Mosque going up in NYC building

[dre]

The quote to which you seem to be responding wasn't mine, but Toadbrother's. That is, the first one, attributed to me, is mine; the second, unattributed, is not. Just to clarify.

Yup. I meant to reply to the second part. You were collateral damage sorry

Edited August 27, 2010 by dre

[Guest American Woman]

Holy , 100 pages discussing what property owners can legally put on their site? Even if in bad taste?

Is all of Manhattan an HOA fiefdom now?

No, we're not discussing what property owners can put on their site. We aren't discussing the "right," which we agree they have, but whether or not it's the right thing to do.

[Shady]

No, we're not discussing what property owners can put on their site. We aren't discussing the "right," which we agree they have, but whether or not it's the right thing to do.

I swear these people are just being purposely obtuse now. Nobody can be that stupid, that long.

[Guest American Woman]

I swear these people are just being purposely obtuse now. Nobody can be that stupid, that long.

Guyser's new to the thread, and I doubt he read the 100+ pages of posts, and therefore could very well be just going on the word of those who have wrongly repeated over and over that that's what the argument is, so I thought I would clarify for him. If he's interested.

[Shady]

Guyser's new to the thread, and I doubt he read the 100+ pages of posts

That's true, good point.

[bloodyminded]

Yup. I meant to reply to the second part. You were collateral damage sorry

[Machjo]

It's useful to note the genesis of the mosque controversy itself:

Pamella Geller. She has a blog called Atlas Shrugs; she founded an organisation called 'Stop Islamization of America (SIOA), and she herself has admitted to receiving funding for her cause by Jihad Watch.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/node/39097

And there you have it in a nutshell. Nothing to do with Islamophobia of course.

[Machjo]

And now she's saying the supporters of the Ground Zero Mosque want to build it in celebration of a victory over America:

http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/pam-geller-insists-she-loves-muslims

Even Fox News challenges her on it!

[Machjo]

And you have to watch the second video on that last link. Hitler raised Muslim armies?

[DogOnPorch]

And you have to watch the second video on that last link. Hitler raised Muslim armies?

Yes...under the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, father of the Palestinian cause...that dead horse I keep whipping. The 13th SS Handschar being the most notorious of these units. They didn't fight on the front lines, but were rather for rear area anti-partisan duties and doing typical SS dirty work in the Balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)

Post WW2, many former Handschar members ended up in the Mufti's army fighting the Israelis in the 48 War.

Edited August 28, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Guest TrueMetis]

Yes...under the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, father of the Palestinian cause...that dead horse I keep whipping. The 13th SS Handschar being the most notorious of these units. They didn't fight on the front lines, but were rather for rear area anti-partisan duties and doing typical SS dirty work in the Balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)

Post WW2, many former Handschar members ended up in the Mufti's army fighting the Israelis in the 48 War.

Semantics but it was not an army.

[Machjo]

Yes...under the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, father of the Palestinian cause...that dead horse I keep whipping. The 13th SS Handschar being the most notorious of these units. They didn't fight on the front lines, but were rather for rear area anti-partisan duties and doing typical SS dirty work in the Balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_(1st_Croatian)

Post WW2, many former Handschar members ended up in the Mufti's army fighting the Israelis in the 48 War.

OK, I stand corrected on that one.

[Machjo]

Below is where I see the local Muslims in NYC went wrong.

I'd say that initially they did everything right. What likely happened is that as the local Muslim community grew, they had to find more space to expand. They'd come across the building two blocks from ground zero, it was for sale at a reasonable price, and so why not buy it?

Some in the community likely raised concerns that owing to their religion, they might be associated with the terrorists of 9/11 if they built so close to Ground Zero, and so just to play it safe, they'd decided to consult with the local city council and other local religious communities to test the waters. Getting the blessings of City Council and various local religious communities, they figured their fears were unfounded, and so went along with the project.

Now this is where I see their first mistake: they'd decided to announce it publicly (though granted it might have been learnt by the general public anyway). They got positive responses from all the mainstream news media, including Fox News. This likely led them to believe that the community truly did not associate them with the actions of the 9/11 terrorists and that they truly were fully accepted as real Americans like any other.

Then things began to change. Pamella Geller got wind of the project and whipped up a storm on her blog Atlas Shrugs, and with great success. This is where I see the local Muslim community's second mistake. Once it had realized that it had truly misjudged things, they should have pulled the plug on the project at that stage.; and if it had already made commitments to the project, then offer Geller's crowd to buy them out in fair compensation, and do it publicly, offering whoever so wishes to buy them out at fair compensation for all losses, or to give them an equivalent space nearby.

Had they done that, they would have thrown the ball squarely into Geller's court.

This is where I see NYC's local Muslim community's two crucial mistakes.

And where I see Geller's mistake is in putting the local Muslim community into a corner, making them feel like they must now stand their ground or lose face. Had she been serious about the preserving that building and not just ranting about Islam, she could easily have collected funds from Jihad Watch and other such organizations, approach the local Muslim community discretely, express her concerns, and offer to buy them out. By doing so behind closed doors, she would not have forced them into a position of having to lose face, and so would likely have succeeded. The way she went about it tells me her primary concern was not preserving that building, but taking tis as an opportunity to trash Muslims publicly.

[Bonam]

Then things began to change. Pamella Geller got wind of the project and whipped up a storm on her blog Atlas Shrugs, and with great success. This is where I see the local Muslim community's second mistake. Once it had realized that it had truly misjudged things, they should have pulled the plug on the project at that stage.; and if it had already made commitments to the project, then offer Geller's crowd to buy them out in fair compensation, and do it publicly, offering whoever so wishes to buy them out at fair compensation for all losses, or to give them an equivalent space nearby.

So basically you are in agreement with most of the opponents of the Mosque. You recognize that it was a "mistake" on the part of the "Muslim community" and that they should have "pulled the plug" on the project.

[Machjo]

Oh, and just a note about 'Muslim Armies'... To say Hitler was inspired by Islam is ludicrous. Muslims were not necessarily suppressed, but their freedom of religion was still restricted. Had he been inspired by Islam, he would have certainly glorified it, no?

[eyeball]

I have to say a mosque at ground zero seems a little like Israel in the Middle East.

One might as well stick their dingus into a hornet's nest.

[Guest American Woman]

Then things began to change. Pamella Geller got wind of the project and whipped up a storm on her blog Atlas Shrugs, and with great success.

Pamela Geller and her blog don't even begin to have that much power. I never even heard of her or her blog and I'm sure the same goes for most Americans. We think for ourselves; we're not a bunch of sheep following some blogger.

[bush_cheney2004]

Pamela Geller and her blog don't even begin to have that much power. I never even heard of her or her blog and I'm sure the same goes for most Americans. We think for ourselves; we're not a bunch of sheep following some blogger.

True...but apparently such American bloggers and other media talking heads are followed very closely by some Canadians!

[Machjo]

So basically you are in agreement with most of the opponents of the Mosque. You recognize that it was a "mistake" on the part of the "Muslim community" and that they should have "pulled the plug" on the project.

Yes, as I'd mentioned earlier. But notice the reason I think they should have puled the plug on the project and the conditions under which they should pull the plug:

1. Reasons:

They'd obviously misjudged public prejudices. They can't be blamed for not being fully cognizant of the extent of these prejudices initially (after all, they're not mind-readers and everyone seemed to support them, from city council to the local religious communities to all the major news networks including Fox News). However, once these prejudices became apparent, then yes, they should have offered to be bought out at a fair price. In other words, it was a bad idea not because they happen to call themselves by the same religion as the people who flew the planes into the buildings on 9/11, but rather because many Americans associate them with those terrorists.

2. conditions:

Seeing that they were misled by so many initially to believe that they were accepted by their non-Muslim compatriots, and that this may have led them to already make a contractual or monetary commitment to the project, certainly they should have no obligation to bow out without fair compensation from those who want them to leave in the first place. In other words, the opposition should put their money where their mouths are.

[Machjo]

Pamela Geller and her blog don't even begin to have that much power. I never even heard of her or her blog and I'm sure the same goes for most Americans. We think for ourselves; we're not a bunch of sheep following some blogger.

She's the one who initially organized these protests. I'm sure many have not heard of her; they'd heard the protests and so jumped on the bandwagon, oblivious of who started the whole thing and how the whole thing started.

[Guest American Woman]

Yes, as I'd mentioned earlier. But notice the reason I think they should have puled the plug on the project ....

Why should we notice the reasons you think they should have pulled the plug? I sure didn't see you noticing the reasons anyone else gave for thinking they should pull the plug.....

[Guest American Woman]

True...but apparently such American bloggers and other media talking heads are followed very closely by some Canadians!

Evidently.

(And I think I finally get you.)

[Machjo]

Why should we notice the reasons you think they should have pulled the plug? I sure didn't see you noticing the reasons anyone else gave for thinking they should pull the plug.....

What I got is that they should pull the plug on it because they happen to share the same religion, at least in name, as those who'd flown the planes into the buildings on 9/11. The difference lies in that had there not been any protest, I would not have seen any problem whatsoever with building the mosque there, unless of course there had already been a movement prior to save that building. Clearly the protest is about Islam and Muslims and not just the mosque itself. So I can argue that I'm not opposed to the mosque being built there in principle, but rather only as a consequence of the protests so as to bring about peace. That's very different from the reasons the protesters have.

[bush_cheney2004]

... So I can argue that I'm not opposed to the mosque being built there in principle, but rather only as a consequence of the protests so as to bring about peace. That's very different from the reasons the protesters have.

That's a very Canadian reason and perspective...anything to "keep the peace"....not as important to Americans, who can protest peacefully if they wish...or not.

[bush_cheney2004]

Evidently.

(And I think I finally get you.)

And I think I have learned something from you in this thread....some Canadians see America only through our media, and often make generalizations and outright distortions based on how they narrowly interpret what they see/hear/read. For most of them, it's the only "empire" they have ever known...as seen through a soda straw.

Canadians who have actually lived or worked in the United States have a broader perspective and reference datum irrespective of American media.