Israel's New Best Friend?

[myata]

Actually Israels interests compell it to pursue the status quo, not a settlement. Its your view of this as a one-side goodguy VS badguy conflict thats extremely narrow. BOTH sides have done literally everything possible to scuttle the peace process at every juncture.

Id crash the whole internet if I even TRIED to post a list of all the stupid things these two gangs of morons have done to each other.

I'd only add that massive foreign assistance to predominantly one side won't ever make it more perceiptive to the notions of peace and fair settlement. Guaranteed.

[DogOnPorch]

I'd only add that massive foreign assistance to predominantly one side won't ever make it more perceiptive to the notions of peace and fair settlement. Guaranteed.

The Arabs used to get their weapons for free until the fall of the Soviet Union. Now the poor dears have to buy them or let Iran pick-up the tab.

[dre]

When you lump Israel in with North Korea and Iran, you're really making it hard to take you seriously.

When you take a one-sided view of this conflict you do the same.

Those are all countries that flagrantly violate international law. Why shouldnt they be lumped in together?

The building of settlements in the occupied terrority is one of the most aggregious breaches of international law going on in the world today. Not to mention the constant threats against neighbors, the constant violation of soveriegn airspace. Then theres the way they treat people living in the occupied territory... like feces basically. Not to mention this is a country that steals and forges CANADIAN passports to use in other acts that violation international law, and a nuclear rogue that tried to sell nuclear weapons to South Africa.

Dont blame me for the fact that Israel is a belligerent actor that ignores international law.

Edited May 28, 2010 by dre

[DogOnPorch]

Anything aggregious worth mentioning re: Arabs?

Nahhhhhhhhhhh....

[myata]

When you take a one-sided view of this conflict you do the same.

We've been there many many times. The folks have "spot" vision i.e they see only those spots of reality that match their preconceived ideological image of how it should have been.

[dre]

Anything aggregious worth mentioning re: Arabs?

Nahhhhhhhhhhh....

Yup I could go on and on about all the idiotic shit Arab government have done over there. And if this was a thread about Canada sticking its toungue up te ass of an Arabic belligerent state actor I probably would.. but of course its not.

I have zero support for the zealots in control of either side... just sympathy that or the most part its innocents on both sides that bear the brunt of that zealotry. Id actually like to see the guys that want to fight kill each other... if militant arabs and jews could climb inside a big stadium and fight to death with stones and clubs Id be the first one lining up for tickets and laughing my ass off while they eviserated each other. But unfortunately the shit disturbers, instigators, militants and zealots arent usually the ones doing the dying... its everyone else.

Edited May 28, 2010 by dre

[Moonbox]

We've been there many many times. The folks have "spot" vision i.e they see only those spots of reality that match their preconceived ideological image of how it should have been.

It's rather galling that you'll say that when you've months, perhaps years of posting proving you do the same. I hope you recognize the irony of your statement.

[Moonbox]

But unfortunately the shit disturbers, instigators, militants and zealots arent usually the ones doing the dying... its everyone else.

It's the responsibility of the 'innocents' you speak of to curb their militants. The instigators you speak of don't operate in a vacuum. They need places to hide, funding and support from the 'innocents' that get 'dragged' into the conflict.

Unfortunately, religious leaders and fanatics have a really easy time brainwashing populations who've endured literally centuries of religious indoctrination.

It further complicates matters that a lot of the leadership and funding come from outside the area in the first place.

No, until Palestine and the surrounding area rejects violence and violent rhetoric as a whole, Isreal is going to continue feeling scared and lashing out. It's natural and instinctive.

[myata]

It's rather galling that you'll say that when you've months, perhaps years of posting proving you do the same. I hope you recognize the irony of your statement.

No I don't for the simple reason that it's not true. My postings are based on facts and reality - e.g. I never questioned that both sides in this affair have exhibited unacceptable acts of hostility and aggression - while these kind of statement:

As we have discussed maaany times before, these principles are very easily to carry on about when you're not afraid of having your bus bombed.

are nothing but ideological justification of a prejudged conclusion. See, it's not enough to just say things, one should be able to also prove them. Makes all the difference, doesn't it?

[myata]

, Isreal is going to continue feeling scared and lashing out. It's natural and instinctive.

And now look where this fantastic alternative view of reality is getting us. "Scared", really, with all those A-bombs, C-bombs, armed to the brink of the teeth and occupying the territory? It's ridiculous to the extent of not being funny, as every single aggressor in history have used that funny pretext of "being scared".

[williat]

Just as long Canada doesn't give them money to fight wars like the US does. I wonder if the world would treat Israel different if Jesus wasn't a Jew? Don't most people when they think of Israel, think God and Jesus?

I can't say that I believe Israel would be treated differently if Jesus wasn't a Jew, because there would be too many factors to consider. But overall I would say when someone says Israel I would think of religion.

Id rather see Canada tell both of those idiotic gangs of biblically motivated shit heads to go fuck themselves.

Right because standing on the sideline while they kill each other is right decision.

Where do Israel's enemies get their weapons? The weapon fairy?

Depends on who you're asking.

When you lump Israel in with North Korea and Iran, you're really making it hard to take you seriously.

Are you serious? Israel scoffs at the UN just as much as North Korea or Iran, I mean you can't say "I don't think anyone around me should have WMD, but I will neither confirm or deny that I am in position of WMD." At some point there has to be a give and take, sure grouping them with North Korea and Iran sounds terrible but in reality are they that much different. Dropping precision weapons from fighter jets onto a country is way different then launching a couple a rockets that may hit something. I understand Israel cannot accept being subject of constant attack but common.

[dre]

It's the responsibility of the 'innocents' you speak of to curb their militants. The instigators you speak of don't operate in a vacuum. They need places to hide, funding and support from the 'innocents' that get 'dragged' into the conflict.

Unfortunately, religious leaders and fanatics have a really easy time brainwashing populations who've endured literally centuries of religious indoctrination.

It further complicates matters that a lot of the leadership and funding come from outside the area in the first place.

No, until Palestine and the surrounding area rejects violence and violent rhetoric as a whole, Isreal is going to continue feeling scared and lashing out. It's natural and instinctive.

Hilarious... you think theyre going to reject violence while Israel is building settlements on their land? Thats utterly unthinkable and impossible. And Israel knows this... do you honestly thing for a second that if Israel had even a passing interest in resolving the conflict they would be building new settlements in the west bank? An act they know cuts the legs out from underneath potential moderate leaders in the occupied territory, and guarantees that palestinians will never reject violence?

And Israel isnt "lashing out". They have a very carefull and well thought out strategy thats been on course for decades. They are trying to expand and most importantly they are trying to secure permanent access to the water resources in the west bank, by building enough settlements there that it becomes logically impossible for them to ever leave.

Oh and BTW... prior to the latest intifada there was a few years of the closest thing to peace and relative calm that there ever has been, and the PLO was able to pretty much keep their militants in check. What happened? SETTLEMENT BUILDING INCREASE, then a prominant Israeli politician made sure violence started in force again by goign to the temple mount with armed troops and police.

You think this is about security but it isnt. These is a garden variety dispute over land and resources. Israel wants the west bank and most importantly the water resources on it for itsself. The palestinians want it too.

You have to be utterly blind to believe EITHER side has any interest in peace what-so-ever based on their actions.

Edited May 28, 2010 by dre

[bush_cheney2004]

.... Dropping precision weapons from fighter jets onto a country is way different then launching a couple a rockets that may hit something. I understand Israel cannot accept being subject of constant attack but common.

Great...then surely you would support numerous rocket attacks on Hamilton, Ontario from Caledonia because of long unsettled land claims?

[Battletoads]

Why should Canada be siding with anyone in a conflict that in no way involves us, and has two despicable parties involved in it?

Edited May 28, 2010 by Battletoads

[dre]

Why should Canada be siding with anyone in a conflict that in no way involves us, and has two despicable parties involved in it?

BINGO.

[williat]

Great...then surely you would support numerous rocket attacks on Hamilton, Ontario from Caledonia because of long unsettled land claims?

So are you saying that you deem this to be a rational use of force? Bombing a city seems like a bit of a step up the scale compared to a rocket attack, last time I checked international law it was pretty clear that upon being attacked a state may defend itself with force "within reason", I hardly believe this qualifies. Maybe we should go by your logic the next time they decide to block a highway or railway near Caledonia and just call in the F-18s to level the reserve.

[Jack Weber]

So are you saying that you deem this to be a rational use of force? Bombing a city seems like a bit of a step up the scale compared to a rocket attack, last time I checked international law it was pretty clear that upon being attacked a state may defend itself with force "within reason", I hardly believe this qualifies. Maybe we should go by your logic the next time they decide to block a highway or railway near Caledonia and just call in the F-18s to level the reserve.

Just don't level Ohsweken Speedway!!!!!

[Argus]

When you take a one-sided view of this conflict you do the same.

Those are all countries that flagrantly violate international law. Why shouldnt they be lumped in together?

All of Israel's actions are in self defense. You might not like how aggressive that defense is, but really, if the Arab world would leave Israel the hell alone, there'd be no more violence. Iran and North Korea export violence. Both of them are led by men with a fanatic fixation, an obsession with punishing those who disagree with their particular political beliefs.

Israel doesn't even have a common border with Iran! There's no cause for Iran to even care about Israel. They're not competitors or rivals of any kind. They're not vying for the same territory. They're not jousting over sea lanes or water or territory. Iran hates Israel because they're Jews. That's the _entire_ reason for their enmity (don't even TRY to suggest Iran has some sort of humanitarian indignation over human rights when it accords NONE to its own people) As for North Korea. I think everyone just wishes they would disappear. Nobody cares about them. Nobody is threatening them. Nobody even has disputes with them other than for the fact they insist on acting like crazed nutbars, attacking other people and threatening to nuke them.

So your three examples consist of two countries who nobody would bother if they'd just leave their neighbours alone, and one country which would never bother its neighbours if they just left THEM alone.

And yet you don't see a difference....

The building of settlements in the occupied terrority is one of the most aggregious breaches of international law going on in the world today.

Really? Cause there are countries where slavery goes on. There are countries which are committing acts of genocide. There are nations where whole extended families are thrown into labour camps under conditions so horrible that a major chunk of the prisoners die every year.

I realize the UN doesn't seem to spend a lot of time worrying about them, but even so...

Coming soon to a national capital near you, Vladimir Putin, a man who violently invaded his neighbour on a flimsy pretext and stole a big chunk of their land. How many riots do you think people like you will engage in when he visits?

Edited May 28, 2010 by Argus

[williat]

But you cannot readily admit that constructing new settlements on land that is under dispute and essentially one of the main principles behind the argument as nothing more then a kick in the nuts. I have no ties to either Israel or Arab countries, but how can the Palestinian leaders turn around and not condone violent behavior when their requests are being so blatantly ignored. Now I will admit that the Palestinian territory, with Hamas or Fatah or whoever is in charge now adays, is in shambles currently but change cannot occur if they are just trying to kill each other.

[bush_cheney2004]

So are you saying that you deem this to be a rational use of force? Bombing a city seems like a bit of a step up the scale compared to a rocket attack, last time I checked international law it was pretty clear that upon being attacked a state may defend itself with force "within reason", I hardly believe this qualifies.

You haven't been living with years of rocket attacks. Then we would see what you think qualifies as "within reason". But please keep giving sermons about what Israel should or shouldn't do...I'm sure they care.

[DogOnPorch]

You haven't been living with years of rocket attacks. Then we would see what you think qualifies as "within reason". But please keep giving sermons about what Israel should or shouldn't do...I'm sure they care.

Most would sh*t their pants if a loud firecracker went off next to them let alone a Katushya.

[dre]

All of Israel's actions are in self defense. You might not like how aggressive that defense is, but really, if the Arab world would leave Israel the hell alone, there'd be no more violence. Iran and North Korea export violence. Both of them are led by men with a fanatic fixation, an obsession with punishing those who disagree with their particular political beliefs.

Israel doesn't even have a common border with Iran! There's no cause for Iran to even care about Israel. They're not competitors or rivals of any kind. They're not vying for the same territory. They're not jousting over sea lanes or water or territory. Iran hates Israel because they're Jews. That's the _entire_ reason for their enmity (don't even TRY to suggest Iran has some sort of humanitarian indignation over human rights when it accords NONE to its own people) As for North Korea. I think everyone just wishes they would disappear. Nobody cares about them. Nobody is threatening them. Nobody even has disputes with them other than for the fact they insist on acting like crazed nutbars, attacking other people and threatening to nuke them.

So your three examples consist of two countries who nobody would bother if they'd just leave their neighbours alone, and one country which would never bother its neighbours if they just left THEM alone.

And yet you don't see a difference....

Really? Cause there are countries where slavery goes on. There are countries which are committing acts of genocide. There are nations where whole extended families are thrown into labour camps under conditions so horrible that a major chunk of the prisoners die every year.

I realize the UN doesn't seem to spend a lot of time worrying about them, but even so...

Coming soon to a national capital near you, Vladimir Putin, a man who violently invaded his neighbour on a flimsy pretext and stole a big chunk of their land. How many riots do you think people like you will engage in when he visits?

They arent settling the west bank and drilling wells there for self defense. Theyre doing it because they want the resources there. They need the water. And thats exactly why Israel expanded into the areas they did during the war.

[Borg]

When you lump Israel in with North Korea and Iran, you're really making it hard to take you seriously.

I wonder why anyone would even try in the first place?

Borg

[williat]

You haven't been living with years of rocket attacks. Then we would see what you think qualifies as "within reason". But please keep giving sermons about what Israel should or shouldn't do...I'm sure they care.

You're right I haven't been living with years of rocket attacks, but as an outsider looking at the situation you can understand how it may be difficult to justify such force as retaliation. Have you lived in the years of rocket attacks? If so then your opinion is more valued then mine, if not then I do believe I am entitled to say what I think...don't call it a sermon because you don't like my opinion. That's cool I didn't plan on pleasing everyone with it anyway.

[PIK]

I can't stand dalton, the look of him makes me sick, but I back him here.