set up many memorials to the holocaust (I've seen many of them) but have also offered reparations to victims for years. The government actively seeks to promote and build the Jewish community through programmes and immigration. They continue to persecute suspected war criminals. A few mini-series in the 80s came out regarding the holocaust. They were the most watched in Germany. Germany more than any other country knows it's own history both good and bad. They deal with it every day. They're certainly dealing with it better than the US has ever dealt with it's legacy of slavery.

As for the notion that Germany wins first place in the "darkest days of humanity" bit, that's subjective. It's one of the darkest, however, and in my opinion ALL of these examples should be hands off. That being said I still find Hitler's crimes to be the worst. A lot of people claim Stalin these days or Mao, but numbers of dead don't tell the entire story. Stalin and Mao were beyond repressive, but the people their terror apparatus targeted were general non-supporters of the regime to spread fear and compliance. It was done out of paranoia and like any other authoritarian government, to keep themselves in power. Hitler not only did this, he also specifically targeted groups for outright extinction, something only few governments have ever done, and none have carried out as thoroughly as the Nazis. They industrialized death. I was at Auschwitz on a learning type of trip. We had a professor along with us by the name of Robert Jan Van Pelt, the world's foremost expert on the camp. Interestingly enough, he's a professor of architecture at the University of Waterloo (I believe). He had a distinctly architectural take on the camp. He said that the buildings that made up the crematoria there represented the absolute lowest point humanity could ever sink to because the buildings had no other purpose than to murder thousands of human beings at a time and to dispose of them simultaneously. It was done out of pure hate for a selected amount of races. Despite claims by Ukranians (they may very well be right) there are no documents to prove that the same kind of hate ever permeated out of the USSR or China the way it did in Germany. To me, that makes it worse. Even if we do want to compare numbers, Stalin killed roughly 20-30 million over the space of 20 years. Hitler killed 11 million in 4 years as mass murder didn't really start occuring until the invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941.

Then again you could argue the fact that they targeted everyone made the Russians or the Chinese worse due to the fact that it blanketed society and didn't make any distinctions.

Whatever column you fall into, these examples shouldn't be used by anyone.

[bush_cheney2004]

....They're certainly dealing with it better than the US has ever dealt with it's legacy of slavery.

Poppycock....if so much better, then why is it still an issue? Slavery in America (and Canada) was dealt with in the prior century, with civil rights actions quickly following the war(s) with Germany. Canada has dark days just like the Americans ( for Asians, Natives, Ukrainians, Acadians, etc.), but only an apologist for Germany would equate or elevate reconciliation.

Whatever column you fall into, these examples shouldn't be used by anyone.

I don't fall into any "column"....I'll leave that game to you and the Germans.

[nicky10013]

Poppycock....if so much better, then why is it still an issue? Slavery in America (and Canada) was dealt with in the prior century, with civil rights actions quickly following the war(s) with Germany. Canada has dark days just like the Americans ( for Asians, Natives, Ukrainians, Acadians, etc.), but only an apologist for Germany would equate or elevate reconciliation.

Of course we do. I don't deny that. You do. Poppycock, as you put it. I find it hilariously hypocritical that an American regarding German history can accuse Germans and the German Government of not reconciling their history when the US has actively sought to deny their own. So, with your penchant of bringing up Canadian history in inappropriate situations, I thought I'd do the same.

I also didn't mean to equate German crimes with American ones, just with the way that the countries have dealt with them, which despite what occured, tend to be similar in nature. Even after the abolishment of slavery, there was a long line of official discrimination that didn't officially end until 1965. It continues on unofficially to this day. Congress only apoligzed for slavery last June and no reparations have been made available. Contrast that with all that the Germans have done that I've posted above. Perhaps I'm just being mean, perhaps you simply don't know what the German government does is reconciliation because the US has such a shameful record on it.

I don't fall into any "column"....I'll leave that game to you and the Germans.

Of course not. A familiar pattern. When you can't find a point to counter with or a clever pun that deflects away from the fact that you're too ignorant to answer, you don't answer at all.

[bush_cheney2004]

Of course we do. I don't deny that. You do. Poppycock, as you put it. I find it hilariously hypocritical that an American regarding German history can accuse Germans and the German Government of not reconciling their history when the US has actively sought to deny their own. So, with your penchant of bringing up Canadian history in inappropriate situations, I thought I'd do the same.

That's fine by me...it's part of the game. My job it to point out Canada's warts whenever you do the same for America. It's fun!

....Contrast that with all that the Germans have done that I've posted above. Perhaps I'm just being mean, perhaps you simply don't know what the German government does is reconciliation because the US has such a shameful record on it.

The Americans are far better for not paying slavery reparations. Canada followed the Americans when it came time for apologies and compensation for Japanese interned during WW2. Germany can never pay enough, and they are damned forever...not so the Americans or Canadians.

Of course not. A familiar pattern. When you can't find a point to counter with or a clever pun that deflects away from the fact that you're too ignorant to answer, you don't answer at all.

I countered quite well, refusing to play your apologist game....or judgement by yearly body count or genocidal density function. What a jerk.

Edited October 25, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[nicky10013]

I countered quite well, refusing to play your apologist game....or judgement by yearly body count or genocidal density function. What a jerk.

Saying that they're doing at least something isn't being an apologist. It's just being realistic. We can argue whether or not they're doing enough, but you argued they were doing nothing at all which is just not true. Saying that the US doesn't need to do anything and that the Germans can't do enough is just hubris.

[bush_cheney2004]

Saying that they're doing at least something isn't being an apologist. It's just being realistic. We can argue whether or not they're doing enough, but you argued they were doing nothing at all which is just not true. Saying that the US doesn't need to do anything and that the Germans can't do enough is just hubris.

I said neither of those things...you are talking to yourself (again). Germany (and you apparently) have the guilt trip, not the Americans (or Canadians). Germany did not fight a civil war to defeat Nazism. Somebody else had to do that for them. That is the difference you don't seem to understand. The Americans and Canadians fixed it themselves.

[nicky10013]

I said neither of those things...you are talking to yourself (again). Germany (and you apparently) have the guilt trip, not the Americans (or Canadians). Germany did not fight a civil war to defeat Nazism. Somebody else had to do that for them. That is the difference you don't seem to understand. The Americans and Canadians fixed it themselves.

Funny, I remember a discussion taking place on this forum where some argued that the US didn't fight a civil war to defeat slavery either.

[bush_cheney2004]

Funny, I remember a discussion taking place on this forum where some argued that the US didn't fight a civil war to defeat slavery either.

Correct...but slave or free states were at the heart of the war to save the union....and hence slavery a pivotal issue. The Republican party was born from the abolitionist movement.

Germany is forever damned because it failed to engage itself in this manner, as if it was powerless to do so. Now it wants to preserve that perception by criticizing any references to that period. To hell with that....now the world makes "Downfall" video jokes on YouTube.

Germany's armed forces are still limited by treaty.

Edited October 25, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[ToadBrother]

Correct...but slave or free states were at the heart of the war to save the union....and hence slavery a pivotal issue. The Republican party was born from the abolitionist movement.

While slavery wasn't the only issue, it's pretty clear that it was the paramount issue, the one that most in the North could rally around.

Germany is forever damned because it failed to engage itself in this manner, as if it was powerless to do so. Now it wants to preserve that perception by criticizing any references to that period. To hell with that....now the world makes "Downfall" video jokes on YouTube.

I have to agree with you. The US and Canada have been able to rectify their past sins to one extent or another, even the worst sins like slavery or abuse of Native Americans. The US and Canada were both founded, in differing ways and perhaps with differing accent marks, on the idea of responsible government, of government ultimately answerable to the people. Neither the Founding Fathers or the Fathers of Confederation were so naive as to believe that the governments they were creating would always do the right thing, but they believed that a democratic government was self-rectifying.

Beyond that, comparing Bush to Hitler is absurd and, in a way, immoral. I have no patience for Bush supporters, mind you. I think the man was a half-witted incompetent, but the Presidency has survived such individuals before. But Congress was still lost to the Republicans in 2006, there were still elections in 2008. No one was seeking out constitutional changes to give Bush the presidency in perpetuity. Capitol Hill wasn't burned down and the Democrats blamed for it. No large group of people was being marched off to prison camps, only a rather small number of people may, by very liberal (pun intended) interpretations of domestic and international law could say that even most of these guys were somehow being robbed of their liberties. The system is built in such a way that a Hitler could never happen, because someone like Hitler would be seeking to wipe out all the checks and balances, and if nothing else, the enlightened (or otherwise) self-interest of legislative and judiciary branches wouldn't allow for an Enabling Act.

[nicky10013]

I have to agree with you. The US and Canada have been able to rectify their past sins to one extent or another, even the worst sins like slavery or abuse of Native Americans.

I completely disagree. There's a reason why unemployment, crime, acoholism, drug abuse, poverty are rampant in native and black communities. We haven't owned up to it. In the US, they passed the Civil Rights movement but the people of the south had to all of the heavy lifting themselves. Even then, the US only passed the Civil Rights Act because Kennedy was assassinated and it was his baby. In the Civil War, the Union swept in, freed them, but did nothing else. For decades the US allowed Jim Crow laws to pass effectively stripping rights away from freed slaves. As for Canada, we've done absolutely nothing regarding our native population. Just as with the Americans, we've done nothing but apologize only a couple of years ago. It's a terrible record.

In Germany Jewish culture has bounced back. It will never be the size it once was, but it's doing markedly better after being stripped of everything only 60 years ago. In some cases here, we've had over 200 and it's still a blight. We should stop associating the level of the crime (which I've already said is the worst in history, and now I'm being called an apologist, as usual, BC with the one track mind), with the level of response. Germany has done much better than we have. That's not a judgement on what happened to need the response, just the level of response.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Germany has done much better than we have. That's not a judgement on what happened to need the response, just the level of response.

Germany has a long way to go for many other ethnic groups...apologising for the obvious isn't good enough:

Germany has half a million people of African descent and 3 million people of Turkish descent. Many of them say they are ignored or treated like foreigners, even though their families may have lived in Germany for generations. There is no national debate on racism. To paraphrase one Afro-German: White Germans do not perceive themselves as racist. They act as if there are no other races in Germany. They perceive Germany as a monoracial country and conclude, "We can't be racist." Another observer says, "The German concept of identity is based on exclusion."

After taking time out to fix Germany's "little problem", it's not just about "Jews bouncing back" nicely. The world has moved on.

[Moonlight Graham]

You wanna call someone a "fascist" please actually call them what you really mean: totalitarian. A big difference between fascism and totalitarianism.

As for "Islamofascism", i dont even know what the heck that's even supposed to mean.

[nicky10013]

Germany has a long way to go for many other ethnic groups...apologising for the obvious isn't good enough:

Germany has half a million people of African descent and 3 million people of Turkish descent. Many of them say they are ignored or treated like foreigners, even though their families may have lived in Germany for generations. There is no national debate on racism. To paraphrase one Afro-German: White Germans do not perceive themselves as racist. They act as if there are no other races in Germany. They perceive Germany as a monoracial country and conclude, "We can't be racist." Another observer says, "The German concept of identity is based on exclusion."

After taking time out to fix Germany's "little problem", it's not just about "Jews bouncing back" nicely. The world has moved on.

So tell me, what genocide or slavery was imposed on the Turks by Germans in the past 20-30 years? Oh yeah, that's right, the Turks have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. Keep deflecting, you may think it hides your ignorance, however, it only highlights it.