$9 Billion No-Bid Contract for 65 F-35s

[capricorn]

You can't make this up....CBC reader comment opines that today's CF-18 crash was planned to get support for F-35 procurement !

The way things are going, that may be the lead story in the Canadian MSM tomorrow.

[justme]

Yes, whenever a plane crashes, one less plane remains. I'm sure we could arrange to buy more if we needed to in the future to replace losses.

And wait in line for it. I don't think one plane here and there will be considered high priority orders.

The price on the F-35s may be giving people sticker shock, but that's for the total package - not just the planes. Once training simulators, infrastructure and the like is in place, the cost of planes would drop.

Divide up the F-35s between Cold Lake and Bagotville, and you have 32 each with a plane leftover. Given the size of Canada, if we were to really get serious about the armed forces, we should probably have three fighter jet air wings: west, central and east. At 32 each, that'd be 96. Add to that a couple dozen for maritime units, a dozen on a carrier for each coast, and you'd have a total of 120. Throw in some extras, and you'd still have less than the number of F-18s that Canada bought - 138. I don't think that's unreasonable, and consider that Australia, a nation with 2/3 our population, plans to buy up to 100.

As for whether or not Canada should consider other options, consider the track record Canada has for replacing equipment. We need the most advanced plane we can get to ensure that it will remain relevant for as far into the future as possible because it's not likely to be replaced for a long time. And yes, because Canada would most likely act as part of a coalition, it makes sense to use the same aircraft that our allies will be using.

[Smallc]

Divide up the F-35s between Cold Lake and Bagotville, and you have 32 each with a plane leftover.

I believe there are more in Alberta than in Quebec.

[bjre]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfiCyVKnSSw

Additional cost may to be added later like this kind.

[DogOnPorch]

In the still photos, you can see a big flame coming from the port engine just as it impacts. Maybe a bird strike?

[Wilber]

In the still photos, you can see a big flame coming from the port engine just as it impacts. Maybe a bird strike?

Could be, looks like he was doing a slow flight demonstration and the autoflight systems were keeping it just above stall speed. Asymmetric thrust incurred trying to keep the aircraft above the stall on one engine might have made it uncontrollable. Birds have a way of screwing up airshows. Anyone remember that MIG-29 in Paris?

As for only 65 F-35's, doesn't seem like a lot but we don't have to maintain a NATO wing in Germany like we did when the F-18's were acquired. Continuing to upgrade and use a limited number of the F-18's would make sense even if they are for reserve squadrons. They could still be very useful aircraft even if no longer front line.

[Handsome Rob]

Could be, looks like he was doing a slow flight demonstration and the autoflight systems were keeping it just above stall speed. Asymmetric thrust incurred trying to keep the aircraft above the stall on one engine might have made it uncontrollable. Birds have a way of screwing up airshows. Anyone remember that MIG-29 in Paris?

As for only 65 F-35's, doesn't seem like a lot but we don't have to maintain a NATO wing in Germany like we did when the F-18's were acquired. Continuing to upgrade and use a limited number of the F-18's would make sense even if they are for reserve squadrons. They could still be very useful aircraft even if no longer front line.

Pilots often seem to cost more than the airplanes they fly when you add up all the training hours. Perhaps if their is a demonstrated need...

Latest jokes, future forces pilots will be pissed because they won't be able to get airline jobs because of the lack of multi-turbine time.

[Wilber]

Pilots often seem to cost more than the airplanes they fly when you add up all the training hours. Perhaps if their is a demonstrated need...

Latest jokes, future forces pilots will be pissed because they won't be able to get airline jobs because of the lack of multi-turbine time.

If you add up all the training hours of all the pilots who have flown the F-18 there is probably something to that but so what, you could say the same for all the complex machinery our military operate.

I've known a few ex 104 drivers in the airline biz but these days staying in the military might well be a better career choice. I'm glad neither of my kids decided they wanted to go into the airlines. I'm with Sully when he said "I don't know of any airline pilot who would want anyone he cared about to go into airline flying" or words to that effect. It used to be a great job but now I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. The rewards just aren't there that would justify the time and expense involved.

[Handsome Rob]

I've known a few ex 104 drivers in the airline biz but these days staying in the military might well be a better career choice. I'm glad neither of my kids decided they wanted to go into the airlines. I'm with Sully when he said "I don't know of any airline pilot who would want anyone he cared about to go into airline flying" or words to that effect. It used to be a great job but now I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. The rewards just aren't there that would justify the time and expense involved.

Hey, I said jokes! But yeah, that's what you get in an industry where every single person loves what they do and can't set a floor price...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/prairies/lethbridge-cf-18-jet-fighter-crash/article1650255/

Nozzle on #1 wide open and pumping thrust, #2, fully closed. Makes the cause of loss of control rather plainly evident. Now the real question, what caused the loss of thrust or alternatively, nozzle to behave irregularly.

Special Centennial Hornet Paint

[DogOnPorch]

Nice video promoting the F-35.

[wyly]

I don't think that's unreasonable, and consider that Australia, a nation with 2/3 our population, plans to buy up to 100.

and Mexico with three times our population is buying? none they have a grand total of 10 F-5's and no country is threathening to invade it...the Defence department claims the cost of the F 35 may rise to 150 million per plane!

[Handsome Rob]

and Mexico with three times our population is buying? none they have a grand total of 10 F-5's and no country is threathening to invade it...the Defence department claims the cost of the F 35 may rise to 150 million per plane!

Ah yes, that fellow Commonwealth country, NATO member, one of the wealthiest in the G8....we share much rich heritage and culture with Mexico, not to mention armed forces requirements & topography.

[bush_cheney2004]

Mexico is fighting an "invasion" from within...drug cartels. Mexico's aircraft procurement to date reflects this and, at least for rotary winged aircraft, has been a lot more rational than Canada's.

[wyly]

Ah yes, that fellow Commonwealth country, NATO member, one of the wealthiest in the G8....we share much rich heritage and culture with Mexico, not to mention armed forces requirements & topography.

ahh so so our friends and neighbours go out and all buy Lamborghinis so we have to as well, rright that's really logical...

what culture and topography do we share with Albania and Turkey? why isn't Albania a NATO member buying F35's like it's friends and neighbours?

[Wilber]

why isn't Albania a NATO member buying F35's like it's friends and neighbours?

Yes, let's replace our F-18's with MIG 21's and be like the Albanians

Edited July 25, 2010 by Wilber

[wyly]

Yes, let's replace our F-18's with MIG 21's and be like the Albanians

or the Mig 29 of our NATO ally Poland or the Eurofighter Typhoon of Germany....

[DogOnPorch]

The MiG-21 can't go bellow a certain amount of fuel without its centerline drop tank in place otherwise it becomes tail heavy. A bit of a trim problem in combat. But as a dash ---> shoot type of interceptor, it's alright. A lot are still flying.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

A no bid contract smacks of smelly things. We should have looked around in my view. The T50 , SU35 and the Mig 31 are impressive to say the least. The F22 is a piece of junk, it is not all weather and has a veritable herd of problems to solve before it is worth a good look. Too bad the program was canceled with no fixes for its issues. The F35 is only one of the available options, some of the Russian birds built on license here may be a tempting alternative to buying from the Americans.

[bush_cheney2004]

.....The F22 is a piece of junk, it is not all weather and has a veritable herd of problems to solve before it is worth a good look. Too bad the program was canceled with no fixes for its issues....

Then you will be happy to know that the F-22 is not available to Canada at any price....or anybody else. The Americans want to keep this very expensive "piece of junk" to themselves.

Edited July 26, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[nicky10013]

A no bid contract smacks of smelly things. We should have looked around in my view. The T50 , SU35 and the Mig 31 are impressive to say the least. The F22 is a piece of junk, it is not all weather and has a veritable herd of problems to solve before it is worth a good look. Too bad the program was canceled with no fixes for its issues. The F35 is only one of the available options, some of the Russian birds built on license here may be a tempting alternative to buying from the Americans.

Apparently the contract with lockheed doesn't have to be signed until 2013, meaning that if a different government were elected, it would be able to review the process that led to the contract and cancel it without penalties. It would give the government time for a full bid process. If it goes back to Lockheed, so be it, but at least there's the potential for an transparent process.

[GostHacked]

If anyone can find a better plane than the F-35 right now, for a similar price, and one that can easily be integrated into the NATO role, please let our government know. Canada has already put an investment into the F-35 program years ago. We should make sure we get something for our investment.

[GostHacked]

A no bid contract smacks of smelly things. We should have looked around in my view. The T50 , SU35 and the Mig 31 are impressive to say the least. The F22 is a piece of junk, it is not all weather and has a veritable herd of problems to solve before it is worth a good look. Too bad the program was canceled with no fixes for its issues. The F35 is only one of the available options, some of the Russian birds built on license here may be a tempting alternative to buying from the Americans.

I seriously doubt we'd get licensing for any Russian fighter.

[bush_cheney2004]

I seriously doubt we'd get licensing for any Russian fighter.

Even if Canada did, there would be other logistical and interoperability issues for NATO / NORAD missions. Nyet...

[Handsome Rob]

I seriously doubt we'd get licensing for any Russian fighter.

I remain convinced that we will see F-35's landing in Canada at some point between 2017 & 2025.

How much time we spend pissing upwind & tying our shoelaces together remains to be seen. The amount of money wasted on infighting & fees will probably more than make up for an disparity between final bill & original price.

[Wilber]

or the Mig 29 of our NATO ally Poland or the Eurofighter Typhoon of Germany....

The MIG 29 is as old as the F-18 and the Poles are presently considering modernizing them in order to get another 10 or 15 years out of them, if they can get Mikoyan to come up with a program. Just what we need. The Typhoon has had massive cost overruns, some saying the eventual unit cost to the RAF could be the same as the F-22. Link