Under what circumstances should the veil be banned in public?

[Machjo]

In the poll, I've distinguished between those who wear the veil for religious reasons and those who wear it for secular reasons since I believe there are some in here wold would likely make that distinction and just want to see if my hunch is right.

For those who weren't aware, there are in fact non-Muslim women, perhaps even some who have no religion at all, who do wear the veil. There is one example here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0SsYD2yRsk

And here's another video of a non-Muslim hijabi and her reasons why, along with photos of beautiful hijab styles, regardless of the religion or faith of the wearer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXLp2DFO-CU&feature=related

I'm curious to see where this poll will go. Enjoy.

[Machjo]

Just to clarify by the way, the veil is not the same as the burqa or the niqab.

[Handsome Rob]

If it's contrary to laws of the land, such as preventing Identification when voting, entering the country, youngster's ID'd for booze, etc.

Beyond that, what's the point in caring what other people do when it doesn't harm us?

-Do we have a massive problem with the entire nation 'having the gay gene' and getting married? No, why care about gay marriage?

-Do we have a gun control problem? No, why care about useless firearms regs?

-Does Canada face a problem of imminent Islamic theocracy? No, why care about this?

-Does fast food have negative effects on the financial stability of the health care industry? Yes, those that choose to partake, should pay for it in the same manner of smokers and drinkers.

-Does wearing a turban on a motorcycle represent undue risk to the health care industry? Yes, they should be treated as people that choose not to wear protective equipment, or the beanie 'helmet.'

I don't understand this line of thinking, having to manage other peoples affairs that have nothing to do with one. Can somebody explain it to me?

Perhaps one day it will be an issue, to date I've seen perhaps 4 dozen veil's, burqa's, niqab's & otherwise.

Religious practices should be, below the rule of law, and their to stay. Under all circumstances. Beyond that, who cares?

[Moonlight Graham]

this poll makes no sense. the answers are weird.

[bebe]

I oppose any laws about what people can wear on their face.

In Japan it is common for people with cold/flu to wear sanitary masks in public, esp on trains.

We might be wise to adopt that practice too.

http://forums.sgclub.com/singapore/japan_masks_sold_168212.html

Sandstorms are another reason some might cover their face.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35959965/

In winter we wear balaclavas and scarves over our faces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaclava_%28clothing%29

When it's really cold, wear a face mask or a scarf over your mouth to warm the air you breathe and protect your face.

http://running.about.com/od/safetyweather/tp/coldweathersafety.htm

It used to be common for grieving widows to wear a veil, and is still in some cultures.

http://fevertreedesign.com/gr/wp-content/plugins/wp-shopping-cart/product_images/veilhat.jpg

A bandana soaked in vinegar is desirable for protests where tear gas may be used

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=24684287

Some protesters are packing their bags with vinegar-soaked bandanas, ear plugs and gas masks, getting ready for any police violence they might encounter.

And good grief ... what about big sunglasses and hats pulled down low/collars up high - the classic celeb. 'disguise'!

http://www.sunglassesoverglasses.com/

Next thing you know, the cops will be measuring your sunglasses to see if they are too big, and high collars and hat brims will be outlawed.

Truth is ... this whole kerfuffle about 'veils' is ridiculous and purely racist.

You cannot have one law for Muslim women and another for children wearing scarves in winter to prevent frostbite, or people trying to avoid spreading germs.

I say ... get over it!

[Sir Bandelot]

And what does "Banned" mean? What are the consequences of wearing a veil, when it is banned? Get arrested?

Banning would be going too far. If there are situations in which the face of the person must be seen, for ID purposes then let them momentarily remove the veil. There is no need to criminalize a piece of clothing that is culturally important to muslim women.

Let us not go down the same road as the French chauvinists.

[Topaz]

In the last election in Afghanistan, the news told of women who do cover their faces, but, DID reveal their faces when voting. I was kinda shocked because of the big deal that is made over here in the West about these women not wanting to show their faces at the voting booths.

[Bonam]

The veil should be removed when identification is needed, so that one may clearly see the face. Private premises should be able to dictate the style of dress that is acceptable within their premises, as they see fit. Aside from this, people should be able to wear what they wish.

[eyeball]

I answered other answer - I think Muslim men should be forced to wear blinders in public.

[dre]

If it's contrary to laws of the land, such as preventing Identification when voting, entering the country, youngster's ID'd for booze, etc.

Beyond that, what's the point in caring what other people do when it doesn't harm us?

-Do we have a massive problem with the entire nation 'having the gay gene' and getting married? No, why care about gay marriage?

-Do we have a gun control problem? No, why care about useless firearms regs?

-Does Canada face a problem of imminent Islamic theocracy? No, why care about this?

-Does fast food have negative effects on the financial stability of the health care industry? Yes, those that choose to partake, should pay for it in the same manner of smokers and drinkers.

-Does wearing a turban on a motorcycle represent undue risk to the health care industry? Yes, they should be treated as people that choose not to wear protective equipment, or the beanie 'helmet.'

I don't understand this line of thinking, having to manage other peoples affairs that have nothing to do with one. Can somebody explain it to me?

Perhaps one day it will be an issue, to date I've seen perhaps 4 dozen veil's, burqa's, niqab's & otherwise.

Religious practices should be, below the rule of law, and their to stay. Under all circumstances. Beyond that, who cares?

If it's contrary to laws of the land, such as preventing Identification when voting, entering the country, youngster's ID'd for booze, etc.

Bingo. Thats exactly what I said in the other thread. Theres no reason at all to "ban" articles of religious clothing, but there are numerous situations where compelling someone to temporarily remove it is reasonable.

[dre]

The veil should be removed when identification is needed, so that one may clearly see the face. Private premises should be able to dictate the style of dress that is acceptable within their premises, as they see fit. Aside from this, people should be able to wear what they wish.

Exactly right.

[Remiel]

If the rules in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan permit that there are circumstances in which a women may be forced to remove her veil, that is good enough justification for me to say that they should be obliged to remove it when considered necessary over here. Complete bans of clothing, however, still seem to be a bad idea.

[Remiel]

Private premises should be able to dictate the style of dress that is acceptable within their premises, as they see fit.

I have to disagree with this. Why should the law enable people who are racist to work the system over by banning clothing rather than people?

[Handsome Rob]

I have to disagree with this. Why should the law enable people who are racist to work the system over by banning clothing rather than people?

So you're suggesting somebody that owns a salon shouldn't be able to prevent an Islamic woman from concealing her face, or not be able to turn down the the employment application without fear of reprisal for 'discrimination?'

[Bryan]

You should not be allowed to hide your face in most public settings, regardless of the reason. Especially places like stores, schools, and banks.

[Yesterday]

from my perspective, it is an awful custom and I think I like this answer the best

eyeball

Posted Today, 01:44 AM

I answered other answer - I think Muslim men should be forced to wear blinders in public

Hopefully a few generations after settling down here and the girls will refuse to wear it. These women who want to wear this, a lot of them anyway, come from an area were anonymity can be a lifesaver. Regardless of religion, it keeps them safer from unwanted advances of men. Not perfect but effective to a certain degree. I imagine they feel naked without them. Like a security blanket, a right to privacy, a comfort.

IMO in Canada, no. Some people who leave destruction/war torn countries to achieve a bit of personal freedom and end up here seem to lose the point of moving in the first place. I've learned a bit about how I feel regarding multiculturalism from reading around on the forum and as far as I am concerned people of different origins moving here doesn't bother me at all but losing Canada to the religions and customs, especially ones that have caused such heartache and wrongness in their own countries, of these people is wrong. It does take time though to release fear, especially one driven by religion or old customs. They have had time to rationalize a million reasons for wearing them.

I think back to long conversations I have had with my Grandmother and others of her age. Just look at ourselves, 5-6-7th generation Canadian's, there were some customs floating around up until the early 1900s that make me shiver. In the name of our religions/social customs...without going into detail, most peoples who ended up here had some not so pleasant customs to be rid off. Thankfully a few generations of settling/freedom and that transformation started. Generally speaking, I don't think we resemble our ancestors to any great degree, at least socially and religiously.

I hope this is what happens to the Muslim and other peoples that move here. This is what Canada is. It is a place were a person can feel free to shed all religious/socially negative and constricting customs. Freedom is what we are. Not free to turn parts of Canada into little replicas of homelands that needed to be fled from but free to start again and rewrite ourselves. To me this is what being Canadian means.

[ToadBrother]

I hope this is what happens to the Muslim and other peoples that move here. This is what Canada is. It is a place were a person can feel free to shed all religious/socially negative and constricting customs. Freedom is what we are. Not free to turn parts of Canada into little replicas of homelands that needed to be fled from but free to start again and rewrite ourselves. To me this is what being Canadian means.

So part of freedom is restricting what a person wears? I'm kind of confused here.

[Remiel]

So you're suggesting somebody that owns a salon shouldn't be able to prevent an Islamic woman from concealing her face, or not be able to turn down the the employment application without fear of reprisal for 'discrimination?'

The way Bonam stated it made it sound like simple entrance could be denied to people wearing hijab (not veil), turban, sari, whatever the traditional garb of orthodox jews is, and so on...

But I am unsure of the validity of your example, because it is my impression that no woman who was devout/fundamentalist enough to wear the veil would be seeking such employment.

[Leafless]

this poll makes no sense. the answers are weird.

Just like most of the political debates in this forum.

[Remiel]

Just like most of the political debates in this forum.

Yours foremost.

[Handsome Rob]

The way Bonam stated it made it sound like simple entrance could be denied to people wearing hijab (not veil), turban, sari, whatever the traditional garb of orthodox jews is, and so on...

But I am unsure of the validity of your example, because it is my impression that no woman who was devout/fundamentalist enough to wear the veil would be seeking such employment.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/06/17/salon-scarf.html

A Canadian hair salon owner who refused to hire a Muslim stylist in a headscarf has been ordered by a British tribunal to pay roughly $8,000 in damages.

Sarah Desrosiers, who is originally from Windsor, Ont., had argued the stylist wasn't a good fit at her trendy salon in London, England, because she needs her employees to show off their funky hairstyles. Desrosiers, who moved to Europe a decade ago, said her stylists are essentially modelling their own haircuts for their clients.

When "Multi-culturalism" gets turned into, 'free money.'

[g_bambino]

I have to disagree with this. Why should the law enable people who are racist to work the system over by banning clothing rather than people?

Since when was clothing a racial characteristic?

This confusion between race and culture significantly hinders efforts made to find a resolution to these matters; it enables that odious but powerful race card to be played far too easily in a game in which it never belonged.

That said, I don't see why the hijab needs any regulation; it's just a scarf worn in a style non-Muslim women have for a century or more sometimes sported in the West. The niqāb and burka, on the other hand, are a totally different matter because they conceal the face so as to render it difficult to read and/or recognise the individual.

[dre]

Since when was clothing a racial characteristic?

This confusion between race and culture significantly hinders efforts made to find a resolution to these matters; it enables that odious but powerful race card to be played far too easily in a game in which it never belonged.

That said, I don't see why the hijab needs any regulation; it's just a scarf worn in a style non-Muslim women have for a century or more sometimes sported in the West. The niqāb and burka, on the other hand, are a totally different matter because they conceal the face so as to render it difficult to read and/or recognise the individual.

Thats only a problem in cases where the individual has to be "read" or "recognized" though and still not a reason for any kind of clothing ban. They should be compelled to remove it for something like a drivers license photo or something but beyond that nothign is required.

[PIK]

I oppose any laws about what people can wear on their face.

In Japan it is common for people with cold/flu to wear sanitary masks in public, esp on trains.

We might be wise to adopt that practice too.

http://forums.sgclub.com/singapore/japan_masks_sold_168212.html

Sandstorms are another reason some might cover their face.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35959965/

In winter we wear balaclavas and scarves over our faces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaclava_%28clothing%29

When it's really cold, wear a face mask or a scarf over your mouth to warm the air you breathe and protect your face.

http://running.about.com/od/safetyweather/tp/coldweathersafety.htm

It used to be common for grieving widows to wear a veil, and is still in some cultures.

http://fevertreedesign.com/gr/wp-content/plugins/wp-shopping-cart/product_images/veilhat.jpg

A bandana soaked in vinegar is desirable for protests where tear gas may be used

http://news.ca.msn.com/top-stories/cbc-article.aspx?cp-documentid=24684287

Some protesters are packing their bags with vinegar-soaked bandanas, ear plugs and gas masks, getting ready for any police violence they might encounter.

And good grief ... what about big sunglasses and hats pulled down low/collars up high - the classic celeb. 'disguise'!

http://www.sunglassesoverglasses.com/

Next thing you know, the cops will be measuring your sunglasses to see if they are too big, and high collars and hat brims will be outlawed.

Truth is ... this whole kerfuffle about 'veils' is ridiculous and purely racist.

You cannot have one law for Muslim women and another for children wearing scarves in winter to prevent frostbite, or people trying to avoid spreading germs.

I say ... get over it!

It is not racist,that is what the left likes to say,but really it is abuse.Do you think that muslim women wearing a burka in 100f weather is doing it because she wants to, no because she will probably get a beating the minute she got home. A beating in canada for not wearling a burka, real nice.

[Yesterday]

So part of freedom is restricting what a person wears? I'm kind of confused here.

No, I didn't explain myself well. I don't mean to restrict but I agree with the premise of removal for identity and if in the case of employment or social interaction where the covering is inappropriate to Canadian work/social expectations then they who wish to wear them here should do so without complaining about being left out. This is Canada, we expect to see faces in daily interactions and from our standpoint of personal freedom a mask/face covering is a reason to suspect.

In non public spaces do what you will as long as it is Canadian law abiding. However, in daily work and general social life it is to be a Canadian citizen and fit in with the Canada perspective. One thing the Canadian perspective I think can claim is that it is open and transparent. I realize at the moment we are fighting non-transparency but we are fighting it. From bigotry to molestation, from religious deforming of genitals to scientific conformity, and so on. To me at the very least, this veil is a means of restriction of female expression, perhaps at times I can view it strongly enough to see it as outright degradation. Especially when I contemplate the punishments for women who try to remove their veils. As mentioned in other posts here, even at home the veils are coming off for this reason and that, no reason to retard the trend here. The social in-acceptance we are starting to see will go a long way towards religious/social reform with any luck. I don't think accepting it here on our turf will do any good in the long term towards helping Muslims come to terms with the need to overhaul their customs like almost every other religious culture has had to over the millennium.