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Tories scrapping long form census


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This is awesome, ignore my question and attack me personally. Makes me think you socialists don't have an answer for it. I guess I win.

While the points you made may pertain to some members of these forums, the problem in this thread is it most certainly does not apply to to specific people that you were attacking. When you falsely apply inflammatory labels to people, don't feign surprise when poeple don't want to listen to what you're saying.

In your self-appointed victory speech, you again falsely cry "socialist". That means not only do YOU lose, but you don't even get a copy of the home game.

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...

1. They aren't scrapping it just making it optional.

...

No accurate survey is "optional". I think this motivates in part the academic opposition to Clement and the Conservatives. (Surely Harper understands that an optional survey is not representative.)

----

There are broader questions about this Census and I think that Harper is right. I am surprised that Clement is taking the ball, or that Harper has given the ball to Clement.

I would prefer a Canadian PM who could say clearly what is good for this country. We sadly have now the politics of Stephen Harper, and not someone who can speak in French and English to all Canadians.

I dream of a Canadian Margaret Thatcher, a Rene Levesque, who can talk to people in Quebec and Toronto, and explain why federal government spending is too large, and how to change it.

Edited by August1991
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You've yet to directly respond to the bulk of my post.

1. They aren't scrapping it just making it optional.

And such is the issue that all this partisan bickering has completely obscured! There are several aspects of this debate. Census content for example; how much content is really needed? Then there's the relevance; is the information collected bloated to the point that its unnecessary? Then some people's coveted privacy; is the longer form intrusive into your private life?

However, ALL these debates become irrelevant with an optional survey simply because its renders the results completely USELESS!

I've never filled one of these out, and have no idea what sorts of questions are being asked. However, the content is a moot point if the method is flawed, and thats exactly the situation with an optional census.

I'd rather the see the long form scrapped altogether than to have it optional. In school we are taught to analyze statistical exercises to find flaws, and remove those flaws from future data collection. Why on earth would we amend the way we collect data in such a way that we know will produce skewed results? I think this is a major reason for dissension within the conservative party on the issue, not just for the content.

2. Many people were making claims that Toronto was a police State during the G20 and that Canada had no more freedom, blah blah blah. Now that the Tories have made the long census form optional, thus protecting our privacy the same people are complaining about that now. So they complain when the police take our freedoms away and also complain when the government gives us more freedom...hilarious.

I see what you are saying, in fact Im a person who did not on the whole have a problem with the police situation at the G20. I think given what happens at these events it was to a degree justified. The sheer idiocy was having it in toronto in the first place. But if you are actually trying to put the addtional police presence, special powers for police and altered detainment laws in the same boat as the topics of information collected in an annual census, you live in a scary black and white world that I hope to never visit.

3. So which is it? Do we have too much freedom in Canada or not enough based on point number 2? You people cannot have it both ways.

You cant just add another point demanding your previous point be addressed to make it look like you have more points.

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And such is the issue that all this partisan bickering has completely obscured! There are several aspects of this debate. Census content for example; how much content is really needed?
A census was first devised in Canada in the late 1800s - after Confederation, our first was in 1871. Census forms then were simple, and filled in every 10 years.

---

Nowadays, I have an Air Miles card and several credit cards and so I assume, "people"know what I am doing. Since I use direct deposit, my bank (BMO) knows how much I earn. In 2010, we are far, far from 1871.

In a world (1871) where it is costly or difficult to obtain information, I can understand why the State should force everyone to provide it. In a world (2010) where information is easy to collect (assuming people want to provide it), I just don't see why the State should force people to provide it.

I prefer a State based on voluntary participation - except for tax payments.

Heck, I now file with Revenue Canada by Internet - why not with Statistics Canada too? If information is the problem, I could have a basic file with Statistics Canada and I could update it whenever something changed.

That's what I do with my credit cards, my bank cards and my various online purchase sites. I even do this (sort of) for my Quebec health card, drivers licence and property taxes.

I don't have an Internet federal passport file but I have a sophisticated file with the BMO. (Why?)

-----

IMV, too many Statistics Canada bureaucrats, various university social scientist and MSM journalist types are living in the 1970s. They have a Soviet mentality. They think a "Questionnaire" on paper with check boxes is the way to obtain accurate information. Bureaucrats at Statistics Canada in 2010, like bureaucrats in the Soviet Union in 1978, are delusional.

In this modern world, Revenue Canada (the CRA) and Air Miles have a far better picture of Canadians than Statistics Canada can ever hope to have.

In 2011, an accurate paper questionnaire census is a bureaucratic Soviet delusion. Most Canadians no longer read newspapers - and they no longer bother to fill out paper questionnaires. Canadians reveal bureaucratic truth through their Air Miles Card.

Maybe StatsCan is simply jealous of Air Miles.

Edited by August1991
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The examples you have provided above can easily come from the information on a family's tax return.

The tax return provides address including postal code, dates of birth of all family members, net income, taxable income etc... so the long form isn't necessary for the collection of this data.

what about people who don't file income taxes? Eg. no tax owing, unemployed, etc...

Edited by William Ashley
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Third, we too often only consider a government tax when it takes money from us. What about a government policy that takes our time?

I advocate a "time or money" approach to a 12 days / year national volunteer service requirement. 50$ per day to a maximum of 10 days. With the final two days being informational. (1 - 8 hour day a month) with the option for more volunteerism for reward or to save up lifetime service requirement. This can be done in highschool (already some highschools require students to volunteer service hours just to graduate with a high school diploma) - this type of situation is not new, and overlaping this really only means that people put in a few days every couple months to service their local communities or volunteer in militia training. It shoulnd't be seen as "pain" but an oppourtunity to engage your local communities, meet others, and learn new things. You can respect the community you live in more when you actually put in some time for our benefit as a community rather than a world of familyless islands of one. Antisocialism only fosters breakdown of social order, crime, and loss of public funds, leading to higher taxes for mental health, higher healthcare costs due to aversion to self care, and corrections costs. Degrading the social fabric.

When Canadians take a day off work and wait in an ER waiting room for an afternoon (or more), is that not also a "tax"? When Canadians - small businesses in particular - must complete tax forms (or hire accountants to do this), is this not a tax also?

And what if canadians spent a day in helping train someone for ER work? and a nurse volunteered a day (they have sick days for a reason) to help a local ER or clinic? These little things of doing a little extra can help the kinks where they are needed. You have to understand some times, people just arn't needed at their regular job, and the ability of an employeer to allow someone a day off during a low work period for public service, is a service not only to the business but also the employee and society. Oh but what about pay - well that is why there ought to be an honorarium (you know you can pay 50 or 80$ not to put in the 8 hours.. or you can get that same amount as an honorarium for the 10 days. While this may be 5 or 6 billion maybe in costs to run the program - perhaps a way of cost recovery or financing can be found. Who knows maybe people will pay not to help out, rather than get paid? Maybe it'd be a little extra money, good for the youth to have a federal allowance, for a course or a vacation, etc.. sort of an offset of a free tax return without personal income taxes.

Ok lets get serious maybe we can just give away vacations and courses instead of money or maybe a little less money to reduce cocaine use.

Edited by William Ashley
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A census was first devised in Canada in the late 1800s - after Confederation, our first was in 1871. Census forms then were simple, and filled in every 10 years.

Nowadays, I have an Air Miles card and several credit cards and so I assume, "people"know what I am doing. Since I use direct deposit, my bank (BMO) knows how much I earn. In 2010, we are far, far from 1871.

You seem to have missed the point completely. Congrats on having the airmiles card. I dont see what this has to do with anything I wrote.

I prefer a State based on voluntary participation - except for tax payments.

And I prefer days when the sun is shining and its about 30 degrees celsius in the summer, but that does not change the reality of the fact that I'm currently living in the U.K. If it was something I cared deeply enough about, I would move to a place where that is the norm. Me rallying support for everyone to get together and burn their raincoats won't change the reality of where we live.

Like it or not, you currently live in a country that provides many things for its citizens through social programs. Like it or not, certain data are relevant to the government that you pay taxes to. Like it or not, that goes beyond financial data.

Heck, I now file with Revenue Canada by Internet - why not with Statistics Canada too? If information is the problem, I could have a basic file with Statistics Canada and I could update it whenever something changed.

Once again you miss the point. Information is not the problem, how its collected is. Credit card and bank payments may provide some information, but they fail to give a complete impression of the country as a whole.

I dont agree with you, but I understand your ideology. I get it. The issue here however is the OPTIONAL long form. An optional long form is lose lose. Those who see value in the effective surveying of the entire populace of a massive and varied country lose because the information is completely useless. Those like you lose because all the same if not more government resources are still being spent to gather the same data. Only this time its useless.

IMV, too many Statistics Canada bureaucrats, various university social scientist and MSM journalist types are living in the 1970s. They have a Soviet mentality. They think a "Questionnaire" on paper with check boxes is the way to obtain accurate information. Bureaucrats at Statistics Canada in 2010, like bureaucrats in the Soviet Union in 1978, are delusional.

The historical tidbit you opened with seems to suggest the census predated the soviet union. I dont see what precedented collection of data every five years has to do with the soviet union mr mccarthy. With your anti-communist fearmongering you demonstrate that it is you, not the beaurocrats who is living in the past.

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what about people who don't file income taxes? Eg. no tax owing, unemployed, etc...

It is a criminal offense not to file. Having no taxes owing, which is the majority of people since the inception of payroll withholding taxes, or being unemployed is not a reason to not file. If you have a social insurance number you have to file unless you have emigrated to another country.

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I dont see what precedented collection of data every five years has to do with the soviet union mr mccarthy. With your anti-communist fearmongering you demonstrate that it is you, not the beaurocrats who is living in the past.

Excuse me but I am the anti-communist fear mongerer here. In my view there is always a time for anti-communist rhetoric and fearmongering.

Even with that, all kinds of socialist concepts have been foisted on the public and power is being concentrated in the hands of central authority. I suppose it is because people seem to think opposing those concepts is simply anti-communist fear-mongering.

I like the idea of making the long form optional. It seems less coercive.

Edited by Pliny
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Excuse me but I am the anti-communist fear mongerer here. In my view there is always a time for anti-communist rhetoric and fearmongering.

Even with that, all kinds of socialist concepts have been foisted on the public and power is being concentrated in the hands of central authority.

You are clearly very quick to equate any sort of centralism with communism and thus with gulags, cold cucumber soup and vodka. Unfortunately the world is not as black and white as you suggest. In fact, Canada is quite unique in the very decentralized way it doles out its social services-almost democratic you might say!

I would not want to live under a communist regime. I've taken my fair share of soviet history and what a depressing subject it is to study! However to refute anything on principle is logic failed from the get-go. For this reason I am not a vegetarian. I know too much meat is bad for the body. I know how unsustainable raising livestock is as opposed to vegetal crops. It is also extremely expensive. However I find it closed-minded to reject meat altogether because of these reasons. Instead I approach every meal as a new situation, and put a suitable amount of meat in my meals if any at all. The same should be said for political systems. You might learn something not by accepting everything you disagree with, but by not outright rejecting everything you dont.

Sure there is "always time for anti-communist rhetoric and fearmongering", but by making that time all the time, you risk making yourself come across as someone unable to critically evaluate individual situations. I know the first part of your post was only partially serious, but we are talking about a standard government data collection that has been happening for 145 years. Lets keep our heads on straight folks.

I suppose it is because people seem to think opposing those concepts is simply anti-communist fear-mongering.

Maybe. On the other hand, it may(just may) be that a majority of Canadians agree with and benefit from certain socialist elements in Canadian domestic policy.

I like the idea of making the long form optional. It seems less coercive.

I dont understand. So do you value the information being collected in the long form or not?

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You are clearly very quick to equate any sort of centralism with communism and thus with gulags, cold cucumber soup and vodka. Unfortunately the world is not as black and white as you suggest. In fact, Canada is quite unique in the very decentralized way it doles out its social services-almost democratic you might say!

Almost socialistic you might say.

I understand that Communism is dead. Let's keep it that way.

There are still those that, for whatever reason, still like to raise the red flag and celebrate the likes of Castro, Guevara, Mao and Marx, Lenin and Trotsky.

Now socialism is a different kettle of fish and sneaks up on people unawares. Before you know it you are living in France.

It is a "progressive" system ending in it's goal of total government and a totally centrally planned society. The same goal as......Communism.

You may be a littel naive to think that progressiveism can always be controlled but you have forgotten about the conservatives, the right wing of society. They are not your friends and if you attempt to centralize power for yourself you have another thing coming they will centralize power for themselves. Ha...so there.... take that you lib-left, namby-pamby (a la Bill O'Reilly),

do-gooder wimp.

It really isn't so black and white, is it?

Yes, we can creep along voting ourselves favour and privilege without even noticing the walls going up. It's when we run out of money and want to put on the roof that we notice what we have done to each other.

I would not want to live under a communist regime. I've taken my fair share of soviet history and what a depressing subject it is to study! However to refute anything on principle is logic failed from the get-go. For this reason I am not a vegetarian. I know too much meat is bad for the body. I know how unsustainable raising livestock is as opposed to vegetal crops. It is also extremely expensive. However I find it closed-minded to reject meat altogether because of these reasons. Instead I approach every meal as a new situation, and put a suitable amount of meat in my meals if any at all. The same should be said for political systems. You might learn something not by accepting everything you disagree with, but by not outright rejecting everything you dont.

I can tell. I have been rejected on principle.

People have been following that philosophy, of not refuting the political system of socialism, and people always wind up behind dull gray walls. We just need to give it time to work, that's all.

If someone wishes to dictate the terms of my life to me then I know they have to lie to me. And the more they dictate, the more lies they have to tell.

Are we really at the point where we can institute socialist concepts and not know where we are heading? Haven't we learned anything? It seems to me that "outright rejection" means not trying before you buy. Do we really need to have a little taste of socialism as if we haven't tried it before. My Mom used to try and disguise liver and feed it to me. How many times did I have to taste it before I decide to reject it. How many times does socialism have to be tried before we realize it is just another serving of the same thing dressed up a little differently.

I guess you didn't realize the raving lunatic you have happened upon. Well, don't outright reject everything I say. What was the phrase...oh yeah..."refuting anything on principle is logic failed from the get go.

Socialism will work under some smaller scale system, I believe but has no system of gauging the needs and wants of people nor does it provide outlet for individual dreams and ambitions. After all, in its' end it has achieved the ideal state. Their is no necessity for change or ideas.

Sure there is "always time for anti-communist rhetoric and fearmongering", but by making that time all the time, you risk making yourself come across as someone unable to critically evaluate individual situations.

I look on the history of Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Tito, Hitler, Mussolini and I think they have all been critically evaluated. They don't really impress me as being successful systems.

Canada has started on the road to the socialist state. Lucky we have the Queen on one side and the US on the other to slow sown the march to the inevitable end but it is inevitable.

I have no delusions that my remarks will be dismissed as alarmist or just dubbed anti-communist fear mongering. We will not reverse our "progressive" march. We must arrive at the inevitable economic collapse. What we do after that is what is important.

I know the first part of your post was only partially serious, but we are talking about a standard government data collection that has been happening for 145 years. Lets keep our heads on straight folks.

Not in the same form or to the same extent as the long form. But, unarguably, we have been under the same parliamentary system as we have for the last 145 years, thanks to the Queen, bless her heart, and the Crown.

Maybe. On the other hand, it may(just may) be that a majority of Canadians agree with and benefit from certain socialist elements in Canadian domestic policy.

Somebody definitely benefits and most people don't mind paying the price for political boondoggles if they are able to continue with their lives and living standards but when it comes to push and shove, due to the privilege and pork taking an ever increasing bite out of the portion of those providing the means, everyone loses.

I dont understand. So do you value the information being collected in the long form or not?

Government, limited to it's strictest mandate, doesn't need the information. Private enterprise would have to fund it's collection if they needed it.

In our society, because it is ideal and need not change, except to alleviate economic inequities on a "progressive" basis, has to continue it's 145 year tradition, born of the English parliament,

with it's central concentration of power, and infused with progressive socialist principles, has to go to the inevitable end.

I have not seen a society, nation or civilization "progressively" work towards a de-centralization of power. They generally end up a dictatorship. The US revolution was an exception.

Now don't I sound like the resident anti-communist fear-monger?

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Things like my religion, health history, and ethnicity are none of the government's business. There were a lot of really invasive questions like that on the last long form I received. I always seem to get the long form too, but I always throw it out.

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Things like my religion, health history, and ethnicity are none of the government's business. There were a lot of really invasive questions like that on the last long form I received. I always seem to get the long form too, but I always throw it out.

Don't forget questions like:

How many rooms in your dwelling.

Annual electricity payments.

Ancestors ethnic origin (by the way, "Canadian" is not an option).

How many unpaid hours per week spent doing the following: Bathing children, etc

And don't forget why they need your info... Canadian Census

Why should you fill in your census questionnaire?

The Census is important to Canada

Almost every country in the world regularly carries out a census. Canada’s next census is Tuesday, May 16, 2006. When you fill in your questionnaire, on-line or return it by mail, you help create a statistical portrait which includes every person in Canada.

By completing your questionnaire, you play an important role in shaping Canada’s future. The answers you provide on your census form are added to those of everyone in Canada and are used to provide the up-to-date information required to help keep Canada in step with changing times.

The census means services for you

The information gathered in the census is used to plan important services such as transportation, day-care, fire and police protection, and employment and training programs.

Census information is also used to meet some of the needs of people who are new to Canada. The census helps identify communities in which English and French as second language programs and heritage language classes are needed.

Our programs depend on it

Your answers to the census help to determine how much money is transferred to your province for health care, education and other social services. But that’s not all. Census information is used by federal and provincial programs, including:

• Canadian Human Rights Commission

• Immigration Settlement and Adaptation Program

• Canada Health and Social Transfer

• Immigration Act

• Employment Equity Act

Human Right Circus? So they can further divide Canadians??

Immigration Settlement and Adaptation Program??? So they can divert more funds to people who are not Canadian?

Canada Health and Social Transfer? I was with them up until "Social Transfer". Bunch of bullshit.

Immigration Act? Can anyone say "duplication"?

Employment Equity Act? So they're promoting yet more inequity by creating dividing lines?

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What Hydraboss said.

Plus, why should the private sector have free access to information collected which is paid for by the taxpayer? If private enterprise wants to improve/expand/mold their businesses in accordance with current demographics, let them pay marketing firms to mine the required data. There are plenty of reputable market polling companies that would welcome their business.

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So how about this...

I agree to honestly fill out the long form census in exchange for:

The Canadian government making it illegal to conduct any type of polling in any way, shape or form. This includes political pollsters, EKOS, Stats Can, Ipsos Reid, Airmiles, Sears, telemarketing, MP's reps calling my house, removal of all non-essential questions from FutureShop/Visa/Brick card applications, etc, etc, etc. The Canadian government must also commit to harsh jail sentences for violation. Alberta Health will no longer be able to ask any personal information on application forms, the bank can kiss my ass if they request any info that is not directly associated to my loan application (how much do you make - how much do you take home?). All of those private stats-sucking organizations that make free use of census information must be restricted to single-source information pools (Stats Can only). Fraser Institute is toast. CD Howe...history. Council of Canadians, well, have fun quoting what you don't have access to. Canadian Center for Policy Alternatives - gonzo. Caledon Institute of Social Policy will have to make do with what they can get from the feds.

I think this would make for a very equitable deal.

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Apparently 168,000 people refused to fill out the 2006 census including 35,000 natives. I'll bet a good portion of those who ignore/refuse are new Canadians from countries where governments used to intrude into their lives - and that's why they came here. I may have missed it but here's a link to the actual census long form that was used in 2006:

Link to Census form:

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/ref/about-apropos/version-eng.cfm

Link to 35,000 natives: http://www.thestar.com/article/294018

Edited by Keepitsimple
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Voluntary form is no substitute for a mandatory one, outgoing head of Statistics Canada says

Absolutely right. Clement was implying that StatsCan was ok with the choice, and StatsCan couldn't answer back.

Now the Chief has resigned so he can have his say:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/chief-statistician-resigns-over-changes-to-census/article1647348/

"I want to take this opportunity to comment on a technical statistical issue which has become the subject of media discussion," Mr. Sheikh wrote.

"This relates to the question of whether a voluntary survey can become a substitute for a mandatory census. It cannot," he said.

(emphases added)

Now that's a man of integrity!

Here's mud in your eye HarperClement!

YAHOOOOO! :D

Edited by bebe
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