Khadr's jurors

[Molly]

That clause only marks Khadr as a recruit who should never have been; it doesn't define 18 as the end of childhood. Your argument was that Khadr was a "child soldier".

How about this: I'm a mother. Beyond any shadow of a doubt, 15 years of age is 'a child'. If you know any 15-year-olds that you figure are responsible adults, I respectfully suggest that you just don't know them very darned well.

[g_bambino]

How about this: I'm a mother. Beyond any shadow of a doubt, 15 years of age is 'a child'. If you know any 15-year-olds that you figure are responsible adults, I respectfully suggest that you just don't know them very darned well.

Why do I have to know any personally, and why do yours matter, in particular? For thousands of years, 15 year olds were considered well into adulthood; males and females, they were married, bore children, and began raising them. Only in the modern West have they gradually been downgraded to "children". Do you believe there's been some kind of human devolution in the past few hundred years?

[Sir Bandelot]

Khadr lawyer's collapse throws trial into disarray

BREAKING NEWS: The Guantanamo trial of Omar Khadr has been postponed for at least 30 days as his Pentagon-appointed defence attorney, army Lt.-Col. Jon Jackson, is flown to the United States for hospital care after collapsing in court Thursday.

Allahu Akbar

[Remiel]

Do you believe there's been some kind of human devolution in the past few hundred years?

I think it would be more accurate to say that there has been an evolution/revolution in the way issues are approached, not in the base genetic capabilities. Though, on that very issue, we now know a hell of a lot more about how people develop than we ever did before. Also, " they did it that way for thousands of years " is not a particularly good argument in this day and age, especially when we have made a habit of criticizing other cultures for doing things the same way they have done " for thousands of years " .

[g_bambino]

I think it would be more accurate to say that there has been an evolution/revolution in the way issues are approached, not in the base genetic capabilities. Though, on that very issue, we now know a hell of a lot more about how people develop than we ever did before. Also, " they did it that way for thousands of years " is not a particularly good argument in this day and age, especially when we have made a habit of criticizing other cultures for doing things the same way they have done " for thousands of years ".

I agree that the changes have been because of societal paradigm shifts rather than biological mutation. But I raise the fact that "they did it that way for thousands of years" not as some argument for the continuation of the practice; I offer it instead as proof that 15 year olds are capable of being more mature than some posters in this thread seem to believe.

Each individual is different, of course; and I believe their unique personal histories, circumstances, experiences, education, and present capabilities should be taken into account before believing whole-heartedly that they are "children" just because some UN clause fits them into that category (even though, in this particular case, none does). I find it exceedingly difficult to believe that, at 15, Omar Khadr was some naive waif who became a pitiable victim of circumstance.

[Oleg Bach]

Pretty simple....NATO has a license to kill.....Khadr doesn't.

I like the part when Allah strikes down Khadr's defence attorney who was going to set up the case to fail...what other act of God is on it's way? Oh and BC - only God has the legitimate license to birth and to KILL...for the rest of us it is illegal - Thou shall not kill..This applies to everyone - because it is a good and logical idea to avoid murdering our fellows.

[Guest American Woman]

How about this: I'm a mother. Beyond any shadow of a doubt, 15 years of age is 'a child'. If you know any 15-year-olds that you figure are responsible adults, I respectfully suggest that you just don't know them very darned well.

I'm a mother, too, and beyond any shadow of a doubt, my kids, at 15 years of age, knew that killing was wrong. If you know any 15 year olds who don't know this, then I suggest that they won't come to know it by turning 18.

I'm thinking we need to toughen our sentencing for minors convicted of murder, then we won't have to have this 'should they be tried as an adult' debate. They can be tried as minors, and still held accountable for the severity of their crime.

Edited August 14, 2010 by American Woman

[bush_cheney2004]

Oh and BC - only God has the legitimate license to birth and to KILL...for the rest of us it is illegal -

Why does "God" have the only legitimate license to kill? Send him on down here and let's see how long he/she lasts.

[Alta4ever]

How about this: I'm a mother. Beyond any shadow of a doubt, 15 years of age is 'a child'. If you know any 15-year-olds that you figure are responsible adults, I respectfully suggest that you just don't know them very darned well.

I have met many 20 year olds that are still children and far from responsible adults.

[Remiel]

I'm a mother, too, and beyond any shadow of a doubt, my kids, at 15 years of age, knew that killing was wrong. If you know any 15 year olds who don't know this, then I suggest that they won't come to know it by turning 18.

I do not know that the simple notion that " killing is wrong " is informative enough for this case. For one, NATO was not in Afghanistan for a picnic, that is for sure. They were there to kill people. And they did.

If I may be so crass as to continue with the use of your chidren as example, can you be so sure that just because they know that " killing is wrong " means that they would not still be influenced by you even if you joined a terrorist organization?

Being an adult lies not only in knowing the right things, but in having the strength and maturity to be able to tell your parents to frak off if they go apepoo. That is why it is significant that many of the jurors report that they own fathers directed their lives is very substantial and significant ways.

[Guest American Woman]

I do not know that the simple notion that " killing is wrong " is informative enough for this case. For one, NATO was not in Afghanistan for a picnic, that is for sure. They were there to kill people. And they did.

You do realize, since he's a Canadian, that NATO was Khadr's side, right? Seems to me you're justifying his taking up arms against his nation.

If I may be so crass as to continue with the use of your chidren as example, can you be so sure that just because they know that " killing is wrong " means that they would not still be influenced by you even if you joined a terrorist organization?

If I joined a terrorist organization, then I should be held accountable for raising a child in such an environment; for being abusive and creating a child soldier. That's not the case with Khadr; his parents have not ever been held accountable. I realize his dad is dead, but his mother is alive and well and living the good life in Canada, as her son was evidently raised to take up arms against NATO, so evidently your government doesn't see it that way. So if Khadr is guilty, who do you think should be held accountable/responsible?

Being an adult lies not only in knowing the right things, but in having the strength and maturity to be able to tell your parents to frak off if they go apepoo. That is why it is significant that many of the jurors report that they own fathers directed their lives is very substantial and significant ways.

And the day one turns 18 they are no longer influenced by the way they were raised? They have the maturity to tell their parents to "frak off?" I hardly think so. Many 15 year olds have no problem telling their parents to frak off, and they do it on a daily basis, while many 40 year olds would not have the strength to do so.

Edited August 14, 2010 by American Woman

[eyeball]

I agree that the changes have been because of societal paradigm shifts rather than biological mutation. But I raise the fact that "they did it that way for thousands of years" not as some argument for the continuation of the practice; I offer it instead as proof that 15 year olds are capable of being more mature than some posters in this thread seem to believe.

My only argument with this is that this 15 year old's mind had been messed with and so badly screwed over that there is no way he had the faculties an appropriately raised and well adjusted mature 15 year old.

Each individual is different, of course; and I believe their unique personal histories, circumstances, experiences, education, and present capabilities should be taken into account before believing whole-heartedly that they are "children" just because some UN clause fits them into that category (even though, in this particular case, none does). I find it exceedingly difficult to believe that, at 15, Omar Khadr was some naive waif who became a pitiable victim of circumstance.

What about when he was 8? To hear you put it there must be some age at which kids became aware that they are being led astray at which point you think or believe they should become legally liable for continuing down that path. What age should that be 9 or 10 maybe?

[eyeball]

I'm a mother, too, and beyond any shadow of a doubt, my kids, at 15 years of age, knew that killing was wrong.

You mean you didn't tell them it was okay and good to kill people and fill their heads full of a bunch of religious/political crap from the age of 7 or 8? Good for you.

I'm a father and my kids all know Omar Khadr was and still is the victim of a bunch of people whose head's are full of a bunch of religious/political crap. I also have a grandchild on the way and you can bet he/she is going to know this too, at the earliest possible age.

[eyeball]

Being an adult lies not only in knowing the right things, but in having the strength and maturity to be able to tell your parents to frak off if they go apepoo.

Kids need to know they can do this. In our society kids are always taught to obey their parents. I don't recall ever being taught inside or outside the family that there might be times when it is not appropriate to obey my parents. I'd like to see information being provided to kids through schools or targeted ads that tell kids what to be on the look for so they can tell when this is the case.

That is why it is significant that many of the jurors report that they own fathers directed their lives is very substantial and significant ways.

That is interesting, assuming these were all raised appropriately and know the difference between a good father and a bad one and the effect this can have on a person's judgement later in life...maybe Khadr will have a chance.

[Army Guy]

If I may be so crass as to continue with the use of your chidren as example, can you be so sure that just because they know that " killing is wrong " means that they would not still be influenced by you even if you joined a terrorist organization?

I think we all know by now that most children are influenced alot by adult contact though out their young lives. We as parents pray to the gods that we have given them the tools and knowledge to make the best possiable choices...regardless of what they have been taught or influenced within the home or aquaintainces the outside world still needs to hold them accountable for their actions.... Just because dad was a serial killer does not mean it's ok to carry on the family tradition,according to western standards....But he was not raised by western standards, infact he was raised by a twisted religious standard in which killing infidels was not only OK but expected...And at the time and place of afghanistan this was the norm....Perhaps the west needs to send a message.

I'm a father and my kids all know Omar Khadr was and still is the victim of a bunch of people whose head's are full of a bunch of religious/political crap. I also have a grandchild on the way and you can bet he/she is going to know this too, at the earliest possible age.

In this case we making excuses up for him as we do for other criminals, his dad beat him , he was molested when he was a child, he was poor, his dad was a terrorist, etc, etc, and as terible as those events were, we as a nation still need to hold that him responsable for their actions....Murder is murder.

We also need to stop holding him to Canadian standards, he is Canadian in passport only, he has no Canadian values, morals, in fact has grew up hating every thing our culture stands for....but that same Canadian culture he hates so much does offer him freedom, freedom from the harsh laws he help install, freedom to from being held responsable for his actions, freedom from ever having to work for a living, freedom to live off the very systems fat he faught so hard to destroy.....

And while Omar may of been a victim of circumstances, he still needs to face the piper for what he has done. a mssage needs to be sent out that killing infidels is not a sport, or a life style to aspire to but rather on that comes with a price to be paid if your caught.

[M.Dancer]

Why does "God" have the only legitimate license to kill? Send him on down here and let's see how long he/she lasts.

Hear hear!

[eyeball]

I think we all know by now that most children are influenced alot by adult contact though out their young lives.

Despite this knowledge you still want to punish kids for the actions of their parents.

This is no different than going after civilians for the actions of their governments.

Perhaps the west needs to send a message.

It sounds like the message you want to send is, fuck over your kid's upbringing and we'll fuck over your kid.

That's just plain mean man.

[Army Guy]

Despite this knowledge you still want to punish kids for the actions of their parents.

Not punish them for actions of their parents....although i'm all for bringing in Mom and stringing her up by "well you know" What i said is punishing Omar for actions he commited...

This is no different than going after civilians for the actions of their governments.

It's not even close...if your dad was a serial killer, and you as a 15 year old child took up being a serial killer should you get a free ticket because his dad was a retard....or should he face the courts...there is no free rides, he should face the courts for any and all laws he has broken.

It sounds like the message you want to send is, fuck over your kid's upbringing and we'll fuck over your kid.

NO the message is clear, break the law and you will be charged and face the courts....and we don't want to hear about your sad stories about how your dad was a terrorist, your mom was a religious fanitic....your whole family is twisted....

That's just plain mean man.

Is it mean, my government say's it OK to shoot the likes of Omar on a regular basis, there is no debate on "well his upbringing was not good", his dad was an ass, his mom, well thats another story.....instead you apply 3.5 lbs presure on the trigger and it's done...and no one says a damn word....the story stops in some isolated patch of Afghan....

Now we travel back to Canada and all of a sudden he becomes a real person , that we should care about....he is a Canadian citzen you animal, how could you shoot him, he's just a boy.....A piece of paper does not make you Canadian ....to me he will always be a terrorist...one who has engaged coalition troops in combat....nothing more...

[bloodyminded]

Why do I have to know any personally, and why do yours matter, in particular? For thousands of years, 15 year olds were considered well into adulthood; males and females, they were married, bore children, and began raising them. Only in the modern West have they gradually been downgraded to "children". Do you believe there's been some kind of human devolution in the past few hundred years?

So, there should be no more statutory rape laws?

Also, 15 year olds should be able to buy liquor, vote and so on?

If not...why not?

Edited August 17, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Bonam]

So, there should be no more statutory rape laws?

Also, 15 year olds should be able to buy liquor, vote and so on?

If not...why not?

I think some of you guys are too old. When were you last 15 years old? I remember being 15 well. I understood what the heck I was doing 100%. Same at 13, in fact.

Should 15 year olds be able to buy liquor? Sure, why not. Many countries in Europe allow people to purchase alcohol at 16 years old, and have no laws against drinking at younger ages. They are doing fine, if anything, alcoholism is a greater problem in the US, where it is officially "illegal" until 21, so people instead have to do it in forests, dark alleys, etc, instead of in the safety of their homes or their friends homes or local pubs. Moreover it becomes a part of the culture that people have to begin binge drinking at 21 because of such laws. Anyway, if 16 works fine in several European countries, do you really think lowering it by one year would make a big difference?

As for "statutory rape", you do realize that our laws (in Canada) basically allow for individuals as young as 12 to have consensual sex right? This makes sense, it is right around the age at which people begin reaching physiological sexual maturity.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Bonam

[eyeball]

What i said is punishing Omar for actions he commited...a 15 year old child...

That he was taught to commit from the age of 8. That's not just mean, its evil.

How on Earth did so many Canadians fall so far so fast? It's just such a goddamn waste.

[bloodyminded]

I think some of you guys are too old. When were you last 15 years old? I remember being 15 well. I understood what the heck I was doing 100%. Same at 13, in fact.

"Understood" is a subjective term for adults...moreso when speaking of a 15 year old. I did things at 15 I would not do now, because of a better understanding of consequences.

I also raised three of them, and I tried to teach them the understanding of "adult" consequences for their actions; but at no time did i look at my 15 year olds and consider them "bad" in the same way as an adult if they did something wrong.

In fact, all parents understand this, easily.

It's only other people's children who should be held to higher standards.

Should 15 year olds be able to buy liquor? Sure, why not. Many countries in Europe allow people to purchase alcohol at 16 years old, and have no laws against drinking at younger ages. They are doing fine, if anything, alcoholism is a greater problem in the US, where it is officially "illegal" until 21, so people instead have to do it in forests, dark alleys, etc, instead of in the safety of their homes or their friends homes or local pubs. Moreover it becomes a part of the culture that people have to begin binge drinking at 21 because of such laws. Anyway, if 16 works fine in several European countries, do you really think lowering it by one year would make a big difference?

It's a reasonable point, but it always comes back to the same questions: if 15, why not 14? It's still only a year. And if 13, why not 12?

The same applies for trying minors as adults. Is their a cut-off age where this should never be done? Is it 11? 6?

At any rate, I use the "rights and priveleges" analogy only for the sake of expressing the "punishment" aspect in a way that people can understand; that is, unlike yourself (who seems to have a more rational view in such matters) most people who adore the idea of trying youths as adults absolutely despise the notion of giving youths adult rights and priveleges.

This underlines a profoundly statist vision of society, in which people without adult rights can nevertheless be punished as adults.

This is in fact a serious misunderstanding of what a free, law-abiding society IS: you can't be demanded to have adult responsibilities if you don't have adult rights. Seriously, it's a misapprehension of what our society IS, on a fundamental, even a philosophical, level.

Bonam, you are clearly not of this camp, and I'm glad.

As for "statutory rape", you do realize that our laws (in Canada) basically allow for individuals as young as 12 to have consensual sex right? This makes sense, it is right around the age at which people begin reaching physiological sexual maturity.

But a 12 year old isn't commiting statutory rape for having sex with a 12 year old. Statutory rape applies to adults having sex with minors (though usually, and as it should be, leeway is given in tight cases...no 18 year old should be prosecuted for consesual sex with 16 year old, for example. But a thirty year old and a thirteen year old? Sure, that's statutory rape.)

Edited August 18, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Army Guy]

What i said is punishing Omar for actions he commited...a 15 year old child...

Thats not my quote, I said he he should be held accountable for his actions ....And like it or not , 15 year olds here in Canada are held responsable for thier actions in our courts...and depending on the charges are treated as adults...nobody gets a free pass so why should Omar ?

That he was taught to commit from the age of 8. That's not just mean, its evil.

How on Earth did so many Canadians fall so far so fast? It's just such a goddamn waste.

It is not evil in the culture he was raised in , but the norm, so why does Omar deserve a free ticket, to be wrapped in a blanket and breast fed by our nation, because of his age, lets Wake TFU, do other Canadian citizens get a free ticket at age 15...so why does Omar deserve this speacial treatment. In fact if it concerns you so much why have you not started something to hold his mother and family responable , to be charged with child abuse at the very min.....and deport her ass back to native country....

Canadians have not fallen at all, this 15 year old was involved with and supporting the enemy in an armed conflict with our nation.... some pretty serious shit....and you want us to forgive and forget, let him and his happy clan live next door, while continuely spewing their haterd for me and Canadian values and culture...no thanks...maybe it's time someone spoke up and just said pack your bags, heres your ticket welcome to the refugee camps in Afghanistan....

[eyeball]

Thats not my quote, I said he he should be held accountable for his actions ....And like it or not , 15 year olds here in Canada are held responsable for thier actions in our courts...and depending on the charges are treated as adults...nobody gets a free pass so why should Omar ?

You said he should be punished for his actions.

Being held accountable is not the same as being held responsible. Khadr has accounted for his actions by pointing to the deliberately deviated upbringing he received at the hands of his parents from at least the age of eight. Parents should be held responsible for the results of this sort of upbringing and failing that our country for not ensuring parents are doing their jobs.

As I pointed out earlier, at the very least our society should be giving kids the tools they need to tell when they should not obey or listen to their parents.

[M.Dancer]

You said he should be punished for his actions.

Being held accountable is not the same as being held responsible.

Yes it is. There is a secondary meaning which means to explain.

ac·count·a·ble (-kount-bl)

adj.

1. Liable to being called to account; answerable. See Synonyms at responsible.

2. That can be explained: an accountable phenomenon.

Khadr has accounted for his actions by pointing to the deliberately deviated upbringing he received at the hands of his parents from at least the age of eight.

That is an explanation...not yet delivered in court. Even so, while that may be taken into account, he still must face his own pwersonal responsibility.