Republican wants the US to be more like Saudi Arabia

[dre]

Ummmmm........

You always claim you aren't blaming everything on the US, but then your posts say otherwise...

the problem is that right after you say you aren't blaming the US, you begin posting about how everything is our fault and that's why they hate us, as you post about the millions we've killed. You may not mean to be blaming the U.S., but any reasonable reader is going to see those things as blaming the US as well as creating hyperbole regarding the number of deaths. So really, your posts do say that the U.S. has killed five million people in spite of your claims otherwise, and any reasonable reader can see that.

No thats all just horse-shit.

Heres my origional post on the matter.

The only time the US is even mentioned is in the end and it has nothing to do with blame, but imagining how other people would feel about living with the kind of foreign aggression and interference people in the middle east live with.

Its full of "the west", and "we", and "us".

The only reason the topic shifts towards the US is because when I looked for statistics on anti-western sentiment in the middle east all I could find was stats on anti-US sentiment.

People have pointed out that theres been various conflicts going back centuries, but I dont think thats the real issue. I dont think Islam is the real issue either.

I think the main issue is natural resources.

Basically we have the following relationship with the middle east...

They are the scrawny unscrupulous crack dealer... And we are the brawny addict that will do anything to get a fix.

Youll notice that we dont just have problems with Arabs or Muslims... we have problems with the populations of many of the countries we get natural resources from, whether those resources are gold, daimonds, oil, etc.

If the west didnt have this dependence on oil then the relationship would be a lot different. Most of these people would barely know who we are, and there would be a lot less water under the bridge.

Its not too tough to see why they dont like us really. Just make an honest attempt to put yourself in the shoes of an Arab in the middle east. Imagine how for example Americans would react to a foreign super power constantly maintaining a military presense in the US to facilitate the removal of natural resources. Imagine how Americans or Canadians would react to a foreign super power keeping large nuclear fleets parked off of our shores. Imagine how Americans or Canadians would react to that foreign super power enabling and funding oppresive elements in our own society.

These people would be IDIOTS if they didnt hate us.

[dre]

Ummmmm........

You always claim you aren't blaming everything on the US, but then your posts say otherwise...

the problem is that right after you say you aren't blaming the US, you begin posting about how everything is our fault and that's why they hate us, as you post about the millions we've killed. You may not mean to be blaming the U.S., but any reasonable reader is going to see those things as blaming the US as well as creating hyperbole regarding the number of deaths. So really, your posts do say that the U.S. has killed five million people in spite of your claims otherwise, and any reasonable reader can see that.

So really, your posts do say that the U.S. has killed five million people in spite of your claims otherwise, and any reasonable reader can see that.

Idiotic horse shit. I never even mentioned the term five million, that was somebody else.

Heres what I said...

Those are all big numbers, and the numbers are driven by US participation in regional wars that have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people over there. And those wars are driven by our dependance on oil.

Show me how a "reasonable reader" can get this...

your posts do say that the U.S. has killed five million people in spite of your claims otherwise, and any reasonable reader can see that.

out of this...

Those are all big numbers, and the numbers are driven by US participation in regional wars that have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people over there. And those wars are driven by our dependance on oil.

The "reasonable reader" would have to invent a whole bunch of stuff that isnt there. Like the "Five Million" figure that I never even mentioned". Then they would have to invent the part where I blame the US for all those deaths because I dont even come close to doing that.

Sounds to me like your definition of "reasonable reader" is actually "someone that cant read", or "someone that reads stuff that isnt there", or "someone that accidently attributes a FIVE MILLION cite to one poster that was made by another poster"

[dre]

you begin posting about how everything is our fault and that's why they hate us, as you post about the millions we've killed.

Ok... how about show me where I said ANY of that stuff, or admit you made a mistake?

Show me where I said "everything is your fault".

Show me where I said "you killed millions".

I dont blatantly lie about your positions like you are trying to do here. I challenge you to show me where I said ANY of that.

[Guest American Woman]

No thats all just horse-shit.

Heres my origional post on the matter.

It doesn't matter what your original post was, and it doesn't matter what you said; the only thing that matters is what you keep posting about, and what that says. When I say something outright regarding my views and someone claims I think the opposite, and you defend that person in spite of what I plainly said I believe, you will be given the same respect, and your denial will be given the same consideration. And in that regard, seriously, your posts tell me that you blame the U.S. and that you think the U.S. has killed millions. And again, "any reasonable reader," those are your exact words, "can see that."

So keep claiming that you don't blame the US, that you don't believe we killed millions, but your accusatory posts say otherwise.

I dont blatantly lie about your positions ....

You most definitely did.

[Shady]

Show me where I said "you killed millions".

Easy. Your assertion was that the numbers of millions killed were driven by US participation. That's a direct quote. Which is insane. You're just part of the blame America first crowd, while at the same time siding with the world's worst dictators who've participated in the killing of tens of millions of people. I hate you people.

[dre]

It doesn't matter what your original post was, and it doesn't matter what you said; the only thing that matters is what you keep posting about, and what that says. When I say something outright regarding my views and someone claims I think the opposite, and you defend that person in spite of what I plainly said I believe, you will be given the same respect, and your denial will be given the same consideration. And in that regard, seriously, your posts tell me that you blame the U.S. and that you think the U.S. has killed millions. And again, "any reasonable reader," those are your exact words, "can see that."

So keep claiming that you don't blame the US, that you don't believe we killed millions, but your accusatory posts say otherwise.

You most definitely did.

It doesn't matter what your original post was, and it doesn't matter what you said

Well actually yeah, it DOES matter when youre making direct claims about what I said.

Heres what you said...

you begin posting about how everything is our fault and that's why they hate us, as you post about the millions we've killed.

Those are BLATANT LIES that you know you cant back up. Show me where I "began posting about how everything is your fault and thats why they hate us".

Again... heres another direct claim about he content of my posts... More blatant lies.

Can you back up ANY of your bullshit lies and accusations?

My post didnt even have anything to do with the US. It was about how the west aquires natural resources, and how our dependence on a natural resource that is found where lots of Arab Muslims live, has us in an intractible mess over there.

So really, your posts do say that the U.S. has killed five million people in spite of your claims otherwise, and any reasonable reader can see that.

You most definitely did.

More horseshit, and more lies. And when you "thought" I was misrepresenting your opinion, I replied and told you exactly why I read your post that way.

Youre making direct and specific claims about things I said, and then refusing to show me support for those claims. Youre lying through your teeth, and I dont really understand why.

[dre]

Easy. Your assertion was that the numbers of millions killed were driven by US participation. That's a direct quote. Which is insane. You're just part of the blame America first crowd, while at the same time siding with the world's worst dictators who've participated in the killing of tens of millions of people. I hate you people.

No that wasnt my claim at all. Here it is right here...

Those are all big numbers, and the numbers are driven by US participation in regional wars that have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people over there. And those wars are driven by our dependance on oil.

Youre inventing stuff just like AW, and Ill demostrate it for you right now...

Heres your claim... Youre suggesting that I said the killing was driven by US participation.

Your assertion was that the numbers of millions killed were driven by US participation

But heres what I actually said...

Those are all big numbers, and the numbers are driven by US participation in regional wars that have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people over there. And those wars are driven by our dependance on oil.

I said that the Anti-US sentiment in the polls I posted "was driven by US participation".

Your claim of what I said, and what I actually said are two completely different things.

My post wasnt even anti-american. I didnt even express an opinion as to whether or not those wars were justified or smart things to do, just that US involvement in them has resulted in the anti-US sentiment expressed in that Zogby poll.

And the poll itself says the same thing.

[dre]

Your assertion was that the numbers of millions killed were driven by US participation. That's a direct quote.

No... thats not a direct quote. This is a direct quote...

Those are all big numbers, and the numbers are driven by US participation in regional wars that have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people over there. And those wars are driven by our dependance on oil.

The real quote doesnt say the deaths are driven by US participation. It says anti-US sentiment is driven by US participation.

Again, two completely different things.

[Guest American Woman]

More horseshit, and more lies. And when you "thought" I was misrepresenting your opinion, I replied and told you exactly why I read your post that way.

Youre making direct and specific claims about things I said, and then refusing to show me support for those claims. Youre lying through your teeth, and I dont really understand why.

"Thought" you were misrepresenting my opinion?? As for your "support" for your claims, I've supported my claims as well as you "supported" yours.

So while it may be your opinion that I'm lying, I'm not, because I see your numerous posts about how many people have been killed, how horrible the U.S. is, how many people hate the U.S., etc. as saying exactly what I claim you are saying, and I told you how I'm arriving at that conclusion; what criteria I'm basing it on. So I don't know how you can't understand.

Let me remind you of our exchange and repeat that I'm giving your denial the same consideration you have given me.

....the idea that people are "defending" this verdict is off the wall. No one is defending the verdict, just defending Israel for being shed in the light that it is over this issue. It's unfounded and, as I said, unfair.

I've clearly stated that I'm not "defending" the verdict, I'm not even so much defending the law, I'm defending Israel for the way this was presented.

Have I not clearly stated, in plain English, that I'm not defending the verdict??

Yet bud chimes in with:

ALL you do is justify everything israel does. even this racist conviction. people can see right through you.

To which I replied:

This response is proof that you're nothing but an idiot. Seriously. What does "I'm not defending this verdict" say to you? I'd like to know, for my own knowledge, how much you're able to comprehend; or more accurately, not able to comprehend.

Then you jumped in and claimed I was defending the verdict, and falsely accusing me of saying I'm always claiming that I'm not defending Israel, when clearly I stated it was Israel, not the verdict, that I was defending:

You always claim you arent defending Israel in these threads or justifying their actions, but then you post classic defacto defenses...

[...]

And so on... Those are classic, garden variety DEFENSES.

You might not mean to be defending the underlying act, but any reasonable reader is going to see those things as defenses, excuses, and justifications. And its not their "reading comprehension" that is at fault for that.

[...]

I guess we're all just idiots that cant read.

So I repeat. You might not mean to be blaming the U.S. and creating hyperbole regarding the number killed, but any reasonable reader is going to see your posts as blaming the US for killing millions, and it's not "lying" on our part that is at fault for that.

[dre]

"Thought" you were misrepresenting my opinion?? As for your "support" for your claims, I've supported my claims as well as you "supported" yours.

So while it may be your opinion that I'm lying, I'm not, because I see your numerous posts about how many people have been killed, how horrible the U.S. is, how many people hate the U.S., etc. as saying exactly what I claim you are saying, and I told you how I'm arriving at that conclusion; what criteria I'm basing it on. So I don't know how you can't understand.

Let me remind you of our exchange and repeat that I'm giving your denial the same consideration you have given me.

What I actually said was...

Those are all big numbers, and the numbers are driven by US participation in regional wars that have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people over there. And those wars are driven by our dependance on oil.

Theres no mention of "5 million" in there, and no placing blame on America for any deaths. I simply re-iterated the exact same thing that was in the poll I posted.

Yet bud chimes in with:

To which I replied:

Then you jumped in and claimed I was defending the verdict, and falsely accusing me of saying I'm always claiming that I'm not defending Israel, when clearly I stated it was Israel, not the verdict, that I was defending:

So I repeat. You might not mean to be blaming the U.S. and creating hyperbole regarding the number killed, but any reasonable reader is going to see your posts as blaming the US for killing millions, and it's not "lying" on our part that is at fault for that.

So I repeat. You might not mean to be blaming the U.S. and creating hyperbole regarding the number killed, but any reasonable reader is going to see your posts as blaming the US for killing millions, and it's not "lying" on our part that is at fault for that.

Well yeah it is blatantly lying.

You claimed that I posted the number "5 million", when that actually came from another poster.

Thats a blatant lie.

You also claimed that I blamed the US for all of those deaths.

Thats another blatant lie.

What I actually said was...

Those are all big numbers, and the numbers are driven by US participation in regional wars that have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people over there. And those wars are driven by our dependance on oil.

Theres no mention of "5 million" in there, and no placing blame on America for any deaths. I simply re-iterated the exact same thing that was in the poll I posted.

You either flat out lied about what I had posted, or you made a mistake then didnt want to own up to it. End of story.

[Guest American Woman]

Well yeah it is blatantly lying.

Nope, I didn't lie. You may not have meant to say those things, but your numerous posts say it. To any "reasonable reader." And that's what I said. I just turned your words, your judgments, back on you.

If you think you're the only one who can assign beliefs to other posters in spite of what they said they believe, if you think you're the only one who can say they don't mean what they said, and then defend the person who accused them of saying what they clearly said they don't believe, think again.

I used to believe you thought what you said you think; now I believe you think what your numerous posts indicate that you think. Seriously. And to me, your constant posts criticizing the U.S. and constant hyperbole regarding deaths, say that you blame the U.S. for millions of deaths, and I can see that I'm not the only one who sees it that way; that any "reasonable reader can see it."

But by all means, keep accusing me of lying, when all I did was turn your words, your judgment, back on you. I find it quite amazing that it's apparently the truth when you accuse me of beliefs I clearly stated I don't have, but "blatant lying" when I apply the same standards to you.

You might want to take a look at your own behavior before you lash out at me.

Edited July 27, 2010 by American Woman

[Sir Bandelot]

If you think you're the only one who can assign beliefs to other posters in spite of what they said they believe, if you think you're the only one who can say they don't mean what they said, and then defend the person who accused them of saying what they clearly said they don't believe, think again.

I used to believe you thought what you said you think; now I believe you think what your numerous posts indicate that you think.

Man, no wonder people think you think what you said you actually don't think.

[Sir Bandelot]

Offend Latinos? Surely does not matter from someone as unimportant as me. Newt Gingrich on the other hand, and his ilk, have no problem offending many US muslims.

But thanks to powerful people like Newt Gingrich, US will become just like Saudi Arabia.

Immigrant Groups to be Fingerprinted

Mentally ill deported without legal aid

Senators want troops along U.S. border

http://i890.photobucket.com/albums/ac101/Bandelot/SovietTroops.jpg

What is the definition of irony.

[bush_cheney2004]

Offend Latinos? Surely does not matter from someone as unimportant as me. Newt Gingrich on the other hand, and his ilk, have no problem offending many US muslims....

That's OK...Newt is allowed to do this as an American. Or do you want to muzzle him like Anne Coulter in Canada?

Edited July 27, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Machjo]

Seems like a dumb plan to me, it certainly isn't want the founding fathers wanted, and it isn't what made America the world power house it is today. I guess that it is just the Republican plan for intolerance.

http://www.salon.com/news/newt_gingrich/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2010/07/21/gingrich_we_should_be_like_the_saudis

To we defeat the enemy by becoming the enemy we so despise. Brilliant.

[dre]

Nope, I didn't lie. You may not have meant to say those things, but your numerous posts say it. To any "reasonable reader." And that's what I said. I just turned your words, your judgments, back on you.

If you think you're the only one who can assign beliefs to other posters in spite of what they said they believe, if you think you're the only one who can say they don't mean what they said, and then defend the person who accused them of saying what they clearly said they don't believe, think again.

I used to believe you thought what you said you think; now I believe you think what your numerous posts indicate that you think. Seriously. And to me, your constant posts criticizing the U.S. and constant hyperbole regarding deaths, say that you blame the U.S. for millions of deaths, and I can see that I'm not the only one who sees it that way; that any "reasonable reader can see it."

But by all means, keep accusing me of lying, when all I did was turn your words, your judgment, back on you. I find it quite amazing that it's apparently the truth when you accuse me of beliefs I clearly stated I don't have, but "blatant lying" when I apply the same standards to you.

You might want to take a look at your own behavior before you lash out at me.

If you think you're the only one who can assign beliefs to other posters in spite of what they said they believe, if you think you're the only one who can say they don't mean what they said, and then defend the person who accused them of saying what they clearly said they don't believe, think again.

Say what? What the fuck does that even mean?

Those two situations arent comparable. In the other thread I explained to you that although you said you were not "defending" the verdict/law/israel and so on, that you were following it up with common literal techniques of defense. I quoted them... and showed you what they were, and explained to you how they might be read. At the very most I was wrong about your intent.

In this thread though you flat out fabricated shit that I did not say, and have never said... like the "5 million dead" quote you attributed to me (which someone else said). Specific direct accusations which you then refused to back up.

And to me, your constant posts criticizing the U.S. and constant hyperbole regarding deaths, say that you blame the U.S. for millions of deaths

And these "constant hyperbole regarding deaths" posts... where are they exactly?

Edited July 27, 2010 by dre

[bush_cheney2004]

To we defeat the enemy by becoming the enemy we so despise. Brilliant.

Yes...it was very effective against Japan and Germany. V-J Day is coming up!

Edited July 27, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Machjo]

Yes...it was very effective against Japan and Germany. V-J Day is coming up!

Japanese Canadians had nothing to do with Japan. Even the Canadian military had stated that they were not a threat to Canadian national security. Yet for reasons of political expediency we put them in camps anyway because that's what the Canadian people wanted, right or wrong, even though it had no strategic military value at all, the only value being political pandering to the electoral base.

I see the same here.

[bush_cheney2004]

Japanese Canadians had nothing to do with Japan.....

I see the same here.

This is not a coincidence! Declaring military zones and marshall law is very legal. See October Crisis and War Measures Act in Canada as well.

Happy V-J Day....Boom!

[DogOnPorch]

Yes...it was very effective against Japan and Germany. V-J Day is coming up!

USN open house?

[WIP]

So Gingrich believes that religious freedom should be based on whether Saudi Arabia has religious freedom.

Wow, that's fucking brilliant.

Even Sarah Palin didn't go that far, and she endorses fascist literature.

I have to admit, even I was shocked by the extent over the faux outrage about the "Ground Zero Mosque," especially considering that it isn't a mosque, it's a full service cultural center and it's not at Ground Zero! According to New Yorkers in the know, a YMCA nearby at 92nd Street has a synagogue in the facilities, but that facility doesn't get labeled as a Jewish enclave. Nevertheless, that does not stop the Right when they have an opportunity to instill more fear and hostility among their little white suburban plebes.

Over the last almost ten years since 9/11, the worst reactionary tendencies were kept in check by Republicans in power. The crazies were marginalized by being cut off from access to Republican leaders. With no commanding voice of authority over an authoritarian movement with fascist tendencies, the ones who talk the loudest and most vitriolic, get the most attention. There have been a handful of sane conservative voices like David Frum and Reihan Salam, expressing concern lately over the hysteria against Blacks, Muslims and Mexicans of late, but any talk of moderation...or sanity for that matter, gets drowned out by the next crazy statement from Glenn Beck or Tea Party leaders....or they get refudiated by Queen Wingnut Sarah. In opposition, the Republican leaders have a vested interest in encouraging the worst from their supporters, especially when they have a Black President to focus their rage upon.

Of late, we are learning that the big money is leaving the Democrats and going back to their natural home in the Republican Party. And that includes the astroturf organizations, such as the one founded by Karl Rove, which gets virtually all of its money from four billionaires.....money talks! Now, when the time comes for the Corporate Party to retake power from the Corporate Lite Party, the new rightwing leadership will try to tamp down the rhetoric again by reconnecting rightwing media access to keeping their rhetoric under control and following the Republican line. In the Bush Age, this strategy worked on lapdogs like Sean Hannity and Rush, but not on the crazies like Glenn Beck and Michael Savage. If the Repubs get their new Reagan, we'll see if he is able to get them all back in line again. My suspicions are that the times are too volatile for the next Republican president in 2012 or 2016 to get everybody back on message.

[bloodyminded]

Easy. Your assertion was that the numbers of millions killed were driven by US participation. That's a direct quote. Which is insane. You're just part of the blame America first crowd, while at the same time siding with the world's worst dictators who've participated in the killing of tens of millions of people. I hate you people.

Good lord. Let's decode this madness.

Dre, who has never "sided with the world's worst dictators," is somehow "siding with the world's worst dictators."

Meanwhile, the rich Western nations--and yes, certainly the United States, about whose reputation you're so sensitive--HAS sided with some of the world' worst dictators.

Yes, yes, i can predict the response--the West "has to" side with the world's worst dictators...even as you imply it never does, of course.

Meanwhile, our friend Dre, who never sides with the world's worst dictators, IS siding with the world's worst dictators.

Unlike the UNited States, and presumably Canada, the UK, et al, all of whom love Freedom and so on, and would never side with the tyrants that they actually side with.....well, somehow, it must be Dre......

Edited August 1, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Guest American Woman]

I have to admit, even I was shocked by the extent over the faux outrage about the "Ground Zero Mosque," especially considering that it isn't a mosque, it's a full service cultural center and it's not at Ground Zero! According to New Yorkers in the know, a YMCA nearby at 92nd Street has a synagogue in the facilities, but that facility doesn't get labeled as a Jewish enclave.

Just a couple of comments here, regarding your comments. First of all, Cordoba Initiative is an Islamic center, and a mosque is very much a part of it. Secondly, as has been pointed out over an over, the only reason it's able to exist in that spot is because of the actions of other destructive, violent, murderous Muslims.

Which brings me to your comments about the YMCA.

First of all, the YMCA isn't in existence in that spot due to the violent actions of other Christians. Which brings me to my second point: YMCA stands for Young Men's Christian Association, so of course it wouldn't get labeled as a Jewish enclave. By the same token, if the Cordoba Initiative were to include a Christian church, the center wouldn't be referred to as a Christian enclave.

But there are no plans for a christian church in the Cordoba Initiative, so the point you are trying to make is moot.

[Remiel]

Do you not think that to ban a mosque from the site would be a huge insult to the memory of the Muslims who were killed by the hijackers on 9/11? Are they not American enough to be honoured or remembered or counted?

[bush_cheney2004]

Do you not think that to ban a mosque from the site would be a huge insult to the memory of the Muslims who were killed by the hijackers on 9/11? Are they not American enough to be honoured or remembered or counted?

Not any more than any other victims, American or not...and certainly not in a religious context for each victim's "faith".

...now this would be an insult:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/funnypictures/ig/100-Funny-Pictures/New-World-Trade-Center.htm