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Tories scrapping long form census


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The next on a list of things the Tories have done lately that flat out disgust me. The census has been a hallmark of civilization for about 2000 years and pretty much every secular country in the world uses is for VERY good reason. It's a helpful tool for policy makers and helps people get a good idea of what areas and types of people need help the most.

EDIT:

It seems I was rather ignorant on the subject. Having read a little further about it, I feel like it makes sense. The current census as it currently stands is a fair bit more invasive than I had thought.

Edited by Moonbox
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The next on a list of things the Tories have done lately that flat out disgust me. The census has been a hallmark of civilization for about 2000 years and pretty much every secular country in the world uses is for VERY good reason. It's a helpful tool for policy makers and helps people get a good idea of what areas and types of people need help the most.

I can't for the life of me fathom why the CPC would take a stand on this issue, when they've been no friend of privacy in the past. I seem to remember them siding with the US on copyright laws a few years back instead of Canadian privacy. Why chose now, and on such a backwards issue, to take privacy seriously???

Why even a census?

If it is so important won't people pay for the data?

Private collections etc...?

Does the government make money from this, why not, what use is it?

Edited by William Ashley
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Why even a census?

If it is so important won't people pay for the data?

Private collections etc...?

Does the government make money from this, why not, what use is it?

It helps the government determine public policy. Knowing what the average income throughout various regions of Canada, for example is very useful information for the government to have. Knowing the number of children households have is another useful tidbit for helping to determine where schools need to be built and what sort of immigration is necessary to support our aging population.

There are hundreds of examples for how this information can be used to the betterment of Canada.

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It helps the government determine public policy. Knowing what the average income throughout various regions of Canada, for example is very useful information for the government to have. Knowing the number of children households have is another useful tidbit for helping to determine where schools need to be built and what sort of immigration is necessary to support our aging population.

The examples you have provided above can easily come from the information on a family's tax return.

The tax return provides address including postal code, dates of birth of all family members, net income, taxable income etc... so the long form isn't necessary for the collection of this data.

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The next on a list of things the Tories have done lately that flat out disgust me.
Here's a case where I agree with the Tories (although I wonder whether Harper is sending Clement out alone to fight Darth Vader as a way to, well, ... )

First, the long form is no longer accurate - and the statistician/academic/university types don't know this, or prefer not to believe it. GIGO (Garbage in, garbage out).

Second, the long form (even the short form) is open to abuse, or slanted answers. I often argue that a census form is more valuable to a citizen than a ballot in an election. A long census form is like getting named to the Senate. (If you're confused, consider how government subsidies are determined in Canada and then compare a ballot in a federal election and a census form.)

Third, we too often only consider a government tax when it takes money from us. What about a government policy that takes our time? When Canadians take a day off work and wait in an ER waiting room for an afternoon (or more), is that not also a "tax"? When Canadians - small businesses in particular - must complete tax forms (or hire accountants to do this), is this not a tax also?

IOW, when the government takes your time to complete a form with stupid questions, it is a tax. (The long census form is a strange tax because it falls randomly on 20% of Canadians. I would argue that at least, the other 80% should pay those who complete the long form, say, 50$ for the effort.)

Fourth, does the State need all this information? Why? For what purpose? I would prefer to live in a society where the individual is protected and the State is as small as necessary.

Fifth, when the Statistics Canada has lots of data, this just encourages more academic researchers to request more taxpayer money to investigate more nonsense. I say cut them off at the fork in the road.

------

If I were Clement/Harper in this situation, I would get ahead of the curve (unlike the fiasco of the Ontario Summits).

The Tories should explain that the 2011 census will collect about the same information from Canadians as the census in 1961 or 1971. Statistics Canada requires complete information - but not more. Under Liberal governments, requests for information have grown gargantuan without any benefit.

The census has been a hallmark of civilization for about 2000 years and pretty much every secular country in the world uses is for VERY good reason.
At its origins, a census merely counted people - usually for tax purposes.

Canada's modern census has grown far, far beyond that. It has become a juggernaut and worse, its size (like government itself) gives a false sense of accuracy and security.

-----

The Conservatives are dead right on this call. I hope they stick to their guns.

Edited by August1991
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Canada's modern census has grown far, far beyond that. It has become a juggernaut and worse, its size (like government itself) gives a false sense of accuracy and security.

I did not realize that. I know a lot of groups have been upset with this and personally I really don't see why people are so upset to have to fill out a few pages of information to give to the gov't.

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I did not realize that. I know a lot of groups have been upset with this and personally I really don't see why people are so upset to have to fill out a few pages of information to give to the gov't.

They "lost" my info three times in two years, so tell me if you think I should be concerned. The last time they came to my house with their little clipboards (to follow up because I throw the form in the shredder), the little half-wit tried to use the "it's a federal offence to refuse" BS to which I answered "feel free to charge me". They never came last year.

Any organization that can lose information of that nature doesn't deserve to receive it in the first place. I will never fill one out again.

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Here's a case where I agree with the Tories (although I wonder whether Harper is sending Clement out alone to fight Darth Vader as a way to, well, ... )

-----

The Conservatives are dead right on this call. I hope they stick to their guns.

Once again the Conservative Gov't is finding itself at odds with all the experts. It's incredible how many times this has happened - Maternal health funding, long gun registry, etc...

What's the big deal?

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They aren't scrapping it but are making it optional instead of mandatory. You people baffle me. Just a couple of weeks ago you socialists were saying that Canada is like a Police State for the way it's taking away peoples freedoms during the G20 and now you support the government knowing every intimate detail of your lives? Which is it? I'm confused.

The form will still be sent out so if you want to fill it in go ahead if you don't want to then don't we now have a choice. Before it was mandatory and enforced by the police dept. coming to your door and phoning you to make sure you handed it in if you failed to.

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Mr. Canada...shut up. I'm not a socialist....Moonbox definitely isn't a socialist.

That's all you got? Nothing else? Just name calling? Well you've proven how deep your gene pool is, congrats.

Now, explain to me why you call Canada a Police State in one breath then say you want the government knowing all our intimate information in the next while the Tories are making the form optional in order to limit what the government knows about our private lives. Explain that please. Which is it?

Edited by Mr.Canada
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I didn't call you any names. You on the other hand prove your level of intelligence every time you refer to someone as a socialist.

I invite you to find a comment from me on either of the topics you mentioned. I also invite you to find evidence that Moonbox is a socialist.

Edited by Smallc
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They "lost" my info three times in two years, so tell me if you think I should be concerned. The last time they came to my house with their little clipboards (to follow up because I throw the form in the shredder), the little half-wit tried to use the "it's a federal offence to refuse" BS to which I answered "feel free to charge me". They never came last year.

Warren Kinsella also stood up to the census police.

"I don't want the government asking questions about my family," Mr. Kinsella says. "I am not losing any sleep over [the change]. I don't think you threaten an election campaign over it either."

Mr. Kinsella reveals how he once refused to fill out the long-form questionnaire, which asks Canadians more than 50 detailed questions about their home, work life and ethnicity.

Ultimately, he said, the census takers simply gave up trying to make him complete it. "When I got the long form census many years ago, I thought it was very intrusive," he said.

He said he challenged census staff to punish him. "I said 'I am not going to change my mind. Put me in jail. I dare you'," Mr. Kinsella explains. "So they gave me an exemption."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/warren-kinsella-census-refusenik/article1642379/

He's saying it's an affront to privacy rights, an opinion I agree with.

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You've yet to directly respond to the bulk of my post.

1. They aren't scrapping it just making it optional.

2. Many people were making claims that Toronto was a police State during the G20 and that Canada had no more freedom, blah blah blah. Now that the Tories have made the long census form optional, thus protecting our privacy the same people are complaining about that now. So they complain when the police take our freedoms away and also complain when the government gives us more freedom...hilarious.

3. So which is it? Do we have too much freedom in Canada or not enough based on point number 2? You people cannot have it both ways.

Edited by Mr.Canada
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The form will still be sent out so if you want to fill it in go ahead if you don't want to then don't we now have a choice. Before it was mandatory and enforced by the police dept. coming to your door and phoning you to make sure you handed it in if you failed to.

Please supply a cite or a link to ANY case where police are involved with the census. I've never, ever heard of cops enforcing the "mandatory" census. Ever.

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Please supply a cite or a link to ANY case where police are involved with the census. I've never, ever heard of cops enforcing the "mandatory" census. Ever.

Wow again the socialists ignore the very valid point I am making.

Explain how one week Canada is a police state with brutal police then the next you people think government needs to pry more into our private lives...explain.

Edited by Mr.Canada
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Hydraboss a socialist? :lol:

Mr. Canada if there was ever a reason to believe the right-wing is a direction and not a place, you're it - and on a one way trip that's forever just getting underway.

Methinks you'll never ever get where you're going but what the hey, its not the destination it's the journey.

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Hydraboss a socialist? :lol:

Mr. Canada if there was ever a reason to believe the right-wing is a direction and not a place, you're it - and on a one way trip that's forever just getting underway.

Methinks you'll never ever get where you're going but what the hey, its not the destination it's the journey.

This is awesome, ignore my question and attack me personally. Makes me think you socialists don't have an answer for it. I guess I win.

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Explain how one week Canada is a police state with brutal police then the next you people think government needs to pry more into our private lives...explain.

Perhaps Canada and us people are just a little more nuanced than you're able to appreciate or you're in a class all of your own that none of us could ever hope to measure up to. There could be a lot of different reasons, just like there are a lot of different things it's probably worth letting the government know about us.

Personally I'm still far more interested in knowing a lot more about what the government knows or thinks it knows and especially what it thinks we don't need to know. For some reason though I'm willing to bet you think we already know more than we need.

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So if you feel that the long census form is important then make sure you get the word out so people will fill it out. Others who don't , won't. Very simple, I don't see the problem. More personal freedom is a good thing not a bad thing. For the record, if I get a long form I will be filling it out but I defend every persons right to choose on this issue.

Edited by Mr.Canada
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Hydraboss a socialist? :lol:

Mr. Canada if there was ever a reason to believe the right-wing is a direction and not a place, you're it - and on a one way trip that's forever just getting underway.

Methinks you'll never ever get where you're going but what the hey, its not the destination it's the journey.

:)

just so, eyeball.

Hydraboss a socialist....who knew????

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