Gun Control

[Wild Bill]

Hey I stand convinced and converted. Everyone should be armed with a gun or whatever else they feel they need to defend themselves at a moments notice. It's obvious the only way to deter the Marc Lepine's of the world is to arm everyone. Is there any reason whatsoever to believe mandatory sentencing would have done anything?

Anyone know where I can get my hands on some grenades?

This is exactly why you can be a frustrating fellow to debate, Eyeball. When confronted with some facts or argument for which you don't have an answer, you don't even bother to try!

Instead, you use hyperbole to veer off into some exaggerated or even silly area!

You never seem to actually defend what you say! Why not give REASONS why you believe what you say you do?

[M.Dancer]

Long guns can and do kill people just like any gun will. Just take a farmer or hunter who suddenly finds himself/herself very angry with someone and want to kill them. Are they going to go out and buy a hand gun? No. They take their rifle and do the job. I would think, by registering the gun, they won't be able to get rid of it without explaining to the police were the gun is.By registering it, there's a record and this would also take care of those who buy guns from each other.

So in other words...the registry won't prevent the killing...

[eyeball]

This is exactly why you can be a frustrating fellow to debate, Eyeball. When confronted with some facts or argument for which you don't have an answer, you don't even bother to try!

Instead, you use hyperbole to veer off into some exaggerated or even silly area!

You never seem to actually defend what you say! Why not give REASONS why you believe what you say you do?

I have given reasons, I think controlling guns is the appropriate response to the threat posed by the Marc Lepines of the world. I also pointed out the intersection my kids school bus drives through with the bullet riddled stop sign as a reason why I think guns and the people who use them are out of control. I've also provided reasons why I think gun control can be made to work without prohibiting guns, by using armouries or GPS activated trigger locks etc.

As for frustrating exaggerations, how do you argue against the need to register or control swimming pools? If you can't beat them maybe you have to join them.

As for arming everyone in response to the threat of the Marc Lepines, I've certainly heard my share of these arguments and this certainly sounds more likely to do that then using stiffer sentencing as you've suggested. How on Earth is sentencing supposed to stop someone who intends on killing themselves after rampaging through a shopping mall or school?

If preventing another Marc Lepine is truly impossible then the political parties should have just said so and left things the way they were. Instead they opened up a Pandora's can of worms and polarized and frustrated society in the process. Don't blame me.

[eyeball]

So in other words...the registry won't prevent the killing...

No doubt someone said this way back when the registry was proposed and why they didn't stick with it is a real shame. Instead they probably hijacked the public's outrage and concern and steered it towards their own efforts to engineer a safer world.

[Argus]

Long guns can and do kill people just like any gun will. Just take a farmer or hunter who suddenly finds himself/herself very angry with someone and want to kill them. Are they going to go out and buy a hand gun? No. They take their rifle and do the job. I would think, by registering the gun, they won't be able to get rid of it without explaining to the police were the gun is.By registering it, there's a record and this would also take care of those who buy guns from each other.

You simply report the gun stolen.

[wulf42]

I don't know but I know this won't do it.

Realistically, as someone who is a supporter of gun control. I would like to try implementing the following measures:

1. All assault type weapons would be banned.

2. In urban settings, hunting weapons would be stored at well guarded locations on the edge of town, along the highways heading out. All handguns used for target shooting would be stored at the site. There would be no private collections of working firearms.

3. Extremely heavy handed laws put in place for anyone found buying, selling, possessing or carrying an illegal firearm. Smuggling a firearm into Canada would draw an automatic 10 year term on a first offense. Life on any subsequent offense. Using a firearm in the commission of any crime would carry an automatic 10 year addition to the sentence with no parole - on the first offense. Life without parole on any subsequent offense.

4. Federal funding for police sting teams with no other purpose but to attempt to purchase weapons illegally.

Firearms offenses would be non-bailable and tried in special courts.

I would like to see a mandatory 2 year sentence for anyone carrying illegal drugs including Pot, I would like to see anyone caught growing,cultivating pot serve a 2-5 year sentence with no chance of parole.I would like to see all crack dealers or ANYONE caught selling drugs sentenced to 10 years with no chance of parole.I would like to see all this happen however there is as much chance of that happening as you getting your wish, Guns have always been in our History and they will always be in our future, there is nothing wrong with collectors or target shooters having weapons and keeping them in their homes under lock and key..... your suggestion is hard to even imagine and that would be as close to a dictatorship as this Country could get.

Edited September 13, 2010 by wulf42

[punked]

I would like to see a mandatory 2 year sentence for anyone carrying illegal drugs including Pot, I would like to see anyone caught growing,cultivating pot serve a 2-5 year sentence with no chance of parole.I would like to see all crack dealers or ANYONE caught selling drugs sentenced to 10 years with no chance of parole.I would like to see all this happen always been in our History and they will always be in our future, there is nothing wrong however there is as much chance of that happening as you getting your wish, Guns have with collectors or target shooters having weapons and keeping them in their homes under lock and key..... your suggestion is hard to even imagine and that would be as close to a dictatorship as this Country could get.

You sir have won craziest post of the day. I would like congratulate you.

[wulf42]

You sir have won craziest post of the day. I would like congratulate you.

Ok,

1.You changed the words around in my post for some reason

2. why is that?? are drugs not illegal in this Country? Why should Gun owners who are fully licensed and lock their firearms and ammunition up and act like responsible Gun owners be punished?? the suggestion that was posted and that i was responding to is ridiculous and was about as realistic as my suggestion was about sentences for drugs.

Edited September 13, 2010 by wulf42

[M.Dancer]

I don't know but I know this won't do it.

Realistically, as someone who is a supporter of gun control. I would like to try implementing the following measures:

1. All assault type weapons would be banned.

2. In urban settings, hunting weapons would be stored at well guarded locations on the edge of town, along the highways heading out. All handguns used for target shooting would be stored at the site. There would be no private collections of working firearms.

3. Extremely heavy handed laws put in place for anyone found buying, selling, possessing or carrying an illegal firearm. Smuggling a firearm into Canada would draw an automatic 10 year term on a first offense. Life on any subsequent offense. Using a firearm in the commission of any crime would carry an automatic 10 year addition to the sentence with no parole - on the first offense. Life without parole on any subsequent offense.

4. Federal funding for police sting teams with no other purpose but to attempt to purchase weapons illegally.

Firearms offenses would be non-bailable and tried in special courts.

I could sign off on that.

[punked]

And why is that?? are drugs not illegal in this Country? Why should Gun owners who are fully licensed and lock their firearms and ammunition up and act like responsible Gun owners be punished?? the suggestion that was posted and that i was responding to is ridiculous and was about as realistic as my suggestion was about sentences for drugs.

I don't think gun owners should be punished. I think your idea to bankrupt the country by providing 3 squares a day and housing for non-violent criminals is crazy. Hey lets just take all our money out of Education and Health care and direct it to prisons because wulf hates drugs. That is crazy. I don't think you know how much prison cost.

[punked]

And why is that?? are drugs not illegal in this Country? Why should Gun owners who are fully licensed and lock their firearms and ammunition up and act like responsible Gun owners be punished?? the suggestion that was posted and that i was responding to is ridiculous and was about as realistic as my suggestion was about sentences for drugs.

I don't think gun owners should be punished. I think your idea to bankrupt the country by providing 3 squares a day and housing for non-violent criminals is crazy. Hey lets just take all our money out of Education and Health care and direct it to prisons because wulf hates drugs. That is crazy. I don't think you know how much prison cost.

[PIK]

So how do we prevent the Lepine's of the world?

There is nothing you can do about the lepines in the world, but the registry has done nothing but divide the people and cost us alot of money.

[segnosaur]

Realistically, as someone who is a supporter of gun control. I would like to try implementing the following measures:

1. All assault type weapons would be banned.

Please provide a definition for what you would consider to be an "assault type weapon".

2. In urban settings, hunting weapons would be stored at well guarded locations on the edge of town, along the highways heading out.

You don't think people might want to, you know, take their hunting weapons home with them to (for example) clean them? Or to take those weapons to a shooting range inside town in order to target-shoot?

And what exactly do you think will be the working hours of that 'well guarded location'? Monday-Friday 9-5? That will go over real well with those that want to go hunting on the weekend.

And as I asked another poster, why exactly do you see the need to deal only with firearms in such a manner? What about other elements of danger (such as cars or swimming pools) for which similar tactics can be taken?

All handguns used for target shooting would be stored at the site.

So, your assumption would be that people are only allowed to shoot at the one target range. Not exactly very practical for those who might want to shoot competitively, or at least practice at more than 1 range.

3. Extremely heavy handed laws put in place for anyone found buying, selling, possessing or carrying an illegal firearm... Using a firearm in the commission of any crime would carry an automatic 10 year addition to the sentence...

I have no problem with increased punishment for those who use guns illegally. (Heck, I'd also be willing to have fines increased for those who don't properly store their fire arms.

The difference between that and your other suggestions is that laws regarding illegal firearm selling/use/etc. target those that are doing something wrong as opposed to the majority who respect firearms and do not intend to abuse them.

[wulf42]

I don't think gun owners should be punished. I think your idea to bankrupt the country by providing 3 squares a day and housing for non-violent criminals is crazy. Hey lets just take all our money out of Education and Health care and direct it to prisons because wulf hates drugs. That is crazy. I don't think you know how much prison cost.

So making criminals out of licensed Hunters,target shooters and gun collectors is any better? The proposal the poster suggested would do exactly just that and considering how many Canadians own guns you better start building a heck of a lot of prisons.

[punked]

So making criminals out of licensed Hunters,target shooters and gun collectors is any better? The proposal the poster suggested would do exactly just that and considering how many Canadians own guns you better start building a heck of a lot of prisons.

I think you need to re read my opinions on guns. I think your wish that all non-violant criminals serve between 2-10 in jail is the craziest thing anyone who hates paying taxes has ever said.

[wulf42]

I have no problem with increased punishment for those who use guns illegally. (Heck, I'd also be willing to have fines increased for those who don't properly store their fire arms.

Totally agree, stronger sentences and stiffer fines for criminal offenses involving firearms is what is needed, not a ban as some suggest.

[wulf42]

I think you need to re read my opinions on guns. I think your wish that all non-violant criminals serve between 2-10 in jail is the craziest thing anyone who hates paying taxes has ever said.

You have missed my point i am afraid, I was trying to make the point that banishing guns to the outside of town somewhere......(i am still chuckling over that one) and punishing Hunters and target shooters made as much sense as long jail terms for pot users.

[punked]

You have missed my point i am afraid, I was trying to make the point that banishing guns to the outside of town somewhere......(i am still chuckling over that one) and punishing Hunters and target shooters made as much sense as long jail terms for pot users.

Then why would you ever say you would like to see it?

[wulf42]

Then why would you ever say you would like to see it?

Well as far as Crack dealers go.........yes it should be 10 years with no chance of parole. For pot offenses there should be stronger fines that gradually increase with the number of offenses. Until this Country decides to legalize Pot it is still a criminal offense in Canada.

[punked]

Well as far as Crack dealers go.........yes it should be 10 years with no chance of parole. For pot offenses there should be stronger fines that gradually increase with the number of offenses. Until this Country decides to legalize Pot it is still a criminal offense in Canada.

So is jay walking would you like to see jay walkers get 2 years in prision no questions asked to? That is crazy which is why you won today.

[segnosaur]

Yes, what he did was tragic. But then tragedies happen on a regular basis with those who drive drunk/irresponsibly, or who have swimming pools where people drown. You can't eliminate all risks; there will always be a trade off between risk and enjoyment/convenience. Why does the death of (for example) David Hudson or Alexa Middelaer (both killed by drunk drivers) matter less than the individuals killed by Lepine?

As I recall guns were to be afforded special consideration when it comes to control because they lend themselves so well to expressing rage and garnering the attention people like Marc Lepine crave. Swimming pools just don't do that.

So, what you're saying is that you don't actually care about total lives saved, only in lives saved when people "express rage". And you'd be quite happy with hundreds, if not thousands of people dying unnecessarily as long as those deaths are not from "rage". Is that an accurate assessment?

I've asked this before, and you have avoided answering the question....Why the double standard?

I guess I subscribe to the idea that guns do warrant special consideration because of their inherent ability to convey rage in such a graphic fearful manner.

Um, "Graphic Fearful Manner". So you don't care how dangerous firearms actually are, you just care how others "think" they are.

Perception over reality. Style over Substance.

Oh, and before you try repeating the same debunked argument about how you want "self driving cars", once again that technology is years if not decades away... yet we can help those killed or injured by drunk drivers, by those who use cars in the commission of crimes, or those who drown in unsupervised backyard pools now.

Well, for starters cars are registered and further special consideration is given through driver licensing because of the danger they pose...

And people have to get a possession and aquisition certificate before they get a gun. (Heck, there are probably more restrictions to get such a certificate than there are to get a driver's license.

...but again cars are not guns so treating them the exact same way seems silly.

the only reason you are claiming that its "silly" to treat guns and cars the same way is because it illustrates the problems in your arguments. If you truly cared about "saving lives" you'd call for private cars to also be banned (or tightly controlled). But because you are more interested in style over substance, or in caving in to people's irrational fears, you want tighter gun controls but are unwilling to call for the same on private cars.

Now that said, breathalyzer ignition interlocks could have prevented the deaths you mentioned.

Except that it won't if an individual drinks while driving. Nor will it prevent people using a car in the commission of a premeditated crime when completely sober.

Not to mentioned the issue that it would probably take years to install breathalyzers on cars, while in the meantime hundreds if not thousands will die in the meantime.

Radio or cell phone interlock systems are also available so police can take control of vehicles remotely.

Another idiotic suggestion, since even if vehicles were equipped with such devices (which might take years to accomplish) they wouldn't be of any use during the commission of the initial crime. So, feel free to run over all the innocent people you want.... it won't be until after your victims are dead and mashed to a pulp that the cops will need to use their magical "radio control" systems.

But then, according to you, all of those mashed up victims don't matter because they weren't killed with a device that "conveys rage in a fearful manner". I'm sure that will be a real comfort to the friends and family of the victims.

As for double standards and given how FAC's and safety training are all that's required to keep us safe from firearms can we expect calls for swimming pool acquisition certificates and training?

I do not feel that "swimming pool acquisition certificates" are necessary. But then, that's my point... I am being consistent. I recognize that both Guns and Swimming pools (as well as cars) are "safe enough" to allow private possession. You, on the other hand, are the one that is employing a double standard... ignoring the risk in one case but attempting to eliminate the risk in another.

[wulf42]

So is jay walking would you like to see jay walkers get 2 years in prision no questions asked to? That is crazy which is why you won today.

And you think banishing all guns to the outside of town in some "guarded" location is normal?? and making "heavy handed" laws against hunters,target shooters and gun collectors is okay?? sorry friend if you think that is normal then you nee......ah never mind. It never ceases to amaze me how defensive people get when you mention anything against Drug use that openly breaks the law but the same people seem to feel it is okay to banish all guns from responsible gun owners who follow the laws,have the proper training and licenses and are of no threat to anyone and turn them all into criminals, only in Canada (shaking head laughing).

Edited September 13, 2010 by wulf42

[punked]

And you think banishing all guns to the outside of town in some "guarded" location is normal?? and making "heavy handed" laws against hunters,target shooters and gun collectors is okay?? sorry friend if you think that is normal then you nee......ah never mind. It never ceases to amaze me how defensive people get when you mention anything against Drug use that openly breaks the law but the same people seem to feel it is okay to banish all guns from responsible gun owners who follow the laws,have the proper training and licenses and are of no threat to anyone and turn them all into criminals, only in Canada (shaking head laughing).

No I don't I think you would see that if you read anything I have ever wrote on the topic of gun control. However I am not so dense that I can see someone is talking about the control aspect of gun control.

On the other hand bankrupting Canada to punish people for non-violent crimes is crazy. It is looney tunes.

[wulf42]

No I don't I think you would see that if you read anything I have ever wrote on the topic of gun control. However I am not so dense that I can see someone is talking about the control aspect of gun control.

On the other hand bankrupting Canada to punish people for non-violent crimes is crazy. It is looney tunes.

And my point that for some reason you fail to see is that making "heavy handed" laws and banishing gun ownership from licensed,trained and law abiding citizens and turning them into criminals for simply owning a hunting rifle is also loony tunes and is equally as crazy.Why you stay focused on drug use (which is a crime) and has destroyed far more families than any gun ever has is beyond me.

You also mention about bankrupting Canada... tell me again how much did the Gun Registry cost to set up?? How much did that cost the Canadian tax payer? and continues to cost the Canadian tax payer?

Edited September 13, 2010 by wulf42

[punked]

And my point that for some reason you fail to see is that making "heavy handed" laws and banishing gun ownership from licensed,trained and law abiding citizens and turning them into criminals for simply owning a hunting rifle is also loony tunes and is equally crazy.Why you stay focused on drug use (which is a crime) and has destroyed far more families than any gun ever has is beyond me.

You also mention about bankrupting Canada... tell me again how much did the Gun Registry cost to set up?? How much did that cost the Canadian tax payer? and continues to cost the Canadian tax payer?

But we already did that. The Liberals already made law abiding people criminals. I agree that the Gun Registry at one time would have won craziest post. Now it is here so it seems a lot less crazy then your solution. The whole bankrupting Canada one, putting non violent criminals behind bars for 2-10 years would cost a lot more then the 2-4 billion the Gun registry did that is for sure try 100-200 times that amount.