Is the United States becoming more corrupt?

[bush_cheney2004]

The thread asks the question. I answered it. You don't like the answer, so be it.

How can you answer it? Do you live/vote in America?

There is corruption everywhere. It just matters how often it happens and to what degree. It happens here less often than in the US so perhaps the different views on the role of money in politics has something to do with that. Check out the transparency index. Canada has always rated higher than the US.

I can find any number of "indexes" and rankings where Canada is found to be more "corrupt" than the USA. Canada is notorious for money and favors changing hands in government for labor, contracts, etc. Members here at MLW have often remarked that Canadian corruption goes unpunished (i.e. jail time). PM Chretien's Liberal government was turfed largely because of...you guessed it...corruption.

Canada has actually slipped in corruption rankings recently according to the Transparency wonks....that means Canada is becoming more corrupt....oh my!

Edited September 5, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[nicky10013]

How can you answer it? Do you live/vote in America?

The way money affects democracy is a problem in every country and a threat to every democracy. To say that the US example is somehow different is just being naive.

I can find any number of "indexes" and rankings where Canada is found to be more "corrupt" than the USA. Canada is notorious for money and favors changing hands in government for labor, contracts, etc. Members here at MLW have often remarked that Canadian corruption goes unpunished (i.e. jail time). PM Chretien's Liberal government was turfed largely because of...you guessed it...corruption.

Canada has actually slipped in corruption rankings recently according to the Transparency wonks....that means Canada is becoming more corrupt....oh my!

I'm very well aware of the history of the Liberal Party. People here comment that corruption goes unpunished because they're right wingers who hate the Liberal Party who are so blinded by their hate that they forget that the people who were corrupt were sent to prison.

As for your "indexes," lets see em. The few I've checked through simple google all have Canada rated at least a full point higher than the US.

[bush_cheney2004]

The way money affects democracy is a problem in every country and a threat to every democracy. To say that the US example is somehow different is just being naive.

It's not a threat to US "democracy"....it has been thus for over 200 years.

I'm very well aware of the history of the Liberal Party. People here comment that corruption goes unpunished because they're right wingers who hate the Liberal Party who are so blinded by their hate that they forget that the people who were corrupt were sent to prison.

The sponsorship scandal was systemic corruption born of a national policy that is itself corrupt. But that's just my opinion!

As for your "indexes," lets see em. The few I've checked through simple google all have Canada rated at least a full point higher than the US.

There's more to corruption than Transparency's self appointed import and ranking.

Edited September 5, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[nicky10013]

It's not a threat to US "democracy"....it has been thus for over 200 years.

It's your choice to overlook the buying and selling of policy as corrupt. Thank god I don't live by you is all I have to say.

The sponsorship scandal was systemic corruption born of a national policy that is itself corrupt. But that's just my opinion!

Keeping Quebec in confederation is a corrupt policy? Please, do go on.

There's more to corruption than Transparency's self appointed import and ranking.

In other words, you don't got shit.

[Moonlight Graham]

The U.S. is a plutocracy, not a democracy. Yes, money does matter. You have to have access to ridiculous millions of money to run for President, and besides some billionaire independent candidates, those millions translate to lobby/interest groups controlling the country.

Campaign finance reform is difficult in the U.S. because of rights guaranteed in the Constitution. Unfortunately, the U.S. Constitutions (while an amazing document) is not perfect. What about the right for citizens not to have their democracy eroded & their govt controlled by the wealthy elite? Oops forgot that in the Bill of Rights.

"reasonable limits", brother!

[bush_cheney2004]

It's your choice to overlook the buying and selling of policy as corrupt. Thank god I don't live by you is all I have to say.

Not only do you not live by me....you don't live in the same nation. You can enjoy your smug brand of corruption, while I enjoy mine.

Keeping Quebec in confederation is a corrupt policy? Please, do go on.

Yes...a festering sore of a problem that continues to eat at Canadian unity. Members here echo that often, from equalization payments to discrimination in federal/provincial hiring practices. Very corrupt!

In other words, you don't got shit.

Right...no corruption in Canada! LOL!

Example....this guy thinks otherwise for Health Canada:

http://www.amazon.ca/Corrupt-Core-Memoirs-Health-Whistleblower/dp/097319457X

Edited September 5, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[nicky10013]

Not only do you not live by me....you don't live in the same nation. You can enjoy your smug brand of corruption, while I enjoy mine.

Mine's not smug. I recognize a problem and see solutions to them.

Yes...a festering sore of a problem that continues to eat at Canadian unity. Members here echo that often, from equalization payments to discrimination in federal/provincial hiring practices. Very corrupt!

Hahahaahahaha. Laughable. Truly laughable.

Right...no corruption in Canada! LOL!

Example....this guy thinks otherwise for Health Canada:

http://www.amazon.ca/Corrupt-Core-Memoirs-Health-Whistleblower/dp/097319457X

How stupid do you think I am? I said not 5 posts ago that I know corruption exists here. You responded to it. Now you claim that I said Canada doesn't have corruption? Are you seriously that short on anything recognizing civilized debate?

[bush_cheney2004]

Mine's not smug. I recognize a problem and see solutions to them.

No...you just regurgitate the pablum learned from American television. Even your anti-American venom is imported...from America.

Hahahaahahaha. Laughable. Truly laughable.

...but not disputed.

How stupid do you think I am? I said not 5 posts ago that I know corruption exists here. You responded to it. Now you claim that I said Canada doesn't have corruption? Are you seriously that short on anything recognizing civilized debate?

I don't mind that Canada is so corrupt....but I do like to laugh at those who think being "less corrupt" is a good thing. It's a continuation of comparison and definition based on America, without which I don't know what you would do.

Edited September 5, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[nicky10013]

No...you just regurgitate the pablum learned from American television. Even your anti-American venom is imported...from America.

Nope. Not at all. You're the one who bristles against any critique of the US, so really, how's denial treating you?

...but not disputed.

Of course it's disputed. Equalization doesn't pose a threat to confederation. Provinces rattle sabres about getting more out of the program but that's not a threat. If you want to view it as such, it's your right to be misinformed. As for hiring practices, that's not a French issue, but a minority issue. You've got those as well. So tell me, how parilous is state of the Union. Afterall, you have more experience than we do with secession.

I don't mind that Canada is so corrupt....but I do like to laugh at those who think being "less corrupt" is a good thing. It's a continuation of comparison and definition based on America, without which I don't know what you would do.

This is nothing more than a "I know you are but what am I" type argument. Tell me, do you enjoy being so childish?

[bush_cheney2004]

This is nothing more than a "I know you are but what am I" type argument. Tell me, do you enjoy being so childish?

I enjoy running circles around smug, sanctimonious people like you. Your benchmark and constant is America...you cannot escape it....not even China will do. Enjoy the definition made possible by American media, even if you don't quite get it right.

[nicky10013]

I enjoy running circles around smug, sanctimonious people like you. Your benchmark and constant is America...you cannot escape it....not even China will do. Enjoy the definition made possible by American media, even if you don't quite get it right.

The American media can define what it wants. It doesn't make it right. As for smug and sanctimonious? I don't believe anyone can top your performance tonight. Furthermore, I said you attempted to run a circle. You didn't, and you've only seemed to run one around yourself making yourself dizzy.

The benchmark right now may be the US. However, the hubris behind the statement that her power will never fade is one of the most ridiculous statements ever made on these boards, and there have been quite a few. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Rome, the British Empire...the US is next though that shouldn't be viewed as a bad thing. It'll still be a powerful country, just not the most powerful.

Edited September 5, 2010 by nicky10013

[bush_cheney2004]

The American media can define what it wants. It doesn't make it right. As for smug and sanctimonious? I don't believe anyone can top your performance tonight. Furthermore, I said you attempted to run a circle. You didn't, and you've only seemed to run one around yourself making yourself dizzy.

You have made errors and mistakes in a circular pattern...messing up on several basic things. Typical of looking over the fence through a small peep hole.

The benchmark right now may be the US....

Game..set..and match. Come back when this isn't the case....but I will be dead by then.

[nicky10013]

You have made errors and mistakes in a circular pattern...messing up on several basic things. Typical of looking over the fence through a small peep hole.

Messing up on things? Such as?

Game..set..and match. Come back when this isn't the case....but I will be dead by then.

Ah, so this is how morons win arguments. Reject half the argument and act like everyone else is stupid.

Edited September 5, 2010 by nicky10013

[bush_cheney2004]

Messing up on things? Such as?

US policy and mission for the invasion of Iraq.

Ah, so this is how morons win arguments. Reject half the argument and act like everyone else is stupid.

You typed it...not I. China continues to finance "American Exceptionalism", because it knows it can't even come close at this time. It can't even repatriate Taiwan! Sheesh.....

[nicky10013]

US policy and mission for the invasion of Iraq.

The US policy I didn't. As for the American Invasion of Iraq, I suppose you're right. The mission changed every time something went wrong. The administration attempted to move the goal posts again and again after it realized that it was doomed to failure after failure. Funny how all those missions all failed, from finding WMD to producing stable democracy.

You typed it...not I. China continues to finance "American Exceptionalism", because it knows it can't even come close at this time. It can't even repatriate Taiwan! Sheesh.....

China's financing American debt because they know eventually it'll be the trump card.

[bush_cheney2004]

The US policy I didn't. As for the American Invasion of Iraq, I suppose you're right. The mission changed every time something went wrong. The administration attempted to move the goal posts again and again after it realized that it was doomed to failure after failure. Funny how all those missions all failed, from finding WMD to producing stable democracy.

Enough of your horse's ass understanding of what/when/why things happened over the past 19 years. You are ignorant of basic facts readily available in the public record....up to and including President Obama's reluctant praise for the successful surge and change in tactics. Iraq has held democratic elections...but I suppose you will piss on them too.

Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 - Declares that it should be the policy of the United States to seek to remove the Saddam Hussein regime from power in Iraq and to replace it with a democratic government.

http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/US/Legislation/ILA.htm

China's financing American debt because they know eventually it'll be the trump card.

...still waiting...and waiting...and waiting....

Edited September 5, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[nicky10013]

Enough of your horse's ass understanding of what/when/why things happened over the past 19 years. You are ignorant of basic facts readily available in the public record....up to and including President Obama's reluctant praise for the successful surge and change in tactics. Iraq has held democratic elections...but I suppose you will piss on them too.

Ignorant of what facts? As for Iraq? Elections don't make a democracy. The USSR held elections, look how those turned out. Check out freedomhouse to see what they have to say of Iraqi democracy. It isn't good.

http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=363&year=2010

...still waiting...and waiting...and waiting....

Waiting for what? No one said this was around the corner. Pretending to the contrary is just more of the same stupid kind of behaviour.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ignorant of what facts? As for Iraq? Elections don't make a democracy. The USSR held elections, look how those turned out. Check out freedomhouse to see what they have to say of Iraqi democracy. It isn't good.

It's a lot better than what they had under Saddam. Are you stupid enough to not only insult the "US army" but also champion the return of Saddam to power?

Waiting for what? No one said this was around the corner. Pretending to the contrary is just more of the same stupid kind of behaviour.

Waiting for you to shift attention to China.....and away from my country. That will be hard, because if America fails, guess who will be the first to follow because of economic ties? And that's the main reason you watch us so much.

[nicky10013]

It's a lot better than what they had under Saddam. Are you stupid enough to not only insult the "US army" but also champion the return of Saddam to power?

No, that seems to be the US mission statement. You killed a million Iraqis to free them, but by leaving them without a government and in a state of what is essentially suspended civil war, not only did the US kill many, but have essentially doomed them to the same fate as before the US even arrived.

Waiting for you to shift attention to China.....and away from my country. That will be hard, because if America fails, guess who will be the first to follow because of economic ties? And that's the main reason you watch us so much.

More single dimenional thinking. Power is relative, it's a zero sum gain. Just because the US will be less powerful doesn't mean the economy will suddenly collapse and become destitute. Tell me, how bad off are the citizens of the UK? They seem to doing pretty well from where I can see.

[bush_cheney2004]

No, that seems to be the US mission statement. You killed a million Iraqis to free them, but by leaving them without a government and in a state of what is essentially suspended civil war, not only did the US kill many, but have essentially doomed them to the same fate as before the US even arrived.

Let's see..you can't count...you can't read public documents...you can't even recall your own nation's policies that bombed and strangled Iraq for the exact same reasons. Hell, do you even live in Canada, because you don't seem to know basic stuff. That or you are only 12 years old.

More single dimenional thinking. Power is relative, it's a zero sum gain. Just because the US will be less powerful doesn't mean the economy will suddenly collapse and become destitute. Tell me, how bad off are the citizens of the UK? They seem to doing pretty well from where I can see.

Depends on who you talk to...some really lament becoming a second rate power.

[nicky10013]

Let's see..you can't count...you can't read public documents...you can't even recall your own nation's policies that bombed and strangled Iraq for the exact same reasons. Hell, do you even live in Canada, because you don't seem to know basic stuff. That or you are only 12 years old.

Lancet estimates of Iraqi dead are at 1.3 million. over 4000 US military dead. 1500 US contractors dead, 31,000 US wounded. Seems I can count. I was being...as they say...conservative. As for what Canada did in 1991, I don't believe that was for domestic policy, rather in response to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, though. I can see how you could mistake the two. You know, the two reasons aren't even in the same ballpark.

Depends on who you talk to...some really lament becoming a second rate power.

Keep on changing the channel. It must really be getting uncomfortable for you.

Edited September 5, 2010 by nicky10013

[bush_cheney2004]

Lancet estimates of Iraqi dead are at 1.3 million. over 4000 US military dead. 1500 US contractors dead, 31,000 US wounded. Seems I can count. I was being...as they say...conservative. As for what Canada did in 1991, I don't believe that was for domestic policy, rather in response to the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, though. I can see how you could mistake the two. You know, the two reasons aren't even in the same ballpark.

You don't seem to remember UN sanctions, Canadian enforcement of sanctions, Canadian contracts, etc. after the Gulf War. You don't seem to know very much at all.

Keep on changing the channel. It must really be getting uncomfortable for you.

You are always watching our channels....how boring for you?

[nicky10013]

You don't seem to remember UN sanctions, Canadian enforcement of sanctions, Canadian contracts, etc. after the Gulf War. You don't seem to know very much at all.

Ah, so if the reason we went in 91 was for human rights how come the US army didn't topple Saddam then. You better watch out when saying someone doesn't know very much. Might end up biting you in the ass. Who am I kidding, it already has pretty much every time tonight.

you are always watching our channels....how boring for you?

More avoidance. How apt.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ah, so if the reason we went in 91 was for human rights how come the US army didn't topple Saddam then. You better watch out when saying someone doesn't know very much. Might end up biting you in the ass. Who am I kidding, it already has pretty much every time tonight.

Because it was told not to do so. Why didn't Canada do it? (Responsibility to Protect, yadda, yadda, yadda).

[bloodyminded]

Where we decide to draw the line in law, not your sanctimonious opinion.

What's this "we"? Americans, you mean?

You're not a policy-maker. Your personal affect on your nation's policies are negligible at best, roughly non-existent.