Islamic Demands for "Sensitivity" Over Cartoons Ring Hollow;

[Bonam]

it's a community centre, not a mosque.

Hey look, it's an alternative posting alias, not an alt.

[BubberMiley]

I can see why jbg is obsessed with muslims because he blames them for 911 and he never got over the humiliation of crapping his pants that day, but I'm not really sure why everybody else on this board is so obsessed. It seems to be playing into the radical element's desire for a culture war, if you ask me.

[jbg]

I can see why jbg is obsessed with muslims because he blames them for 911 and he never got over the humiliation of crapping his pants that day, but I'm not really sure why everybody else on this board is so obsessed. It seems to be playing into the radical element's desire for a culture war, if you ask me.

I am not "obsessed" with Muslims. I think it is important to realize when they Western world in which we inhabit has a very real problem. It is important as well to address it, not paper it over.

I think that when we have a culture within our midst that does not see eye to eye on our permissive, liberal way of life that we not ignore it as a problem. Our freedom of religion is not a suicide pact.

[M.Dancer]

it's a community centre, not a mosque.

not to say that this reaction towards the wrongly called project would be okay if it was a mosque.

•outstanding recreation spaces and fitness facilities (swimming pool, gym, basketball court)

•a 500-seat auditorium

•a restaurant and culinary school

•cultural amenities including exhibitions

•education programs

•a library, reading room and art studios

•childcare services

•a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community

•a September 11th memorial and quiet contemplation space, open to all

All mosques are community centres, this community centre has a mosque built right in it.

http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm

[jbg]

All mosques are community centres, this community centre has a mosque built right in it.

http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm

I'd feel beter about the "community center" or mosque if there was some ecumenical outreach to the greater community. For example, when our synagogue is under reconstruction we regularly use nearby church facilities for worship or other gatherings. If the Muslims open themselves up that way I am more likely to welcome the "community center" or mosque. Don't hold your breath though; on or about April 15, 1972 an interloper was beaten to death by worshipers in a Harlem mosque.

[Michael Hardner]

I'd feel beter about the "community center" or mosque if

How much better ? Would it change your mind ?

[Michael Hardner]

Yes, this thread seems like it was started for trolling.

If not, then Ratio, I invite you to stick around and read about freedom of expression, as it's defined in Canada and America. As a newbie, it's probably a better idea for you to read more than you post as your posts are getting swatted down by conservatives and liberals alike on this thread.

Hate speech in Canada has never meant that person insults delivered in private could actually be actionable. Some people do push for such things from time to time, but it hasn't happened to my notice.

Could you see how impossible it would be to enforce something like that ? For me to call up the police and have them arrest the lady at Albert's Caribbean Food because she muttered something to me under her breath ?

I'm a lukewarm supporter of such limits on speech, but your suggestion is ridiculous - it amounts to banning improper thoughts.

[jbg]

How much better ? Would it change your mind ?

If Muslims did this widely, absolutely. I want a material sign that the Muslim community is a contributing part of our society and not a detriment.

[Michael Hardner]

If Muslims did this widely, absolutely. I want a material sign that the Muslim community is a contributing part of our society and not a detriment.

Widely ? Give a number. You want a material sign that they are a contributing part of society ? That's a silly statement. Contributing how ? Paying taxes ?

Sorry, but I have a history of anti- types saying "if only ..." and not really being as open-minded or principle-based as they let on.

I have a memory of somebody posting something about "mainstream Muslims don't condemn terrorist acts", and when presented with evidence that they DO - well, surprise surprise he didn't change his opinion.

[Michael Hardner]

BTW - apologies to jpg. I didn't realize he started the thread, I thought it was Ratio's post above.

[dre]

I dont see the "contributing to society instead of being a detriment" litmus test being applied to atheists, or christians.

Muslims in the US behave much better than Muslims anywhere else in the world. For the most part they keep their noses clean, pay their taxes, and obey the law.

I also dont see the logic in connecting death threats over cartoons to the contruction of this temple. Christians are literally famous for making death threats against anyone that even slightly annoys them, and I dont see anyone opposing the contruction of Christian churches...

Heres a reference to another post of mine...

Virtually everyone that insults Christianity for example routinely recieves death threats. That goes for Hitchens, Dawkins, Jeremy Hall, etc. In fact... you dont even have to insult Christians to get death threats, you merely have to have a dissenting opinion from theirs.

http://amiable-athei...ath-threat.html

Even the authors of childrens books recieve death threats from Christians.

http://atheism.about...arry-potter.htm

And isnt this pleasant. The people who put up these billboards got death threats for merely trying to reach out to other atheists even though the content is not insulting at all.

http://current.com/n...t-billboard.htm

And these people dared to organize a festival for atheists... Death threats again.

http://www.secularst...s.org/node/2486

Religious people threaten death literally at the drop of a hat. Either thats a reason to stop letting them make sky-god worship centers or it isnt.... I dont particularly care. But the rules should be clear and uniformly applied.

Edited August 16, 2010 by dre

[Ratio]

Mr.Ratio...

You sound like one of the simpering bedwetters at Rabble.ca that thought shouting down the uproarious boor,Anne Coulter,was a preferrable response than actually debating her and calling her on her idiocy.Your insular thoughts on Free Speech sound like that of an immature child who does'nt have the intellectual capacity to deal with the uglier side of things,so it's easier for people like you to simply shut them up.Even worse,make it illegal...Talk about a thought and speech NAZI!!

So you think the Westergaard cartoons were racist and should never have been shown because they were offensive...I'll bet you think Mr.Westergaard should have been thrown in jail for those cartoons?

Have you ever seen the cartoons in Islamic papers depicting Christ and Christians???Jews???Non-Believers???

If you had,and you clearly have'nt,you might think twice about being openminded about the frail attitudes of some in the Islamic community...

nazi germany tolerated hate speech, see what happened?

Listen free speech NEVER CAN BE PROTECTED if it is based in hate. Stop the ignorance and bigotry.

This is 2010, words can hurt people, they can spread intolerence, racism and bigottry, we can,t have this in a multicultural country... if you want your freedom of hate speech go to nazi germany!

[M.Dancer]

nazi germany tolerated hate speech, see what happened?

Listen free speech NEVER CAN BE PROTECTED if it is based in hate. Stop the ignorance and bigotry.

This is 2010, words can hurt people, they can spread intolerence, racism and bigottry, we can,t have this in a multicultural country... if you want your freedom of hate speech go to nazi germany!

Stupidity hurts more...

[Jack Weber]

nazi germany tolerated hate speech, see what happened?

Listen free speech NEVER CAN BE PROTECTED if it is based in hate. Stop the ignorance and bigotry.

This is 2010, words can hurt people, they can spread intolerence, racism and bigottry, we can,t have this in a multicultural country... if you want your freedom of hate speech go to nazi germany!

The previous rant has been brought to you by The Thought Police!!!!

[Ratio]

Stupidity hurts more...

more then having to converse with a nazi sympathizer like you?

next you'll be telling me that people who say that blacks are different from whites genetically should be allowed to spread their venom because of freedom of speech ...

more like freedom of hate if you ask me...

[jbg]

Widely ? Give a number. You want a material sign that they are a contributing part of society ? That's a silly statement. Contributing how ? Paying taxes ?

I made clear what acts I wanted. I want them to make their places of worship part of the community the same way the Christian churches and Jewish synagogues now, by and large, are.

I have a memory of somebody posting something about "mainstream Muslims don't condemn terrorist acts", and when presented with evidence that they DO - well, surprise surprise he didn't change his opinion.

I posted that a few times, and still I don't believe that the Muslims' condemnation of violence is forthright or sincere. The opposition is usually to "violence" or "terrorism" in all its forms, usually designed to include Zionism.

Hardly an unequivocal commitment to non-violent debate as opposed to senseless attacks.

[Michael Hardner]

more then having to converse with a nazi sympathizer like you?

You just put yourself in jail, by your own decree.

Falsely declaring somebody a Nazi is likely actionable, no ?

[Michael Hardner]

I posted that a few times, and still I don't believe that the Muslims' condemnation of violence is forthright or sincere. The opposition is usually to "violence" or "terrorism" in all its forms, usually designed to include Zionism.

Hardly an unequivocal commitment to non-violent debate as opposed to senseless attacks.

You're not really convincing me that you would ever support them, by your own admission. You already posted that they should condemn violence, and yet you didn't believe them when you did ?

If you're not ever going to change your mind, then that is what it is. But don't keep holding the football out like Lucy for the Muslim Charlie Browns out there, only to pull it away when they try to kick.

[dre]

I posted that a few times, and still I don't believe that the Muslims' condemnation of violence is forthright or sincere. The opposition is usually to "violence" or "terrorism" in all its forms, usually designed to include Zionism.

So what? Its not your average muslims responsibility to apologize for the actions of extremism. Its his responsibility to obey the law and act in accordance with the rules in our society.

In the west we push individualism... the idea that individuals are responsible for their own behavior, and that society will honor rights on an individual basis. The odd thing is that in many cases the people that are normally hard core individualists are suddenly pushing some vague idea of "collective" religious responsibility and collective guilt.

No muslim that has (as an individuel) lived their lives according to our rules and been productive members of our society owes as a GOD DAMN THING. Not even a pinch of coon shit.

[Wilber]

nazi germany tolerated hate speech, see what happened?

Listen free speech NEVER CAN BE PROTECTED if it is based in hate. Stop the ignorance and bigotry.

This is 2010, words can hurt people, they can spread intolerence, racism and bigottry, we can,t have this in a multicultural country... if you want your freedom of hate speech go to nazi germany!

Freedom of speech is not everyone forced to say nothing but nice things to each other. It is the opposite. Freedom of speech goes hand in hand with the freedom to be offended. You can't have one without the other.

NAZI Germany allowed no other speech than its own version of the truth which was indeed hateful. You're saying we should restrict speech in our country to only what you consider politically correct on a particular day. Even though your intent may be the opposite, your method would be the same. That is not freedom of speech and is far more dangerous to a society you profess to want.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Wilber

[Jack Weber]

Ratio has Zig Zieglered himself....

[M.Dancer]

more then having to converse with a nazi sympathizer like you?

next you'll be telling me that people who say that blacks are different from whites genetically should be allowed to spread their venom because of freedom of speech ...

more like freedom of hate if you ask me...

I believe the dangers of controlling speach are greater than the dangers of letting someone upset you.

[M.Dancer]

more then having to converse with a nazi sympathizer like you?

This is hate talk....or moronic talk...

[dre]

I believe the dangers of controlling speach are greater than the dangers of letting someone upset you.

I agree with that philosophy however there always has been and always will be exceptions to it. If certain kinds of speech are causing a lot of problems the government doesnt have much choice but to limit them. Its easy to have a high minded principle with regards to free speech but when youre actually charged with keeping a society of free speakers functioning smoothly things arent that black and white.

[Remiel]

Either he is a troll, lictor disguised as a troll, or 14.