Myata vs. the Westminster System

[ToadBrother]

Since Myata has now basically said that I and g_bambino just type a lot and don't answer his/her questions, I think I'd like to find out what the audience at home thinks.

Addendum: As per Michael Hardner's suggestion, here's a link to Myata's stunningly brilliant reply to a long series of posts that g_bambino and myself have made:

No volume doesn't count as an answer to specific questions. Gotta try better.

Edited October 14, 2010 by ToadBrother

[eyeball]

I think Myata is more interested in debating or learning about why and how the Westminster system of government needs to change.

Clearly you and g_bambino are quite happy to stick your fingers in your ears and say la la la to any of that. How you still manage to type as much as you do with your fingers otherwise engaged is a bit of a mystery.

Why don't you just type la la la and leave it at that?

[Michael Hardner]

Or a link to the thread in question.

In any case, this isn't about politics, it's about poster vs. poster... not that there's anything wrong with that.

[ToadBrother]

I think Myata is more interested in debating or learning about why and how the Westminster system of government needs to change.

No, I don't think he is.

Clearly you and g_bambino are quite happy to stick your fingers in your ears and say la la la to any of that. How you still manage to type as much as you do with your fingers otherwise engaged is a bit of a mystery.

Why don't you just type la la la and leave it at that?

I never said I was happy with the system the way it is. I can think of any number of improvements. But that something needs improving doesn't necessarily mean it's malfunctioning either, nor does it mean that it's always possible to get the improvements that one wants.

But who am I talking to? The guy who thinks there should be a commission that decides who is a suitable candidate to run for elected office. Compared to you, myata is a fountain of wisdom.

[ToadBrother]

Or a link to the thread in question.

Good point

[eyeball]

Or a link to the thread in question.

But who am I talking to? The guy who thinks there should be a commission that decides who is a suitable candidate to run for elected office. Compared to you, myata is a fountain of wisdom.

Say what?

Good point

...tap, tap, tap...

[Michael Hardner]

..tap tap...

I absolutely love being called upon to judge on something. Who else likes this ? Oleg, I'll bet.

[August1991]

I think that there is a rule that forbids using another poster's name in a thread title and so I have reported this thread to the moderators.

----

As to the poll question, I am confused.

I am a confirmed republican who believes that Canada should become a federal republic. I'm quite comfortable with a parliamentary system of government. I know that bambino is a monarchist who, IME, has always argued intelligently and correctly.

A better thread title, and a link, would be helpful to overcome my confusion. (Hint to ToadBrother: Edit the OP.)

Edited October 15, 2010 by August1991

[madmax]

I am a confirmed republican who believes that Canada should become a federal republic.

Wow, that really sucks.

I'm quite comfortable with a parliamentary system of government.

Followed by a tentative sense of relief

I know that bambino is a monarchist who, IME, has always argued intelligently and correctly.

As far as I know, ditto.

A better thread title, and a link, would be helpful to overcome my confusion. (Hint to ToadBrother: Edit the OP.)

Same here, I was very confused by the Thread Title.

[g_bambino]

Clearly you and g_bambino are quite happy to stick your fingers in your ears and say la la la to any of that.

Ah, yes; anyone who disagrees with your proposed changes is obviously totally adverse to change. How (typically) arrogant of you.

My feeling is that there's nothing at all wrong with change; quite the opposite, actually. But change for the sake of change is idiotic. Necessity is normally the catalyst for change, either through evolution or revolution. If, in either case, it's going to affect many people, it better have either the implicit or explicit approval of the definite majority of those who'll potentially be affected.

[M.Dancer]

I think that there is a rule that forbids using another poster's name in a thread title and so I have reported this thread to the moderators.

There is a poster named Westminster?

Now os this one of the ad hoc rules that are applied, whenever the mod feels like it or a written rule?

[eyeball]

Ah, yes; anyone who disagrees with your proposed changes is obviously totally adverse to change. How (typically) arrogant of you.

My feeling is that there's nothing at all wrong with change; quite the opposite, actually. But change for the sake of change is idiotic.

How typically ignorant of you to say that.

I have gone at length to describe how the mismanagement of our fishery in BC has prompted many serious people in communities up and down the coast to reform and change how we manage our fisheries. Years of ongoing intransigent ineptitude from DFO has led many to conclude, including me, that fundamental changes to the way our country is governed are the only thing that will ever achieve that. Apparently the majority of Canadians still support the idea that Ottawa and DFO should be left to manage things the way they see fit.

Necessity is normally the catalyst for change, either through evolution or revolution. If, in either case, it's going to affect many people, it better have either the implicit or explicit approval of the definite majority of those who'll potentially be affected.

I'm afraid I have a hard time believing you when you say you value change. Perhaps it's just the pace at which change takes place that's at issue. I notice you're only 35, perhaps in time you'll experience something similar. If you'd like some advice, I'd avoid getting into any industry that depends on honest transparent government management. That said perhaps you work for the government and everything is just aces from your perspective.

We just had the biggest salmon run in history swim past what was once the third biggest fishing port in BC and not a single fish was caught or landed here. I place most of the blame for that on our Westminster system of government.

[Michael Hardner]

This sounds like an interesting debate, but without that link some of us are standing in the hallways eavesdropping on things we don't understand.

But if I may... the way we are governed changes with time, with technology, as everything does. Communications and best practices around delivery of services has changed drastically over the past 35 years, yet the way government works has not.

I think it's clear that government hasn't kept up, but it's hard to prove whether it is or not.

The biggest problem I have with change, though, is that people usually suggest changes that are likely too big (proportional representation, outlawing parties, online voting) or too small (charging a fine if you don't vote maybe) to address the problem.

First, you get everyone to list their problems, then look at solutions to those problems, and get wise people to select some to try.

I would also submit that this process needs to happen without mass/disorganized consultation, but with some consultation with the public, and it needs to be guided by principled leaders.

[g_bambino]

How typically ignorant of you to say that.

I have gone at length to describe how the mismanagement of our fishery in BC has prompted many serious people in communities up and down the coast to reform and change how we manage our fisheries.

How ignorant of you: I've never discussed fisheries with you.

I'm afraid I have a hard time believing you when you say you value change. Perhaps it's just the pace at which change takes place that's at issue. I notice you're only 35, perhaps in time you'll experience something similar. If you'd like some advice, I'd avoid getting into any industry that depends on honest transparent government management. That said perhaps you work for the government and everything is just aces from your perspective.

Again, you've formed an opinion of me based on conversations we never had. The pace of change, to me, is dictated by need and scale. In this thread, the topic was changes to our very form of government, not the management of fisheries. I don't see a need for quick, haphazard changes to the former, but I've never spoken on the latter, so you've only assumed that what I expect for one I also expect for the other.

[eyeball]

How ignorant of you: I've never discussed fisheries with you.

Feel free to search for the many discussions I've had with others then.

Again, you've formed an opinion of me based on conversations we never had. The pace of change, to me, is dictated by need and scale. In this thread, the topic was changes to our very form of government, not the management of fisheries. I don't see a need for quick, haphazard changes to the former, but I've never spoken on the latter, so you've only assumed that what I expect for one I also expect for the other.

I don't see a need for any quick or haphazard changes to how we're governed either, I do however see the need to start making some of the changes that have been suggested, discussed and put off for decades now, especially any that relate to making government more transparent, honest and accountable. I think I've heard enough of your thoughts and seen the deep agreement you share with others I have discussed fisheries with that it's safe assume you'd be perfectly happy to continue letting the government keep operating and behaving just as it has been.

I had faith in the institution of government once but that faith is all but gone now. I'm probably only one or two meetings away from resigning from the area planning committee I've been on for nearly 30 years now. It seems it's just a force of habit and the process junkie in me that's keeping me involved at this point.

It's really hard to give a shit anymore. They say that happens when you get older. I sure as hell don't see myself ever getting more conservative in my dotage though - I don't know where the hell that notion ever came from. I'm into the latter half of my life now and if anything my frustration and cynicism has probably turned me into an anarchist.

[myata]

Was about to resolve the intrigue and respond to Q2 for myself, but unfortunately the poll is designed in a way that requires to vote on both questions which is obviously not possible. Anyways here it goes:

3....

2..

1.

and finally:

here, wait a sec,

OK: NO!

No I'm not interested in learning more about outdated and convoluted system that so obviously does not satisfy the needs of an advanced democratic society. Which does not prevent me from seeing (and reporting) the obvious flaws in it. See, it's like an old broken shoe: you know when it's broken because it's no longer satisfying your needs. And you dont' really need to study the broken shoe to improve your condition.

[bloodyminded]

There is a poster named Westminster?

Again with your illiteracy?

[g_bambino]

I'm not interested in learning more about outdated and convoluted system that so obviously does not satisfy the needs of an advanced democratic society.

Myata, judge of governments and divinely enlightened saviour of the idiotic mass, has spoken.

[sp]

Edited October 15, 2010 by g_bambino

[myata]

Well, if one had to choose (between judging and blindly following).. thanks for the complement!

[g_bambino]

Well, if one had to choose (between judging and blindly following).. thanks for the complement!

Says the guy who presumes to talk on everyone's behalf.

[ToadBrother]

Was about to resolve the intrigue and respond to Q2 for myself, but unfortunately the poll is designed in a way that requires to vote on both questions which is obviously not possible. Anyways here it goes:

3....

2..

1.

and finally:

here, wait a sec,

OK: NO!

No I'm not interested in learning more about outdated and convoluted system that so obviously does not satisfy the needs of an advanced democratic society. Which does not prevent me from seeing (and reporting) the obvious flaws in it. See, it's like an old broken shoe: you know when it's broken because it's no longer satisfying your needs. And you dont' really need to study the broken shoe to improve your condition.

It was because you basically stopped listening, declared I hadn't answered your questions, and left it at that.

But thank you for admitting, in your own special way, of your pride in your ignorance.

[myata]

But thank you for admitting, in your own special way, of your pride in your ignorance.

Apologies but you misread (again). I'm not taking pride in anything, just find it inefficient use of my time. In plain words, useless. Who cares how many great people wore these pants if there is an obvious hole - on the funny place. But I guess it depends.

All things cannot be done and all things can't be known. You do what you can - if you actually do something, ie., moving, going, changing.

[g_bambino]

I'm not taking pride in anything, just find it inefficient use of my time. In plain words, useless.

You have such pride in your ignorance you protect it at any cost. The only thing that ended up useless was your effort to convince others that your ignorance-fed ideas had one iota of merit.

[g_bambino]

I know that bambino is a monarchist who, IME, has always argued intelligently and correctly.

Well, thank you. It was your thread on a republic that attracted me to this message board in the first place (some may curse you for that!). But, I can't have argued too terribly well, given that you still express republican desires. I like to think I've at least planted an irritating seed in your mind that's been growing and choking out those misguided anti-monarchist sentiments. On the other hand, maybe I don't want you to come to the light side; what would Superman's life be without Lex Luthor, after all?

[Charles Anthony]

I think that there is a rule that forbids using another poster's name in a thread title and so I have reported this thread to the moderators.

Thanks for doing so. Sorry for not getting to this promptly. Things have been busy lately on my end.

A better thread title, and a link, would be helpful to overcome my confusion. (Hint to ToadBrother: Edit the OP.)

There are so many things wrong with the OP. I do not know where to start!

This thread is closed until the Opening Poster edits both the title and the OP to make it all more fitting for the MLW forum. Hints to ToadBrother:

#1 -- Get your message across or start your debate without referring to any member specifically.

#2 -- If you can not do #1 then you should not be doing whatever it is that you want to do.

#3 -- include your links and references in your OP

Send me a PM when you are done. I will check it and open the thread if it is up to snuff.