Republican wants the US to be more like Saudi Arabia

[bush_cheney2004]

It is good to see it pointed out how much in common American terrorists from the 18th century are to Islamic revolutionaries of the 21st.

Not a problem...may the best (worst) revolutionaries win. Your monarchy is already out of the game.

[Sir Bandelot]

Building a mosque on the site of Islamic conquest, or what could be considered an Islamic triumph, is political and not religious. Islamacists were responsible for the disaster and any symbology that might be construed as a triumph over the west should not be permitted.

But is it an islamic triumph? My view it is unfair to call it that.

It is a triumph of radical islam, yes? Radical islam has to be marginalized.

So the right thing to do is to encourage the millions of moderate muslims, in America and around the world, to marginalize them. In fact if we push away the moderates out of anger for the radicals, just gives them another victory.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[Pliny]

The Islamic empire reached it's height and Golden age several hundred years after Muhammad died. They didn't start to deteriorate until the sack of Baghdad in the mid 13th century. I'm wondering how they simultaneously managed to deteriorate and at the same time create the largest empire in the world at the time?

There is the conquest and the building of the Empire that is exhilarating, and agreeably a time of expansion and development, then there is the decline that stuck them in the twelfth century - the height of the Empire - the golden time of perfection. It didn't take long before Baghdad was sacked.

Any state of perfection is to be preserved and that is when the stagnation sets in.

Stalin and Castro established the perfect socialist societies and spent the last decades of their dictatorships preserving them with barbed wire, cement walls and bullets so others couldn't get in and live the good life.

[Pliny]

But is it an islamic triumph? My view it is unfair to call it that.

It is a triumph of radical islam, yes? Radical islam has to be marginalized.

So the right thing to do is to encourage the millions of moderate muslims, in America and around the world, to marginalize them. In fact if we push away the moderates out of anger for the radicals, just gives them another victory.

Islam must govern according to it's tenets. I believe that all religions have the intent to rule the world and thus they must remain separate from government. A person may hold religious beliefs and hold government office but he has no right to make a law regarding any establishment of religion but only in the States where the Constitution expressly states that.

We can make laws regarding an establishment of religion in Canada so we have the potential of becoming a theocracy.

[Sir Bandelot]

Any state of perfection is to be preserved and that is when the stagnation sets in.

Stalin and Castro established the perfect socialist societies and spent the last decades of their dictatorships preserving them with barbed wire, cement walls and bullets so others couldn't get in and live the good life.

And now we also have Bush, Obama, and the US...

[bush_cheney2004]

And now we also have Bush, Obama, and the US...

Is that because you have no other choice? Or refuse to make one?

[Sir Bandelot]

Is that because you have no other choice? Or refuse to make one?

No, that because you really have no choice now, in the United Soviets of America

[bush_cheney2004]

No, that because you really have no choice now, in the United Soviets of America

That's OK.....I'm watching you.....always watching the USA anyway.

[Guest American Woman]

No, that because you really have no choice now, in the United Soviets of America

You know, I honestly believe you can't be happy unless you believe that. So yep. That's us. Repressed. No freedoms. Lousy economy. We're a miserable lot. Sucks to be us!

Have a happy day.

[Guest American Woman]

Its not too tough to see why they dont like us really.

[...]

These people would be IDIOTS if they didnt hate us.

It all depends on who "they" are, really, since there are many, many people in these nations who do like us, but they don't have the voice that those blowing people up have. It wouldn't hurt to listen to them,too, because they aren't "idiots" by any means, and they have just as much a right to their opinion as those who hate us.

If the west didnt have this dependence on oil then the relationship would be a lot different. Most of these people would barely know who we are, and there would be a lot less water under the bridge.

They would know who we are, because of the good that we do; the humanitarian acts on their behalf. You are wrong to assume that "they" all hate us.

[Guest TrueMetis]

There is the conquest and the building of the Empire that is exhilarating, and agreeably a time of expansion and development, then there is the decline that stuck them in the twelfth century - the height of the Empire - the golden time of perfection. It didn't take long before Baghdad was sacked.

Any state of perfection is to be preserved and that is when the stagnation sets in.

They managed to last some 500 years, not bad.

Stalin and Castro established the perfect socialist societies and spent the last decades of their dictatorships preserving them with barbed wire, cement walls and bullets so others couldn't get in and live the good life.

And if the Islamic empire had done that maybe they would have lasted longer, that would have been in the complete opposite direction they had been going though.

[Sir Bandelot]

You know, I honestly believe you can't be happy unless you believe that. So yep. That's us. Repressed. No freedoms. Lousy economy. We're a miserable lot. Sucks to be us!

Have a happy day.

Thanks. Of course I will!

Because I'm not a Latino living in United Soviets of America.

[bush_cheney2004]

Thanks. Of course I will!

Because I'm not a Latino living in United Soviets of America.

...yet they are still trying to get in every day to join the club...just like Canadians!

[dre]

It all depends on who "they" are, really, since there are many, many people in these nations who do like us, but they don't have the voice that those blowing people up have. It wouldn't hurt to listen to them,too, because they aren't "idiots" by any means, and they have just as much a right to their opinion as those who hate us.

They would know who we are, because of the good that we do; the humanitarian acts on their behalf. You are wrong to assume that "they" all hate us.

It all depends on who "they" are, really, since there are many, many people in these nations who do like us, but they don't have the voice that those blowing people up have. It wouldn't hurt to listen to them,too, because they aren't "idiots" by any means, and they have just as much a right to their opinion as those who hate us.

Its not just those that "blow people up" that have a negative view of the west. Its your average citizen on the "arab street"... thats the problem. Anti-western sentiment isnt a fringe or extremist position there. Its not universal but its very very high.

And its highest against countries that have been involved in various regional middle east conflicts.

Like I said... our "addict/dealer" relationship with them underlies almost all of this hositily. We have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people over there in the name of keeping the oil flowing, and we have enabled and funded brutal repressive regimes, like the Saudi Royals, Saddam Husseign, and various other autocrats, and dictators.

Our involvement in wars over there is biggest factor in how they view us...

In 2002 and in mid-2004 Zogby International polled the favorable/unfavorable ratings of the U.S. in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco and the United Arab Emirates. In Zogby's 2002 survey, 76% of Egyptians had a negative attitude toward the United States, compared with 98% in 2004. In Morocco, 61% viewed the country unfavorably in 2002, but in two years, that number has jumped to 88 percent. In Saudi Arabia, such responses rose from 87% in 2002 to 94% in June. Attitudes were virtually unchanged in Lebanon but improved slightly in the UAE, from 87% who said in 2002 that they disliked the United States to 73% in 2004.[83] However most of these countries mainly objected to foreign policies that they considered unfair.[83]

You can see the numbers in there... polling data shows not only is Anti-US sentiment extremely high, but got even higher as the US engaged in hostilities in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Egypt: 74% unfavorable opinion of the US before OPERATION: OOPS! and 98% after.

Saudi Arabia: 87% before, 94% after.

UAE: 84% - 73%

Those are all big numbers, and the numbers are driven by US participation in regional wars that have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people over there. And those wars are driven by our dependance on oil.

The Zogby poll focuses on the US but youll see similar trends towards the west in general.

They would know who we are, because of the good that we do; the humanitarian acts on their behalf. You are wrong to assume that "they" all hate us.

You grossly misunderstand the sentiment over there. It becomes obvious when try to paint a the picture that the only ones that hate us are the ones "blowing people up". A more accurate picture would be that the reason those violent extremists are able to operate in the middle east is because theyre ideas actually have broad public support even though there methods at times dont. They are able to operation, recruit, and fundraise because anti-western sentiment on the arab street is very very strong.

Edited July 26, 2010 by dre

[Guest American Woman]

Thanks. Of course I will!

Because I'm not a Latino living in United Soviets of America.

Since you're apparently too oblivious to realize it, you just insulted a lot of American Latinos and legal Latino immigrants. But they do say ignorance is bliss, so I'm sure you'll have a very happy day indeed.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Those are all big numbers, and the numbers are driven by US participation in regional wars that have killed hundreds of thousands or millions of people over there. And those wars are driven by our dependance on oil.

Yea...MILLIONS and MILLIONS killed! Oh my!

Did you check Albania?

[dre]

Yea...MILLIONS and MILLIONS killed! Oh my!

Did you check Albania?

Thats not what I said. I estimated "hundreds of thousand or millions". Theres no really good data on exact numbers killed in various wars over there.

[Guest American Woman]

Seems like a dumb plan to me, it certainly isn't want the founding fathers wanted, and it isn't what made America the world power house it is today. I guess that it is just the Republican plan for intolerance.

I'm not sure he meant his comments to be taken literally. It sounds more like hyperbole to me; like someone who is fed-up and frustrated with the way things are. But then, I never thought "freedom fries" were to be taken seriously, either, so one never knows. However, he is practicing what the founding fathers wanted, and that's his freedom of speech; his right to speak what's on his mind, regardless of whether or not the founding fathers would approve of what he's saying.

[bush_cheney2004]

Thats not what I said. I estimated "hundreds of thousand or millions". Theres no really good data on exact numbers killed in various wars over there.

You have no idea how many have been killed, or the varied circumstances so it is easier to blame all deaths on the USA.

Carry on....

[dre]

You have no idea how many have been killed, or the varied circumstances so it is easier to blame all deaths on the USA.

Carry on....

I dont even know what posts youre responding to. I just admitted I dont know how many have been killed. Thats why my estimate was intentionally vague.

And I didnt blame all the deaths on the USA.

[bush_cheney2004]

I dont even know what posts youre responding to. I just admitted I dont know how many have been killed. Thats why my estimate was intentionally vague.

And I didnt blame all the deaths on the USA.

What the hell...let's call it an even 5 million all because of the USA. Don't foget all that foreign aid for Israel...now that really pisses "them" off.

[dre]

What the hell...let's call it an even 5 million all because of the USA. Don't foget all that foreign aid for Israel...now that really pisses "them" off.

What the hell...let's call it an even 5 million all because of the USA

Call it what you want, but thats your opinion not mine.

[bush_cheney2004]

Call it what you want, but thats your opinion not mine.

So was it OK to kill Serbs in defense of "them"...or was that bad too? And what about Rwanda? Another "mistake?

Shucks...."we" are damned if we do...damned if we don't.

[Guest American Woman]

I dont even know what posts youre responding to. I just admitted I dont know how many have been killed. Thats why my estimate was intentionally vague.

And I didnt blame all the deaths on the USA.

Call it what you want, but thats your opinion not mine.

Ummmmm........

You always claim you aren't blaming everything on the US, but then your posts say otherwise...

the problem is that right after you say you aren't blaming the US, you begin posting about how everything is our fault and that's why they hate us, as you post about the millions we've killed. You may not mean to be blaming the U.S., but any reasonable reader is going to see those things as blaming the US as well as creating hyperbole regarding the number of deaths. So really, your posts do say that the U.S. has killed five million people in spite of your claims otherwise, and any reasonable reader can see that.

Edited July 26, 2010 by American Woman

[dre]

So was it OK to kill Serbs in defense of "them"...or was that bad too? And what about Rwanda? Another "mistake?

Shucks...."we" are damned if we do...damned if we don't.

I never even touched on that subject. I never made any judgements on whether or not there was good reasons for participating in all those conflicts. I just explained that the majority of people over there dont like us very much and thats one of the main reasons.

The fact is that whether some of the stuff the west has done over there is justified or not or whether theres good reasons for it or not, there is consequences to them for these actions and consequences for us too. Intelligence agencies call these consequences "blowback".