Who was the first to discover America?

[ToadBrother]

Well...I'm not certain of that because we know the Chinese explored the East coast of Africa durng the same period...Chinese artifacts of that period have been found in Madagascar and the Tanzania coast.In fact.I've heared historians wonder why the Chinese did'nt colonize the East coast of Africa,unlike the Europeans...All I know is they pulled that anchor out of the coastal waters off of Mexico and it came up looking like an anchor from a Chinese junk...And they drilled out a core sample and it was made from rock that is indigenous to rock in China...Who knows???

Again, they went to East Africa by hugging the coast. As to this anchor, I'd have to see something a little more conclusive than reference to a TV special hosted by Leonard Nimoy.

[ToadBrother]

ToadBrother

For travel it does not seem that far off.

The video explains how they could have traveled from Africa straight over to the Caribbean. As they rounded the west side of Africa, the flow of water brings them out, and the wind brings them back in, but as soon as they get neat the equator, the water seems to flow directly west, so even without the help of wind, eventually the currents would take them directly west to the Caribbean.

Is that similar to how Columbus got here? Some ocean currents eventually brought them to the east cost of North America?

This all smells of Thor Hyderdahl styled archaeology. It didn't impress archaeologists then, and it doesn't impress me now.

[GostHacked]

This all smells of Thor Hyderdahl styled archaeology. It didn't impress archaeologists then, and it doesn't impress me now.

Don't know the name, I will look it up.

How did Columbus eventually get to the Americas? If he got here using the same methods (by currents) then it does lead to the possibility that the Chinese used the same methods without knowing it. I'd say both Columbus and the Chinese did not know about the currents which brought them from the west part of Africa to the Caribbean.

If Columbus did it in 1492, then it's entirely possible that the Chinese could have gotten there almost 70 years prior. The Chinese fleet was believed to be in the hundreds of vessels which would have given them a better chance of the fleet reaching the new lands. Columbus made it with 3?

[Jack Weber]

Again, they went to East Africa by hugging the coast. As to this anchor, I'd have to see something a little more conclusive than reference to a TV special hosted by Leonard Nimoy.

I agree that Mr.Spock does'nt give the idea alot of credibility,however,here's some food for thought...

http://www.cristobalcolondeibiza.com/2eng/2eng15.htm

[Bryan]

You are aware, I hope, that the Indians in the Americas are, by and large, of East Asian origin anyways? While it's always possible that some Chinese could have got here, it's not terribly likely. This theory has been around for some time, and hasn't gained much traction because it's more wishful thinking than theory.

There are also still some far east Russian aboriginal tribes that not only look a lot like our north american natives, but they also have remarkably similar traditions, clothing, dance, etc.

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2010/02/15/russian-indians/

[wyly]

I know of no conclusive findings of this kind. To sail straight across the Pacific to North America with pre-modern boatmaking technology certainly isn't impossible, but to claim that it happened as a matter of course is a bit much to buy. The Polynesians did their trans-Pacific voyages, again, by island hopping. They probably made it to South America, but it was a circuitous multi-generational set of voyages and not just some guys hopping on a boat and sailing from Melanesia to Peru.

as far as I know the only evidence for polynesians is a campfire with chicken bones, chickens not being native to the americas and the dating of the bones and the fact chickens can't fly means their source was polynesian, up to now the furthest east the polynesians came was Easter Island a relatively short hop for sailors of the Polynesians ability...Polynesians were true deep water sailors the distance between islands of the Pacfic is huge they don't fit the definition of island hopping or coast hugging sailors...the distance between Hawaii and Tahiti is about 4,000k, the distance between Basque region and Newfoundland is similar...if an islands resources were strained to the breaking point by increasing population or warfare they would strike out in search of new land...

It's one thing to suggest, as some have, that the odd Chinese or Roman boat might have got caught and made it across, but up until about the 13th or 14th century, pretty much all ships hugged the coastlines, with the Canary Islands being about as close as anyone got to trans-oceanic voyaging. It's possible that the Basques might have been fishing off the Grand Banks, as a possible exception, but evidence for that is scant, too.

there is reason to believe Columbus was aware of Basque voyages to the new world before his expedition the evidence supports they were in Canada in 1520 for whaling and likely earlier for fishing...the Azores well out into the Atlantic were on maps of the 1300's...I'm thinking Columbus had a more than just a guess that there was land on the otherside of the ocean well before he left...

So far as I know, the Chinese never did any major trans-oceanic voyages. Their famous voyages in the 14th and 15th centuries were still coast-hugging voyages.

a recent documentary with Chinese sources claim their expeditions never went further than Africa...but without solid archeological evidence it's all speculation... Edited August 31, 2010 by wyly

[wyly]

Migration waves have to be of a fairly large number for any colony to survive beyond a dozen generations without the effects of inbreeding becoming a real problem. This tends to rule-out the random boat with a few people in it starting an inroad into North America.

not impossible but a knife's edge existence to be sure, a hunter gatherer group would need about 30 individuals which would rule out the average boat of the time...so several boats and that would indicate a planned migration...

[DogOnPorch]

not impossible but a knife's edge existence to be sure, a hunter gatherer group would need about 30 individuals which would rule out the average boat of the time...so several boats and that would indicate a planned migration...

Agreement. The knife edge existence might include odd phenotypical traits coming to the forfront in the general population...like an underbite shared by all the members of an isolated colony after x number of generations. As long as the trait isn't detrimental, things should be fine in terms of survival.

[wyly]

Since then, a small number of finds, including Kennowick man who seems to have been, morphologically, more like Caucasoids (or more likely from the same founding populations that produced the Ainu of Japan), along with archaeological discoveries in Central America that are totally out to lunch with the Paleo-Indian time lines suggest that there were previous migrations into the Americas, possibly by a circumpolar people who used ice-free corridors to get south of the vast North American ice sheets into more temperate regions of North America and even South America.

just looked into Kennewick man and the latest thought is that he was a paleo-Indian, morphology can change...

[wyly]

Agreement. The knife edge existence might include odd phenotypical traits coming to the forfront in the general population...like an underbite shared by all the members of an isolated colony after x number of generations. As long as the trait isn't detrimental, things should be fine in terms of survival.

still a precarious situation, connecting with other hunter gatherer groups would greatly enhance their chances of survival...no doubt isolated hunter gatherer groups did fail many times throughout history...

genetic evidence would indicate that all of humanity(spaiens) was on the edge of extinction for some time due to climate change...latest National Geographic has a great article on this...

[DogOnPorch]

still a precarious situation, connecting with other hunter gatherer groups would greatly enhance their chances of survival...no doubt isolated hunter gatherer groups did fail many times throughout history...

genetic evidence would indicate that all of humanity(spaiens) was on the edge of extinction for some time due to climate change...latest National Geographic has a great article on this...

Not just physical isolation...but cultural isolation can play hell with the inbreeding. The natives tribe in my area had the misfortune of being located between two much larger and war-like tribes that both treated the first tribe as unclean slaves. Intermarriage was impossible.

[ToadBrother]

Don't know the name, I will look it up.

How did Columbus eventually get to the Americas? If he got here using the same methods (by currents) then it does lead to the possibility that the Chinese used the same methods without knowing it. I'd say both Columbus and the Chinese did not know about the currents which brought them from the west part of Africa to the Caribbean.

If Columbus did it in 1492, then it's entirely possible that the Chinese could have gotten there almost 70 years prior. The Chinese fleet was believed to be in the hundreds of vessels which would have given them a better chance of the fleet reaching the new lands. Columbus made it with 3?

That something is possible doesn't mean it could happen. And the large Chinese fleets that were sailing the Indian Ocean were made up of very large vessels which would have not been up to the challenge of a trans-oceanic voyage; Atlantic or Pacific. The ships Columbus sailed in were considerably smaller and while not really designed for sailing across the Atlantic, certainly were more capable than the treasure ships of Admiral Zheng He.

I'm not panning China's efforts at the time. If the Imperial policy had been maintained, while I'm not sure that the Chinese would have reached the Americas, the Portugese and later European explorations around Africa might have found themselves up against a substantial naval power. As it was, Zheng He's fleet was destroyed and China made the most unfortunate position of trying to shut itself off from the outside world, giving the Europeans the opportunity they needed.

And Thor Hyderdahl was a bit of a kook who got a lot of attention from National Geographic due to his dubious claims that the Meso-American pyramids could have been inspired by the Egyptians, and sailed an Egyptian Nile River craft across the Atlantic to prove it could be done. While it's possible, the fact was that other than general shape, there was almost nothing in common between Egyptian and Meso-American pyramids, and certainly no linguistic or archaeological evidence of Egyptians doing much more than hopping around the eastern Mediterranean. This is what I mean by trying to argue that because something was possible that it likely happened.

[ToadBrother]

There are also still some far east Russian aboriginal tribes that not only look a lot like our north american natives, but they also have remarkably similar traditions, clothing, dance, etc.

http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2010/02/15/russian-indians/

There has been some recent work linking the Na-Dene languages of Western North American to the Yeniseian languages of Central Siberia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Den%C3%A9-Yeniseian_languages

[bill_barilko]

Heyerdahl did most things backward but what really grabbed people's attention was his KonTiki expeditition which crossed the Pacifc from Peru to Polynesia just after WW2.

It proved very little but gave hope to a lot of people in war torn Euroland who were still dirt poor and traumatised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGooopCTmpg

Edited September 1, 2010 by bill_barilko

[wyly]

Heyerdahl did most things backward but what really grabbed people's attention was his KonTiki expeditition which crossed the Pacifc from Peru to Polynesia just after WW2.

It proved very little but gave hope to a lot of people in war torn Euroland who were still dirt poor and traumatised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGooopCTmpg

Heyerdahl suffered from the common Norwegian delusion vikingism(I made that up), having known several in my life they have this complusion to pretend they're vikings exploring the world...he had an adventure but was clueless in regards to archeology/anthropology...

[jbg]

You are aware, I hope, that the Indians in the Americas are, by and large, of East Asian origin anyways? While it's always possible that some Chinese could have got here, it's not terribly likely. This theory has been around for some time, and hasn't gained much traction because it's more wishful thinking than theory.

Why is it unlikely that Chinese as well as other Siberians made it across the "land bridge"? The "land bridge" was actually quite a wide area and indistinguishable from solid land. I would think lots of people made it across, went back and forth and centuries later the land bridge was submerged by (pre-global warming) rising waters.

[M.Dancer]

Why is it unlikely that Chinese as well as other Siberians made it across the "land bridge"?

Because when the land bridge was in order...there were no chinese...

[Michael Hardner]

Because it wasn't called America yet.

Didn't Columbus think it was India ?

So Columbus mis-discovered India sounds more correct.

[wyly]

Didn't Columbus think it was India ?

So Columbus mis-discovered India sounds more correct.

that was what I was taught in grade school as well but it's suspect now...he may have intended to sail to India not knowing what was in between or he may have known something was there through Basque fisherman and whalers who had likely made the voyage...and knowledge that the vikings had made long westward sea voyages would certianly have been known through church records...

[eyeball]

Who was the first to discover America?

Earthlings.

[GostHacked]

that was what I was taught in grade school as well but it's suspect now...he may have intended to sail to India not knowing what was in between or he may have known something was there through Basque fisherman and whalers who had likely made the voyage...and knowledge that the vikings had made long westward sea voyages would certianly have been known through church records...

His task was to find another way to India. The Silk Road was getting to dangerous to travel on by land. So they decided to take their ships and try to find another easier way to India/China. So they headed west with the map information that they had at the time.

[Michael Hardner]

that was what I was taught in grade school as well but it's suspect now...he may have intended to sail to India not knowing what was in between or he may have known something was there through Basque fisherman and whalers who had likely made the voyage...and knowledge that the vikings had made long westward sea voyages would certianly have been known through church records...

Also suspected -> the Romans discovered America:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1038045/posts

[jbg]

His task was to find another way to India. The Silk Road was getting to dangerous to travel on by land. So they decided to take their ships and try to find another easier way to India/China.

And who/what made the Silk Road too dangerous?

[M.Dancer]

And who/what made the Silk Road too dangerous?

The Ottomans

[Michael Hardner]

The Ottomans

I know Rob Petrie continuously fell over his Ottoman at the start of the Dick Van Dyke show.