Is the United States becoming more corrupt?

[Argus]

By coincidence, I've been watching a few documentary type movies over the last few weeks. I didn't seek them out. I'd only heard of one, Michael Moore's latest: Capitalism, a love story. The other two are Gasland, about the National Gas industry in the US, and the third is If God is Willing and the Creek Don't Rise.

All of them focus separate issues, but basically the same problem. That problem, as expressed in different ways, is big corporations doing really lousy, unethical, immoral, and often illegal things throughout America while regulators look the other way, or are helpess due to corrupt government.

Gasland was kind of an eye opener because I never really thought much about National Gas being a huge polluter. But in the US it's apparently managed to bribe its way into not having to report what chemicals it uses, and not having to care about the Clean Air Act or, it seems, much of anything else. It was kind of startling how much pollution, both ground, water, and air they put out, and how many people are sick because of it. You expect that sort of unregulated industry in the third world but not in the US.

Moore's story was much the same, basically detailing how massively profitable financial industries paid off congressmen in order to be free of regulation and oversight, and then ran their industry into the ground in an orgy of individual wealth pursuit. In another documentary I saw a month or two back called Maxed Out, it was detailed how the credit industry preyed on the most vulnerable, luring in poorer people with the promise of easy, cheap credit, then entangling them in all sorts of fine print rules which hiked up their interest costs and penalties. The same industry which bribed regulators into making it extremely difficult for ordinary citizens to then go bankrupt and get out of their debts then used their bought and paid for regulators to get themselves bought out of debt by the public.

In one story after another, both in these documentaries, and in the news, I see industries which seek to maximize profits through unethical behaviour, and a corrupt governmental structure which accepts bribes in the form of donations and doesn't call that corruption. Moore had previously detailed in Sicco, how senior senators given huge "donations" rammed a bill through congress written by the pharmaceutical industry, and then quit to take high paying jobs with that industry.

It just seems to me that ordinary people are getting shafted more and more by the wealthy corporations who now largely own government at all levels.

Corrupt Nation

Maxxed Out

Gasland

Capitalism: A Love Story

[bush_cheney2004]

....It just seems to me that ordinary people are getting shafted more and more by the wealthy corporations who now largely own government at all levels.

This doen't make any sense given the recent corporate bailouts by government, which now owns 60% of General Motors. More corrupt compared to what/when? Ordinary people have never demanded more in the way of entitlements.

[August1991]

In one story after another, both in these documentaries, and in the news, I see industries which seek to maximize profits through unethical behaviour, and a corrupt governmental structure which accepts bribes in the form of donations and doesn't call that corruption.

You raise a good question, Argus.

Despite what b_c may say, or perhaps given what b_c says elsewhere, the power of the US federal government is greater now than decades ago. Private interests have many reasons to use this State power.

This doen't make any sense given the recent corporate bailouts by government, which now owns 60% of General Motors.

In Europe, that's called a nationalization. In Canada, we call it Fort McMurray or Bombardier.

-----

More fundamentally, in a desire for safety and security, in Europe and America, we now let bureaucrats choose winners.

Edited August 29, 2010 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

...Despite what b_c may say, or perhaps given what b_c says elsewhere, the power of the US federal government is greater now than decades ago. Private interests have many reasons to use this State power.

And despite what you say here or elsewhere, US "government" exists at several levels, not just federal. Growth in government does not automatically translate into "corruption"...this, just as in Canada, is the work of individuals or political groups. America's corrupt politicians actually get jail time when convicted. In Canada, they get appointed to the Senate.

Edited August 29, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[August1991]

And despite what you say here or elsewhere, US "government" exists at several levels, not just federal. Growth in government does not automatically translate into "corruption"...

As I grow older, I am amazed with the US Constitution. It specifically defends against such possibilities.

As a foreigner, I find the US Constitution the best defence against Leftists who claim America is somehow evil incarnate.

I am not American or French, but I refer to the US Constitution, the Declaration of Independance and La Déclaration des droits de l’Homme et du Citoyen. Such documents made clear the limits of State power.

America, what a country!

There's no sarcasm or irony in this. We are talking about the truth, directly. The American Constitution is a remarkable document, and in arguing with foreign Lefists or environmentists, I refer to it often.

Sustainable? The US Constitution has survived for over two centuries. Can environmentalists conceive a scheme that will last as long?

Progressive Leftists? The US Constitution protects individuals against McCarthy, and Fox TV. The Right? The US Constitution protects individuals against political correctness. Whatever your stripe, regressive or progressive, Right or Left, the US Constitution protects individuals against the tyranny of the majority. And it works.

As a Canadian, I can say that your Constitution is a remarkable document and that our Charter of Rights is a pale, compromise imitation of your first 13 Constitutional Amendments. God knows what our Charter of Rights will be in 200 years.

---

Canadians who defend our Charter of Rights in effect defend the American ideal, as I do. In practice though, when it comes to written documents, you Americans have a better track record.

We Canadians tend to find another, different interpretation and twist the meaning of written words.

Edited August 29, 2010 by August1991

[eyeball]

Sustainable? The US Constitution has survived for over two centuries. Can environmentalists conceive a scheme that will last as long?

Aldo Leopold's land ethic comes to mind.

I certainly can't conceive the constitution outlasting the ecosystems people depend on. It'll be kind of moot if they're wrecked.

[bush_cheney2004]

....I certainly can't conceive the constitution outlasting the ecosystems people depend on. It'll be kind of moot if they're wrecked.

"Wrecked" is a very relative term. Ecosystems were wrecked many times before constitutions ever existed.

[Bonam]

Aldo Leopold's land ethic comes to mind.

I certainly can't conceive the constitution outlasting the ecosystems people depend on. It'll be kind of moot if they're wrecked.

Why not? Much of the US ecosystem has already been reshaped to suit the purposes of the American people and this will continue to happen. There is no wrecking going on, just a transition from naturally evolved ecosystems to artificially created ones.

[ToadBrother]

And despite what you say here or elsewhere, US "government" exists at several levels, not just federal. Growth in government does not automatically translate into "corruption"...this, just as in Canada, is the work of individuals or political groups. America's corrupt politicians actually get jail time when convicted. In Canada, they get appointed to the Senate.

Anybody who thinks the US is corrupt now should look back at the age of the of the Robber Barons. No one can deny there will always be some corruption, but to imagine somehow that we live in an age of far greater corruption doesn't really hold up to facts.

[Shady]

Anybody who thinks the US is corrupt now should look back at the age of the of the Robber Barons. No one can deny there will always be some corruption, but to imagine somehow that we live in an age of far greater corruption doesn't really hold up to facts.

Well said.

[eyeball]

Anybody who thinks the US is corrupt now should look back at the age of the of the Robber Barons. No one can deny there will always be some corruption, but to imagine somehow that we live in an age of far greater corruption doesn't really hold up to facts.

First I think we'd have to define what we mean by corruption and in the context of corrupt government regulators the best definition I've heard was an opinion offered by an Ottawa legal society, that corruption is secrecy with the intent to deceive.

There is clearly an awful lot of that going on within government circles throughout the world.

Edited August 29, 2010 by eyeball

[Argus]

Why not? Much of the US ecosystem has already been reshaped to suit the purposes of the American people and this will continue to happen. There is no wrecking going on, just a transition from naturally evolved ecosystems to artificially created ones.

Do you consider streams with no life which catch fire to be a naturally evolved ecosystem?

[Jack Weber]

Do you consider streams with no life which catch fire to be a naturally evolved ecosystem?

Cuyahoga River???

"Oh no...Where'd ya' go,Ohio?"

[ToadBrother]

First I think we'd have to define what we mean by corruption and in the context of corrupt government regulators the best definition I've heard was an opinion offered by an Ottawa legal society, that corruption is secrecy with the intent to deceive.

There is clearly an awful lot of that going on within government circles throughout the world.

That seems a rather useless definition. At any rate, I don't really see any evidence that things are more corrupt than they were yesterday. In US history, there have been periods of greater corruption, and the worst period was the late 19th century, up until Roosevelt's trust busting.

I'm not saying there isn't corruption. That seems to me to be a constant of government. It's prevalence and the extent to which it warps the political process is what counts. The odd crooked politician is a state of affairs we'll never get rid of, but I would suggest that before we go declaring this the Age of Corruption we look at the past, and indeed at other jurisdictions. For instance, look at China, where even an authoritarian government with seemingly absolute powers can't stomp out corrupt practices, or at least is fighting a very uphill battle.

[bush_cheney2004]

Do you consider streams with no life which catch fire to be a naturally evolved ecosystem?

Does this mean that Ontario is more corrupt too (e.g. Nanticoke power plants)? Cough....cough!!

[Shady]

Do you consider streams with no life which catch fire to be a naturally evolved ecosystem?

Was that 20 years ago, or 30 years ago? Not to mention that it's been cleaned up significantly. But I'm not sure how that relates to corruption. If you wanna see the most polluted ecosystems in the world, take a gander at China, or India, or places.

[eyeball]

That seems a rather useless definition.

It's no surprise to me you'd think that.

Given there is no legal definition for corruption opinions on the word are all we have to go on so context is everything. For example secrecy and deception don't have anything to do with a rotten tooth that is corrupted by decay but they have a lot to do with governing.

At any rate, I don't really see any evidence that things are more corrupt than they were yesterday.

That's the whole point of secrecy and deception, you're not supposed to see the evidence. What we see are the results of the corruption.

In US history, there have been periods of greater corruption, and the worst period was the late 19th century, up until Roosevelt's trust busting.

I'm not saying there isn't corruption. That seems to me to be a constant of government. It's prevalence and the extent to which it warps the political process is what counts.

What about the damage it does to things like the environment, human health and public attitudes towards the political process?

The odd crooked politician is a state of affairs we'll never get rid of, but I would suggest that before we go declaring this the Age of Corruption we look at the past, and indeed at other jurisdictions. For instance, look at China, where even an authoritarian government with seemingly absolute powers can't stomp out corrupt practices, or at least is fighting a very uphill battle.

Your perspective is completely upside down here. Government corruption in something that constituents in a country battle uphill against. It's telling that you would choose to paint even a totalitarian state like China as being a victim of corruption as opposed to being the main perpetrator.

[Smallc]

It may not be the most corrupt that it has ever been, but it is increasingly becoming a place where money is the driver of everything. The recent supreme court decision on political advertisements by organizations, along with the ability to donate far too much money to political candidates and parties, ensures that.

[bush_cheney2004]

It may not be the most corrupt that it has ever been, but it is increasingly becoming a place where money is the driver of everything. The recent supreme court decision on political advertisements by organizations, along with the ability to donate far too much money to political candidates and parties, ensures that.

No, the United States Constitution "ensures" that.

[gradkiss]

Everything here in this abode called Earth follows the laws of physics.Practice what is contrary to the laws of physics and the resulting conclusions will be seen as corruption.We, as individuals are separately positioned on a time-line...where we influence each other in a permeation with an outcome that can be noticed as resulting conclusions.Free of pretesion or calculation we can not change the future, as it is already written.The only way we will ever notice a change in our surrounding conditions, is if we get it together in our actions and policy.

Punish and fine someone...you punish and fine everyone.Find resolve and remedy, and prevent the crime...you joined those thought of as righteous.

The uS government has had 47 recessions since 1890.You would think that they could have learned...that using a currency has it's conclusions.Historically proven just like the conclusive evidence of a court.Then use money to justify everything you do.You'll find that we will not escape corruption.

We are all intelligent beings when we do intelligent things.But do as the uS government...and you will not escape the accusations that the members of Congress and it's President are not possessed by a demon.In todays case...the demon is caused by the uS currency.

Mastema- is the name of an arch-demon who first appears in the literature of Israel's Second Temple Period, as a personification of the Hebrew word "mastemah" (משטמה), meaning "hatred", "hostility", "enmity" or "persecution".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastema

I hope you can see my point, not from a religious view, but the equal view we may find in our own language of today.Corruption is corruption at any time in man's history.

[nicky10013]

No, the United States Constitution "ensures" that.

No, no it doesn't. The problem here is money doesn't equal freedom. Certainly money doesn't equal freedom of speech. If a company wants to support a candidate, they certainly have the freedom to buy ad space to announce it from the heaven, but a company donating money to a party isn't protected. Firstly, corporations, constitutionally, aren't people. It was decided in court that they were. Wonder how much money went into that decision.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, no it doesn't. The problem here is money doesn't equal freedom. Certainly money doesn't equal freedom of speech. If a company wants to support a candidate, they certainly have the freedom to buy ad space to announce it from the heaven, but a company donating money to a party isn't protected. Firstly, corporations, constitutionally, aren't people. It was decided in court that they were. Wonder how much money went into that decision.

You refuse to accept the obvious...money counts...in a big way. Money equals access and mainstream bandwidth. America is the same as it ever was no matter which way the courts sway. And that's just how we roll. Deal with it.

But don't worry, we invented YouTube and Twitter for you of lesser means.

[nicky10013]

You refuse to accept the obvious...money counts...in a big way. Money equals access and mainstream bandwidth. America is the same as it ever was no matter which way the courts sway. And that's just how we roll. Deal with it.

But don't worry, we invented YouTube and Twitter for you of lesser means.

I don't doubt monny matters. The problem clearly is letting money matter too much. Where is the line in terms of companies between support and corruption?

If you want to roll that way, and are proud of it, then perhaps you'll be proud to wear the label of corrupt as well.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't doubt monny matters. The problem clearly is letting money matter too much. Where is the line in terms of companies between support and corruption?

Where we decide to draw the line in law, not your sanctimonious opinion.

If you want to roll that way, and are proud of it, then perhaps you'll be proud to wear the label of corrupt as well.

My understanding of how the world works is congruent with observation. I'd rather be "corrupt" than a naive pretender that can't see the very same thing in your own country and government. Should I worry about that as much as you let the American "problem" occupy your time? Nope....why is Canada so corrupt....who cares?!

Edited September 5, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[nicky10013]

Where we decide to draw the line in law, not your santimonious opinion.

The thread asks the question. I answered it. You don't like the answer, so be it.

My understanding of how the world works is congruent with observation.

AHahahahahaha quote of the year. Right.

I'd rather be "corrupt" than a naive pretender that can't see the very same thing in your own country and government. Should I worry about that as much as you let the American "problem" occupy your time? Nope....why is Canada so corrupt....who cares?!

There is corruption everywhere. It just matters how often it happens and to what degree. It happens here less often than in the US so perhaps the different views on the role of money in politics has something to do with that. Check out the transparency index. Canada has always rated higher than the US.

Edited September 5, 2010 by nicky10013