Ayaan Hirsi Ali , Atheist, Feminist Activist

[wyly]

Well...Theoretically there's nothing wrong with it if one has a death wish...

it's a bit ironic a christian thinking converting muslims is ok...meanwhile how often have we seen people assumedly many of them christians panicking at the thought of the growing muslim populations in western countries...

personally I don't care what either of them believe as long as they leave me alone...

[ToadBrother]

So no matter how one views the Crusades, given your two examples, your answer is 'a loooong time ago;' and therefore it has no bearing on today's world.

Funny, that's not what I said at all.

[Jack Weber]

it's a bit ironic a christian thinking converting muslims is ok...meanwhile how often have we seen people assumedly many of them christians panicking at the thought of the growing muslim populations in western countries...

personally I don't care what either of them believe as long as they leave me alone...

I think you're missing the point...

As a Presbyterian,if I went to Rhiyadh and started to proclaim the Good News,I would be executed...If a Muslim came up to me and tried to convert me here,I might have an interesting conversation with him/her,but I would'nt kill them...

Edited September 16, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Shady]

I think you're missing the point...

As a Presbyterian,if I went to Rhiyadh and started to proclaim the Good News,I would be executed...If a Muslim came up to me and tried to convert me here,I might have an interesting conversation with him/her,but I would'nt kill them...

Same here. I'd probably even take a look at their literature.

[wyly]

I think you're missing the point...

As a Presbyterian,if I went to Rhiyadh and started to proclaim the Good News,I would be executed...If a Muslim came up to me and tried to convert me here,I might have an interesting conversation with him/her,but I would'nt kill them...

didn't miss your point jack, just making an observation...

but as to your point everyone needs to keep things in proper context, laws and culture is different all over the world ultimately there is no right or wrong...

what is a crime in canada things like euthanasia, assisted suicide, open marijuana use is not a crime in the netherlands...attempting to convert people here to christianity is not a crime (just annoying) but it is in some other countries we must accept that and respect the laws and culture of those countries...break the laws in those countries and expect to pay a price for that error...

as always people need to walk in the other persons shoes and see the world as they do before they can understand them...

Edited September 16, 2010 by wyly

[Bonam]

personally I don't care what either of them believe as long as they leave me alone...

Same here. Which is why that I'd rather they not believe in Islam, because Muslims are less likely to leave you alone, especially once they have a majority. While there are Christians out there who will badger you about their beliefs, Christianity as a whole is receding in the West in the face of rising secularism, and has been doing so for centuries. Islam, on the other hand, is far more powerful.

[betsy]

Well...Theoretically there's nothing wrong with it if one has a death wish...

Just to clarify that this proselytizing suggestion will be done in the west....

Death wish? Should we fear this group of Islamofascists that we cannot practice our ow democratic freedom in our own truf?

Speaking of "fear".....one commentator observed that the way Obama made his speech against the Quran-burning campaign - voicing out that this will mean our troops will be endangered - not only hinted that he fear the backlash, but could've also unwittingly enboldened the massive protests that ensued.

Instead of just ignoring this one looney pastor with only 35 congregation members - all these high-ranking officials actually put this guy in the limelight and gave the news more legwork.

I cannot but help compare the reaction of Bush, as shown in the CBC documentary "9/11 State Of Emergency"....when he was shown in the classroom full of children and media while the attacks on WTC was going on. His Chief of Staff leaned in his ear to whisper about the deadly attacks. Bush composure did not change at all....just a slight glint in his eye was all the reaction I saw.

His Chief of Staff who was being interviewed for that documentary explained that he worried about what Bush reaction might be....in front of all the media thaw were in that classroom with him. Any reaction will be plastered on the front news....and definitely it shouldn't give the hint of a panicked president!

[betsy]

deleted. double posting.

Edited September 16, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

Well...Theoretically there's nothing wrong with it if one has a death wish...

Just to clarify that this proselytizing suggestion will be done in the west....

Death wish? Should we fear this group of Islamofascists that we cannot practice our own democratic freedom in our own truf?

Speaking of "fear".....one commentator observed that the way Obama made his speech against the Quran-burning campaign - voicing out that this will mean our troops will be endangered - not only hinted that he fear the backlash, but could've also unwittingly enboldened the massive protests that ensued.

Instead of just ignoring this one looney pastor with only 35 congregation members - all these high-ranking officials actually put this guy in the limelight and gave the news more legwork.

That the president of the US will step in and made a comment such as that is seen by the enemy as "kow-towing"....or fear...that he is weak and can be intimidated.

Isn't terrorism all about intimidation?

I cannot but help compare the reaction of Bush, as shown in the CBC documentary "9/11 State Of Emergency"....when he was shown in the classroom full of children and media while the attacks on WTC was going on. His Chief of Staff leaned in his ear to whisper about the deadly attacks. Bush composure did not change at all....just a slight glint in his eye was all the reaction I saw. I must say it was a cool display of leadership under extreme circumstances....

His Chief of Staff who was being interviewed for that documentary explained that he worried about what Bush reaction might be....in front of all the media that were in that classroom with him. Any reaction will be plastered on the front news....and definitely it shouldn't give the hint of a panicked president!

Edited September 16, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

deleted. double posting.

Edited September 16, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

Wily complained about the "cut-and-paste" I did to show the numbers of countries that practice genital mutilation and that he said I failed to say that it was cultural, not religious.

Fact, that is still being debated...though it is said to be cultural (for mutilation apparently pre-dates Islam)....there are those who say that it is also being done as a religious practice.

I do not debate with questionable opinions that are not backed by anything other than spit. You give your own opinion as you wish....but that's all it's gonna be, your own opinion.

Opinion, in order to be taken seriously, however, will come from those with credible reputations....those that are not known to distort, pull straws out of one's ears or indulge in dishonest discourse.

Ghostacked spoke about the WTC and moderate Muslims. I talked about moderate Muslims in the thread Tareq Fatah in Federal forum...and where I stand in the matter. Moderate Muslims such as Tareq Fatah are saying the Imams have a lot to answer for! Imams equals religion! Hirsi Ali calling for the Christian religion to provide an alternative benign God.

If Gosthack refused to answer and insist to use a senseless excuse not to....what can I say. Then, don't give your answer! Don't worry, be happy! I'll just think you don't have any answer to give.

Should anyone still believe I am a bigot....then believe it and call me a bigot to your hearts' content!

I see where true bigotry lie and it comes from three posters here....against a group of people called Christians.

Edited September 16, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

name='wyly' date='15 September 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1284604547' post='580093']

it's a bit ironic a christian thinking converting muslims is ok...meanwhile how often have we seen people assumedly many of them christians panicking at the thought of the growing muslim populations in western countries...

eh? What do you mean by this?

personally I don't care what either of them believe as long as they leave me alone...

Put a sign on your door. Christians Keep Away!

And I will make it easier for you too. Wily, really, you don't have to answer to my evangelisms....seeing that they seem to aggravate you so. You can Keep Away.

Edited September 17, 2010 by betsy

[GostHacked]

If Gosthack refused to answer and insist to use a senseless excuse not to....what can I say. Then, don't give your answer! Don't worry, be happy! I'll just think you don't have any answer to give.

When you start answering some of the questions you have left alone, then I and others might be more inclined to respond to your questions. It works both ways. I hope this is not how you approach 'every day' issues.

[ToadBrother]

Wily complained about the "cut-and-paste" I did to show the numbers of countries that practice genital mutilation and that he said I failed to say that it was cultural, not religious.

Fact, that is still being debated...though it is said to be cultural (for mutilation apparently pre-dates Islam)....there are those who say that it is also being done as a religious practice.

I'm sure there are many in these areas that do it for religious reasons. But as many Christians have pointed out to me, just because one particular group does something out of claimed religious reasons doesn't mean all of Christianity supports it, or that it can be said to be a aspect of all of Christianity.

Genital mutilation predates Islam, and nowhere in the Qu'ran am I aware of any commandment saying it must be done. It's a cultural practice maintained when the new religion rolled, much like honor killings are in the Indian Subcontinent and in peripheral areas. It's much like how many Christian Indians in Latin America still retain a good many pre-Christian rituals.

I do not debate with questionable opinions that are not backed by anything other than spit. You give your own opinion as you wish....but that's all it's gonna be, your own opinion.

Stating that Islam is responsible for genital mutilation is certainly an opinion. It's a falsehood. In your case, I imagine it's just because you've read it, and because you happen to be in the "Islam is evil" camp, you naturally adopt the claim without the least bit of incredulity, or even some basic research. You're not interested in opinions in general, only in opinions that confirm your prejudices.

YOu should feel lucky that I'm not that way about Christians, otherwise I might think they're all bigotry-spouting ignoramuses.

Should anyone still believe I am a bigot....then believe it and call me a bigot to your hearts' content!

I see where true bigotry lie and it comes from three posters here....against a group of people called Christians.

Oh bullcrap. While I'm sure there are posters here who condemn all of Christianity, I certainly do not, mainly because it's too diverse a group to say much specifically about. But this is the last stand of the bigot, to proclaim themselves somehow hard done by by their critics. You aren't being persecuted and you're not a martyr, so get over yourself.

[Jack Weber]

Just to clarify that this proselytizing suggestion will be done in the west....

Death wish? Should we fear this group of Islamofascists that we cannot practice our ow democratic freedom in our own truf?

Speaking of "fear".....one commentator observed that the way Obama made his speech against the Quran-burning campaign - voicing out that this will mean our troops will be endangered - not only hinted that he fear the backlash, but could've also unwittingly enboldened the massive protests that ensued.

Instead of just ignoring this one looney pastor with only 35 congregation members - all these high-ranking officials actually put this guy in the limelight and gave the news more legwork.

I cannot but help compare the reaction of Bush, as shown in the CBC documentary "9/11 State Of Emergency"....when he was shown in the classroom full of children and media while the attacks on WTC was going on. His Chief of Staff leaned in his ear to whisper about the deadly attacks. Bush composure did not change at all....just a slight glint in his eye was all the reaction I saw.

His Chief of Staff who was being interviewed for that documentary explained that he worried about what Bush reaction might be....in front of all the media thaw were in that classroom with him. Any reaction will be plastered on the front news....and definitely it shouldn't give the hint of a panicked president!

I doubt it will ever be done in the West...The death wish stuff comes from the fact that,for example,in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia,the practice of both Christianity and Judaism is illegal and punishable by death.

As to the Islamofascists getting there way in the West...I suspect if they could forcebly convert people to their version of Islam they would do it,and kill those that would not.I would say though that this is not a terribly different mindset than the one used by Tomas De Torquemada during the Spanish Inquisition.That mindset comes out of there being no viable counterbalance to offset an extreme position from higher authority...

Edited September 16, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Oleg Bach]

FIRST we would have to figure out what Christianity really was - but never became - then we would have to Christianize our own pagan society....before we bother with the Muslims...actually let the Muslims be....they are like bees and a hive and are no threat unless you send money to Saudi Arabia to buy oil - which is used to finance bored Islamic warriors who simply love to kill for sport...or chop of a hand or two - or stone a woman...or torture a dog...or screw and ruin a boy...or knock down a couple of buisness towers in New York...this is what extreme wealth and privledge produce..bored jerks who finance terrorism . It has nothing to do with religion - it is about the super rich...who are looking for a game to play..the biggest game in town has always been hunting..killing....and we supply them the privledge and money every time we transport our fat asses a block to the store when we could walk!

[betsy]

I doubt it will ever be done in the West...The death wish stuff comes from the fact that,for example,in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia,the practice of both Christianity and Judaism is illegal and punishable by death.

As to the Islamofascists getting there way in the West...I suspect if they could forcebly convert people to their version of Islam they would do it,and kill those that would not.I would say though that this is not a terribly different mindset than the one used by Tomas De Torquemada during the Spanish Inquisition.That mindset comes out of there being no viable counterbalance to offset an extreme position from higher authority...

But, do you see how Hirsi Ali envision it though? I guess to sum it up....we bombard the Muslim communities with propaganda (from Christian denominations, from feminist groups and humanist groups), with the government perhaps offering some incentives to make it palatable and easier for Muslims to at least take a look at and consider these "propagandas." We'll really aim for the youth! So we'll add a youth center to the mix.

For every mosque, there'll be a Christian church (and I'd say other religions are welcome to build their churches too), a feminist and humanist support-center, and a youth center nearby. Just treat it like competing businesses targetting a specific market.

Edited September 17, 2010 by betsy

[Melanie_]

But, do you see how Hirsi Ali envision it though? I guess to sum it up....we bombard the Muslim communities with propaganda (from Christian denominations, from feminist groups and humanist groups), with the government perhaps offering some incentives to make it palatable and easier for Muslims to at least take a look at and consider these "propagandas." We'll really aim for the youth! So we'll add a youth center to the mix.

For every mosque, there'll be a Christian church (and I'd say other religions are welcome to build their churches too), a feminist and humanist support-center, and a youth center nearby. Just treat it like competing businesses targetting a specific market.

Betsy, are you really suggesting that the government get involved in promoting one religion over another? That the government start providing incentives for Muslims to consider another religion? We have a seperation of church and state in this country for a reason - that all religions be given equal treatment before the law. And what "other religions" are you prepared to welcome into this scheme? What do you know about their beliefs, and how they compare with the beliefs of Islam?

As for your original post, Hirsi Ali herself has not converted to Christianity. She is an atheist - therefore, she has no credibility in saying Muslims should convert to Christianity.

[ToadBrother]

But, do you see how Hirsi Ali envision it though? I guess to sum it up....we bombard the Muslim communities with propaganda (from Christian denominations, from feminist groups and humanist groups), with the government perhaps offering some incentives to make it palatable and easier for Muslims to at least take a look at and consider these "propagandas." We'll really aim for the youth! So we'll add a youth center to the mix.

For every mosque, there'll be a Christian church (and I'd say other religions are welcome to build their churches too), a feminist and humanist support-center, and a youth center nearby. Just treat it like competing businesses targetting a specific market.

I see the real motive. To get state support back for your Church. My tax dollars being used to promote your religion. And the Enlightenment will put one foot in the grave.

[wyly]

I see the real motive. To get state support back for your Church. My tax dollars being used to promote your religion. And the Enlightenment will put one foot in the grave.

don't we already support churches with their tax free status...

[bloodyminded]

Yep, he must be a mind reader.

Not to mention that he's doing the exact thing he's accusing her of doing! Priceless.

???

I disagree with her stated assessment about how the way that people--including myself--think....and that's just sooooo freakin' arrogant of me, yes?

[ToadBrother]

don't we already support churches with their tax free status...

Yes, but Christianity is so wholesome and wonderful that all this secularist nonsense about separation of church and state can be waved away. What did Locke and those other fatheads know anyways? Screw Jefferson and Madison, Canada should be a Christian state, and it should be looking to marching pastors into every Mosque, Synagogue and Temple to proclaim the Truth of Jesus Christ to those rotten unbelievers, most of whom have turned away from the Christian god because they want to do unwholesome things to each other.

Do I have that about right, Betsy?

[betsy]

Betsy, are you really suggesting that the government get involved in promoting one religion over another? That the government start providing incentives for Muslims to consider another religion? We have a seperation of church and state in this country for a reason - that all religions be given equal treatment before the law. And what "other religions" are you prepared to welcome into this scheme? What do you know about their beliefs, and how they compare with the beliefs of Islam?

As for your original post, Hirsi Ali herself has not converted to Christianity. She is an atheist - therefore, she has no credibility in saying Muslims should convert to Christianity.

Under normal cirmcumstances, yes government should not get involved at all. However, radicalization is a big problem among the youth. Whether we like it or not, whether the Quran teaches it or not....the fact remains the same: the youth are getting propagandized to hate and jihadism. The moderate Muslims who dared speak out are pointing their fingers at Imams!

This is about religion, religion is being used - whether it is indeed part of the Quran or not.

How do you fight this?

The government will have to step up one way or another to face this situation. Youth are also getting recruited through the internet....we've got to come up with a counterplan for that, considering we cannot stop a lot of these sites.

The government can get involved by providing the youth centers! These youth centers are your normal youth centers. They should hold youth activities that would be too tempting for the youth of today!

The Feminist groups obviously has to target the females....especially the mothers. A mother who has a solid voice that equals the father's can de a good deterrant for any radicalization.

Any other religions - Judaism, Hindu, Shinto, Hare Krishna etc.,.....can all take part! Atheist group are also welcome.

The idea is to offer an alternative. To dilute the message of the Imams by having all these other ideologies around.

Hirsi Ali is an Atheist. As for why she cited Christianity in particular, I speculate that she must know about the Christian ideology and consider that it might be a tempting alternative for a Muslim.

As she suggested, it has to be a concerted effort among these groups.

I find this a better strategy....and it is non-violent. This also symbolizes our full democratic freedom!

Edited September 19, 2010 by betsy

[betsy]

We can either continue deluding ourselves that this problem will go away on its own and leave us alone.....or we come up with a solution now, before it's too late.

Anybody got a better suggestion to fighting youth radicalization, let's hear them.

[bloodyminded]

We can either continue deluding ourselves that this problem will go away on its own and leave us alone.....or we come up with a solution now, before it's too late.

Anybody got a better suggestion to fighting youth radicalization, let's hear them.

Doing nothing would be a better suggestion than government-sponsored attempts at conversion to Christianity.

Hell, many Muslims already are angered and fearful that the West is trying to destroy Islam. Currently, this assumption is incorrect.

And you wish to make it true????