bloodyminded Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) Why wouldn't you want your daughter joining the Army ? And what are your reasons for not wanting her to enter into this profession. I suspect that the reasons aren't the same. I don't know what they are, but I suspect that they're aren't the same - for you and me both. None of my statements here, by the way, are about me objecting to this ruling. I think it's a good ruling, but still I wish there were a way we could collectively think about this other than legal/illegal right now. I understand what you're saying. Prostitution is about the last profession I'd want my daughters to enter into. As for currently legal professions--pornography is about the last profession I'd wish to see them in. However, these are not clearly-delineated reasons to oppose their legality. I personally think pornography--or, to be more specific, a growing trend in certain types of pornography--is arguably not a very good thing, and possibly even damaging on some level. (Though it's a highly complex matter, and I'm not married to my opinion here.) However, I would consider fighting for the right to produce and consume porn a perfectly noble fight. Prostitution raises some different issues, but I still agree with the folks here who think the illegalization of it is unreasonable...and more dangerous to the prostitutes themselves. Edited September 28, 2010 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just saying there is a hell of a long way between a judge saying prostitution is not illegal and dancing in the streets crying hookers will now live happily ever after. We'll just have to see. Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 The devil is in the details. There are a couple models. As we all know, the Amsterdam model is to center the activity into one district. Paris also has a red light district, though whether activity in the form of brothels is allowed outside of that area I'm not too sure. Then there's Germany where it's a very decentralized type of system. It's legal, but there isn't a red light district and brothels aren't really advertised, at least that I could see when I was in Berlin last year, though they do exist. It seems to me that a small district where activity can be controlled and well policed is the best solution. I could very well be wrong, but it seems to me that is the best answer. Of course it has to be about the safety of women, and that's where the main part of the debate has to rest. However, this decision also has other benefits. If it can be made more safe, localized and commercialised, a red light district could bring in a LOT of tourism as it does in Amsterdam. Amsterdam has had a bit of change, a new council decided to change the rules and reduce the numbers for some reason, the only difference I could detect on my last "window shopping" trip was there were fewer in the old district but the window ladies had merely moved over a few blocks...and these aren't to be confused with the brothels/full entertainment clubs, which I've never seen so I assume are more discreet.....and no street walkers...I was in my hotel for two days before my kids noticed the pretty ladies sitting in the windows by the hotel(not in the red-light district)...a bit surreal for me sitting on a bench outside of "cafe" smoking pot with pretty ladies sitting in the window across the road, just down the street from the police station...very much a live and let live society... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 None of my statements here, by the way, are about me objecting to this ruling. I think it's a good ruling, but still I wish there were a way we could collectively think about this other than legal/illegal right now. I am surprised MH. I can only think that 'emotion' is what is left out of the discussion, as well it should Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Amsterdam has had a bit of change, a new council decided to change the rules and reduce the numbers for some reason, the only difference I could detect on my last "window shopping" trip was there were fewer in the old district but the window ladies had merely moved over a few blocks...and these aren't to be confused with the brothels/full entertainment clubs, which I've never seen so I assume are more discreet.....and no street walkers... I was in my hotel for two days before my kids noticed the pretty ladies sitting in the windows by the hotel(not in the red-light district)...a bit surreal for me sitting on a bench outside of "cafe" smoking pot with pretty ladies sitting in the window across the road, just down the street from the police station...very much a live and let live society... I confess, the only time I've spent in Amsterdam was on a layover between Warsaw and Toronto. We landed in Amsterdam at about 8am and our plane took off for Toronto at 1pm, so we went into the downtown for a couple of hours. At 9 oclock in the morning, the window ladies don't look very happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 I don't want my daughter getting shot up. But the real point is that once she hits 18, my objections are purely hypothetical. She is not bound to do what I say. If she falls into prostitution, neither my objections or the laws are going to prevent it. If she is going to be a prostitute, beyond all my objections, I would like it to be in as safe an environment as possible, and historically, that has been a bawdy house. one of my brothers worked as the muscle in a bawdy/bootleg house...free room, sex and booze for him and the girls had security... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Let's first see if it's challenged at the Federal court level. Frankly I think it's collapse is inevitable. The Victorian era prostitution laws were pretty hard to justify even 100 years ago, but after the horrors of the Picton trial and the realities of just how vulnerable streetwalkers are, I think that not legalizing bawdy houses is as vile and immoral as a society can get. Bring on the red light districts, bring on the controls, and maybe we might have a chance of keeping more of these women safe, and more ability to possible redirect them out of the sex trade than infrequently locking them and their clients up. Another voice of rationality! Hear, hear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 I understand what you're saying. Prostitution is about the last profession I'd want my daughters to enter into. Not quite, for me, BM! Prostitution would be 2nd to last. Last would be LAWYER! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) I confess, the only time I've spent in Amsterdam was on a layover between Warsaw and Toronto. We landed in Amsterdam at about 8am and our plane took off for Toronto at 1pm, so we went into the downtown for a couple of hours. At 9 oclock in the morning, the window ladies don't look very happy. until my last trip a month ago I had never seen them working in the morning either 9am, not many of them so working days must be their equivalent of the night shift...the ones I passed were pleasant enough with passers by and locals exchanging greetings... Edited September 28, 2010 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Not quite, for me, BM! Prostitution would be 2nd to last. Last would be LAWYER! Six of one, half a dozen of the other.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 until my last trip a month ago I had never seen them working in the morning either 9am, not many of them so working days must be their equivalent of the night shift...the ones I passed were pleasant enough with passers by and locals exchanging greetings... As long as you don't take a picture. I've seen people try and they really don't like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 As long as you don't take a picture. I've seen people try and they really don't like it. Well, sure. They're doing their jobs, and most jobs, frankly, kind of suck. Who wants extra hassle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Let's get it straight - my question is entirely subjective.... Your assessment of the 'hangup' part is apt, I guess. I just don't see it as the same. If I had a daughter, I would not want her to do this for a living. I guess that's a hangup right ? Theres a LOT of legal professions that I dont want my daughter in. But my personal opinion on that does not outweigh the importance of Canada abandoning policies that over-criminalize canadian citizens. We need to shrink the legal/prison system, and this is a good place to start. Also (correct me if Im wrong here), but in order for your position to make sense, it seems like you would have to believe that legalizing prostitution would make it MORE LIKELY for your daughter to become a prostitute, and Im not sure thats the case... in fact it may very well be the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 until my last trip a month ago I had never seen them working in the morning either 9am, not many of them so working days must be their equivalent of the night shift...the ones I passed were pleasant enough with passers by and locals exchanging greetings... Hahaha yeah. It looked like there was a helluva party the night before though. Beer cans everywhere the street sweepers were just getting to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 I am not against legalizing prostitution, however, anyone that thinks this will stop people like Pickton or get the $10 Downtown East-side crack-addicted prostitute into a clean and tidy brothel is completely foolng themselves. It will make it safer for some. Which is good. But don't over-state what this will do.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicky10013 Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 I am not against legalizing prostitution, however, anyone that thinks this will stop people like Pickton or get the $10 Downtown East-side crack-addicted prostitute into a clean and tidy brothel is completely foolng themselves. It will make it safer for some. Which is good. But don't over-state what this will do.... I said this before and I'll say it again. The sex trade will never be safe. We'll also never get rid of it. The best thing we can do is try and make it the safest we can. The most interesting thing is, out of curiosity I've been scanning some newspaper website and some comments and with the exception of maybe one or two, the reception has been uniformly positive. Interesting time to be living in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 I am not against legalizing prostitution, however, anyone that thinks this will stop people like Pickton or get the $10 Downtown East-side crack-addicted prostitute into a clean and tidy brothel is completely foolng themselves. It will make it safer for some. Which is good. But don't over-state what this will do.... Bingo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 I am not against legalizing prostitution, however, anyone that thinks this will stop people like Pickton or get the $10 Downtown East-side crack-addicted prostitute into a clean and tidy brothel is completely foolng themselves. It will make it safer for some. Which is good. But don't over-state what this will do.... True, fair enough. On the other hand, even the fact of some degree of de-stigmatization might have helped in the Pickton case. In other words, if the victims had been middle-class women, Pickton would likely have not gotten away with as many murders. Prostitutes are considered to be less important human beings. (only by class-biased assholes and moral relativists...but there are a lot of those.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGreenthumb Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Right - so then you can give someone the option of prostitution or NO Employment Insurance then... It's not the same. No, that would be FORCING someone to do it which is entirely different. THAT would be pimping, hell that is almost third party rape. You can't coerce someone into giving sexual consent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGreenthumb Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 Let's get it straight - my question is entirely subjective.... Your assessment of the 'hangup' part is apt, I guess. I just don't see it as the same. If I had a daughter, I would not want her to do this for a living. I guess that's a hangup right ? I wouldn't want my daughters to choose that career path either, but neither do I want them washing dishes, or working at mcDonalds. If they choose to go down that path despite my concerns, I certainly do not want my government making it even more dangerous, and putting them at higher risk of coming to physical harm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 I said this before and I'll say it again. The sex trade will never be safe. We'll also never get rid of it. The best thing we can do is try and make it the safest we can. The most interesting thing is, out of curiosity I've been scanning some newspaper website and some comments and with the exception of maybe one or two, the reception has been uniformly positive. Interesting time to be living in Canada. Theres more than just the safety of the street workers at stake here. Theres the massive costs to taxpayers of a policy that not only doesnt fix anything, but makes stuff worse. This is an opportunity to stop our bloated runaway legal system, from perpetrating more moral crimes, and claiming more victims, and save a shitload of money. It will also help with enforcement of more serious crimes, by freeing up a lot of wasted courtroom time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGreenthumb Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 The most interesting thing is, out of curiosity I've been scanning some newspaper website and some comments and with the exception of maybe one or two, the reception has been uniformly positive. Interesting time to be living in Canada. And yet we keep electing socially regressive faith based government. How can Cabnadians seem so socially liberal yet keep ending up with such an anti-personal freedom government? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 We've already seen how even the harshest anti-prostitution laws don't prevent the trade. Making prostitution illegal has done nothing but drive into the alleys, where every psycopath from Jack the Ripper to Robert Picton can take them at their own pleasure. I'd sooner see the government as a pimp than the situation now. We also have to deal with the problem,why these poor girls are out there, I don't think to many do it because they want to. Even with legal places to do business, there will still be girls in the back allys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) I am not against legalizing prostitution, however, anyone that thinks this will stop people like Pickton or get the $10 Downtown East-side crack-addicted prostitute into a clean and tidy brothel is completely foolng themselves. It will make it safer for some. Which is good. But don't over-state what this will do.... changing our drug laws should address that problem...I've stayed in Amsterdam three times in the last ten years and I've never seen or run into a "$10 Downtown East-side crack-addicted prostitute" there, drugs are easily available but so is addiction treatment...when a certified clean quality product is readily available who in their right mind is going to spend time/money on a crack ho? Edited September 28, 2010 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted September 28, 2010 Report Share Posted September 28, 2010 I don't want my daughter getting shot up. But the real point is that once she hits 18, my objections are purely hypothetical. She is not bound to do what I say. If she falls into prostitution, neither my objections or the laws are going to prevent it. If she is going to be a prostitute, beyond all my objections, I would like it to be in as safe an environment as possible, and historically, that has been a bawdy house. If it were 100% safe, or as safe as you could reasonably expect, would you be in favour or not ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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