Hudak vs. wind power

[PIK]

Now if we could do something about the elitist attitude at ont hydro , there is some real savings there if you can get some control on the spending. I grew up with hydro people and most of them stole the outfit blind, and then say well they were going to throw out that brand new 1000 dollar tarp (wink wink). Salaries are out of control , 2 men working 8 men standing around , it is a joke and needs to be totally over hauled.

[DFCaper]

Wind and solar power seem to be working in Germany, where alternative energy is becoming a greater and greater share of energy production; so it makes no sense not to encourage alternative energy suppliers. They can be an important contributor in the U.S. and Canada, where lower population densities cause a lot of power to be lost because of the distances the grid has to stretch.

From what I heard is that a lot of the health concerns regarding Wind come from Germany. To show how little concern McGuinty has for the people out of the city, the distance from a residence in Germany is double that of what is required here in SW Ontario. Also, if you want to have a windmill on your farm, you essentially have to go to a Big energy company to be able to get a permit to construct one.

If people here think Wind power is going to be expensive, wait to you start paying for Solar here in Ontario. I knew a couple of farmers that are about to install 20' X 40' solar panels onto there farms. Not to power the house, but to go directly onto the grid. The province is offering 20 year contracts on the electricity generated. They are guaranteed over 80 cents a KWH. That is 10-20 times what we end consumers pay.

I historically spoke out against nuclear power, but I am slowly coming over to agreeing that it is the only logical solution. (WIP maybe to blame). At worst, far superior to what we McGuity is currently doing with a 24+ billion deficit and no plans to eliminate it despite his annual tax increases. McGuinty may even shame me into voting for Hudak before our economy is completely destroyed.

[Remiel]

As a long term solution, the only way I think nuclear energy could possibly work is if experimental fusion reactors like the ITER prove to be succesful. A friend of mine who does energy science has tried to tell me it is a waste of time and money, but for the moment I think I will take the fact that the French scientists working on it know more about energy production that someone working on their undergraduate degree as reason to be more optimistic than that.

Though it remains for the moment more science fiction than science fact, I am also hopeful that space based energy production will be viable, if the requisiste materials and technology can be developed.

But for the meantime, I am all for working on alternative energy sources, other than crop based biofuel, which I think to be a horendous waste.

[margrace]

Really? Does that include clean-coal plants?

Canada is going to need to bring on-line about 60,000 mw of power over the next 25 years. A large wind farm supplies about 100 mw, at a 500% premium in electrical costs.

By comparison, a coal plant can put out 2000mw and a nuclear plant 6,000-8,000mw

Try to pay attention. Paying 5 x more for power not only severely hurts all Ontarions to the tune of something like $500 per month per family, but it will be a huge additional cost for manufacturers - many of whom will decide they can not operate profitably in that costly environment and will move elsewhere - the US or Mexico, for example, where power is comparatively plentiful and cheap.

I have an idea, everyone who objects to windmill should have their power cut off at the end of their driveway. Cost may not be as important as have enough clean power is.

[Wild Bill]

I have an idea, everyone who objects to windmill should have their power cut off at the end of their driveway. Cost may not be as important as have enough clean power is.

Once again, someone has ignored the most important fallacy about wind power! Don't feel bad. Most people do, since most people have no idea at all how electricity and generation systems actually WORK!

If you put up a wind turbine, you immediately have a new problem. It only works when the wind blows! What do you do when the wind stops? If its a home system you can invest in a large and expensive battery bank. This is totally impossible to do on a large scale setup like a provincial power grid that feeds all our cities and towns. The necessary battery technology just doesn't exist! It may be invented someday, but don't expect it by next weekend.

So you HAVE to build a new backup generator for those windless hours and days! This means a generator that can instantly turn on and run as long as is needed, obviously on some kind of fuel. This means coal, gas, hydro or nuclear. In other words, our traditional sources!

Now you have the cost of both the windmills AND the backup generator! Why not simply run the backup generator by itself? Far cheaper!

Some folks will jump in and say "Well, the wind may stop in Windsor but it is still blowing in North Bay! So if we build enough windmills we can always get our clean power from somewhere!"

Once again, this only makes sense if you don't have the background to be aware of the details. Our electricity is handled by a large scale grid that covers the whole province and by extension out to other provinces and states in the USA. There are technical problems that need to be controlled when switching sources and loads over such big distances. Our grid is nowhere near advanced enough to have that capability. Again, it would need a LOT of money spent on improvements, some of which have yet to be invented!

So yes, in THEORY windmills work! They just don't work on a large enough scale. To make them work as we want them to means we will have to spend BAGS AND BAGS OF MONEY!

Right now McGuinty is floating wind and solar power with big subsidies. A subsidy is just having our taxes pay the difference. The money still has to come from somewhere! And before you say its all worth it to become "green", understand that we're not talking an extra 10% on our electricity bills. We're talking double or triple our present bills!

Could any politician sell that to his citizens and expect to stay elected? What could he say to all the manufacturing plants who would go bankrupt paying those kind of fees and would be forced to leave the province for a cheaper jurisdiction?

Hell Margrace, plants are leaving right NOW for that very reason!

Maybe you have some different physics on your end of your driveway and things work by magic.

[WIP]

Once again, someone has ignored the most important fallacy about wind power! Don't feel bad. Most people do, since most people have no idea at all how electricity and generation systems actually WORK!

If you put up a wind turbine, you immediately have a new problem. It only works when the wind blows! What do you do when the wind stops? If its a home system you can invest in a large and expensive battery bank. This is totally impossible to do on a large scale setup like a provincial power grid that feeds all our cities and towns. The necessary battery technology just doesn't exist! It may be invented someday, but don't expect it by next weekend.

Okay, now since you are such a believer in big power, tell me what would be wrong with allowing businesses and private individuals put up their windmills and connect with the grid? During those times when the wind isn't blowing, they have to buy electricity (but they have to do that anyway under the current system), but when the wind is blowing, they are not drawing on the grid for power, and may have surplus electricity to sell back. The batteries problem is a fallacy, they're not necessary.

Here's another example of bureaucracy missing an opportunity to harness waste energy for the production of electricity at Dofasco from last year: http://www.thestar.com/article/580739 Historically, the Ontario Hydro wouldn't allow any power suppliers into their monopoly, and there still seems to be resistance to allowing smaller players onto the grid.

[Wild Bill]

Okay, now since you are such a believer in big power, tell me what would be wrong with allowing businesses and private individuals put up their windmills and connect with the grid? During those times when the wind isn't blowing, they have to buy electricity (but they have to do that anyway under the current system), but when the wind is blowing, they are not drawing on the grid for power, and may have surplus electricity to sell back. The batteries problem is a fallacy, they're not necessary.

Here's another example of bureaucracy missing an opportunity to harness waste energy for the production of electricity at Dofasco from last year: http://www.thestar.com/article/580739 Historically, the Ontario Hydro wouldn't allow any power suppliers into their monopoly, and there still seems to be resistance to allowing smaller players onto the grid.

Who said I was a believer in "big power"? Obviously, you haven't read many of my posts. I've stated before that I believe the best system would be to get off the grid entirely and be free of political influence!

The problem with your scenario is that when the wind isn't blowing the central grid HAS to have the capability to supply enough power! That's why wind and even solar forces the grid to have sufficient backup generation. That was the main point of my last post! Didn't you actually read it?

As for individuals selling surplus power, McGuinty is away ahead of you! He has come out with his "MicroFit" program. You could put up a windmill or cover your roof in solar cells. Your existing power demands would stay as they have always been with you having a meter and paying 3.5 cents per Kw or whatever. Your "green power" would be fed to the grid through another meter and you would be paid 13.5 cents/kw for wind power and 80 cents for solar!

Sounds great until you examine the details. First off, you can't install your own systems. They have to be installed by "approved" contractors using "approved" equipment. The excuse is to make sure things are safe. However, you now have to pay whatever those contractors and approved manufacturers want to charge. Normally, you can wire up your own house to save money and as long as its inspected by an Ontario Power inspector before you hook up to the mains its ok! So it's no surprise that your installation will be very expensive. Your payback is likely to be at least 10-15 years. You will have put up perhaps $40,000 of your own money to get in the game.

Now if a lot of people enrol in this program that is going to be a HUGE financial burden on Ontario Power Corp to pay 80 cents/kwh! When it gets to a considerable sum it will certainly become a burden on the company's profitability. Of a certainty, the province will have to bail them out! The money will become an issue and there will be questions about how can taxpayers afford it!

Now McGuinty's plan is based on a 20 year contract but what happens if we have a different government or maybe even a new Liberal government who decides we just can't afford the subsidy and pulls the plug on all the contracts! If you haven't had enough time to at least reach breakeven then you lose a big chunk of your investment!

Worse yet, you can't even use the installation for your own power! There's no battery bank! You would have to pony up for an expensive battery system to get some use out of the installation.

In many American States they have systems more like you propose. People have their own off-grid power system but they have a bi-directional meter. If they have surplus power the meter is driven "backwards", reducing your bill and perhaps even driving up a small profit for yourself! This allows a modest battery bank that is not so expensive. You ALWAYS have power for yourself and if at times you need more than your own system has available you can draw extra from the grid, replacing it when demand is lower.

Now McGuinty's plan ensures that you HAVE to stay connected to Ontario Power! Your own power comes in the same way it always has. You do NOT get any of your wind or solar produced power! That is fed through a separate meter onto the grid.

Since you retain your regular utility account then you also keep getting billed that fee to eventually pay off that "stranded debt" of 30 some odd BILLION dollars for the patronage, slush funds and general ripoff of the nuclear power plants for all those years. McGuinty's MicroFit program does not encourage a user to use his wind and solar power for himself first, selling only the excess. The "normal" electricity account stays active, charging us for that ripoff debt.

Would you care to comment if this is by accident or deliberate design?

[dre]

There's wind everywhere. The problem with wind turbines is they're not very reliable, and the energey they generate costs five times more than the energy generated by gas, coal or nuclear plants.

Got a source for that horseshit?

[Moonbox]

Got a source for that horseshit?

How about you spend 30 seconds looking it up yourself before you start swearing at him champ.

Regardless, wind and solar power are SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive and we're being ripped off with the wind and solar farms being build all over the place now. Guaranteed profit for farmers and rip off rates for us and the gov't? Obviously this is good for Ontario........

[dre]

How about you spend 30 seconds looking it up yourself before you start swearing at him champ.

Regardless, wind and solar power are SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive and we're being ripped off with the wind and solar farms being build all over the place now. Guaranteed profit for farmers and rip off rates for us and the gov't? Obviously this is good for Ontario........

How about you spend 30 seconds looking it up yourself before you start swearing at him champ.

How about people backing up the claims they make on here, instead of pulling fake data out of their asses?

Wind energy it not 5X as expensive as conventional power. Its not even 2 times as expensive. And the cost of wind energy is coming down while the cost of conventional energy is for the most part going up.

[Wild Bill]

How about people backing up the claims they make on here, instead of pulling fake data out of their asses?

Wind energy it not 5X as expensive as conventional power. Its not even 2 times as expensive. And the cost of wind energy is coming down while the cost of conventional energy is for the most part going up.

Assuming that's true only for the sake of argument, so what? What happens when the wind stops? Since you can't store power in a large central grid then you must either build more conventional generators for backup or suffer blackouts on windless days.

Unless you have some solution the experts haven't heard of that you care to share...

[dre]

Assuming that's true only for the sake of argument, so what? What happens when the wind stops? Since you can't store power in a large central grid then you must either build more conventional generators for backup or suffer blackouts on windless days.

Unless you have some solution the experts haven't heard of that you care to share...

The experts know the answer to that. Its called the Distributed Grid. You dont rely on one source of power you have a diverse array of different types of generating capacity. A simple example would be a wind farm coupled with a hyrdoelectic facility. When its windy the hyrdo facility can be building up head in its resevoir. When its not windy that facility is generating to pick up the slack. The result is that both facilities are well utilized and theres more net power.

[Wild Bill]

The experts know the answer to that. Its called the Distributed Grid. You dont rely on one source of power you have a diverse array of different types of generating capacity. A simple example would be a wind farm coupled with a hyrdoelectic facility. When its windy the hyrdo facility can be building up head in its resevoir. When its not windy that facility is generating to pick up the slack. The result is that both facilities are well utilized and theres more net power.

We've already discussed this. I guess it was before you dropped in. We don't have grids with that distribution capacity over large enough areas of geography. We would have to build them. We also do not have all the necessary technology at hand. We would have to develop it. The necessary building and developing will also cost us a LOT of money and will take a few years at least to make happen.

We have barely enough generating capacity for the present demand. If McGuinty closes down coal fired generators and replaces them with wind turbines then when the wind stops we will have MUCH less available capacity!

This is why technical details should never be left to politicians and political science students. If you don't know how to build a generator or a motor yourself then you're simply not qualified to make these decisions. Judging by McGuinty's words, I wouldn't trust him to replace a plug on a lamp! He and his people obviously have zero background in understanding this technology. His initial promise to close down the coal-fired plants while being totally ignorant of the need to be able to replace that power set the tone for everything he's suggested since. The man is a "techno-rube", pure and simple!

The problem is that all of us in the province are going to pay the cost of his ignorance! What he needs to do is to keep going with the wind turbines, get some more nukes up and running to provide all the backup capacity we need and THEN shut down the coal generators! He won't do this because he feels political pressure to close them down before the next election. The nukes will take much longer to be built and come on stream. So he will most likely have to buy power elsewhere, at whatever gouging price and assuming New York has excess available, or we will have blackouts.

It's that simple! If you don't have enough power WHEN YOU NEED IT the lights will go out!

[dre]

I would agree with most of what you said. Remember... I didnt come on here claiming wind farms are some kind of panacea. I didnt even defend them... I noticed someone pulling fake information from deep within their rectal cavity and asked for a source. Nothing more.

As for the distributed grid and the other components of the next energy age I think it will take decades to build all that shit, and lots of capital investment. But that seems like an even better reason to start now.

[Topaz]

Here's something to think about, IF everyone could get their own turbine and sell it back to the Hydro companies then what would happen? I say with less people PAYING the price of hydro, then the price will go up because there is still a huge debt in Ontario Hydro and less people paying. Its the same as people cutting abck their usage, they would up there price.

[eyeball]

I hope Tidal doesn't, it would do to much damage to the enviroment and generates to little power, a magazine I was reading claimed that even if we used all current areas that could support tidal we would only produce some 60 gigawatts. If we got the tech good enough to use all tidal energy available in the ocean maybe 2 terra watts. Which would destroy the oceans of course because all tidal currents would be bloked by these generators.

Harnessing the ocean's wave energy is a far better option.

[margrace]

How about you spend 30 seconds looking it up yourself before you start swearing at him champ.

Regardless, wind and solar power are SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive and we're being ripped off with the wind and solar farms being build all over the place now. Guaranteed profit for farmers and rip off rates for us and the gov't? Obviously this is good for Ontario........

One of the reasons wind power is so much more expensive is because of the lack of will to build the towers in Canada. Somebody in their wisdom, probably paid by big hydro turned down the opportunity. Now they are built in Denmark and have to be shipped here. The same with solar power, so much antaganism has been generated agains it that people are afraid to buy it. The more things are bought and used the cheaper they become.

One of the things people need to do is go near a big hydro transformer serving several homes and listen to the noise it makes. That hum can be very agravating and must bother the brain, the whosh of a big blade is soothing beside that. There is always noise from the big hydro towers as well and they are subject to ice storms, for instance what happened to them in the huge ice storm in eastern Ontario some years ago. A lot of the arguments on here are straw arguments and probably are fueled by big business and a very regressive federal gov't paid for by big business concerns.

[Wild Bill]

One of the reasons wind power is so much more expensive is because of the lack of will to build the towers in Canada. Somebody in their wisdom, probably paid by big hydro turned down the opportunity. Now they are built in Denmark and have to be shipped here. The same with solar power, so much antaganism has been generated agains it that people are afraid to buy it. The more things are bought and used the cheaper they become.

One of the things people need to do is go near a big hydro transformer serving several homes and listen to the noise it makes. That hum can be very agravating and must bother the brain, the whosh of a big blade is soothing beside that. There is always noise from the big hydro towers as well and they are subject to ice storms, for instance what happened to them in the huge ice storm in eastern Ontario some years ago. A lot of the arguments on here are straw arguments and probably are fueled by big business and a very regressive federal gov't paid for by big business concerns.

Margrace, do YOU know how a motor works? Or a generator?

Can you replace a plug on a lamp?

The technical problems with alternative power have been stated repeatedly in this thread and then you jump in with a post that ignores all of them! They are based on the Laws of Mother Nature and she couldn't care less if you're a big businessman or a poli-sci student.

[Aankara]

This is a difficult one. Not for your example. You can't hang someone on a "what if". You can "what if" anything! We have no way of knowing what Hudak would do with another kind of generator.

We can only deal with the wind turbine issue and it's more complicated than your OP spells out. Is the fuss against wind turbines by themselves? Or with where McGuinty wants to place them?

So far McGuinty and his crew have never impressed me with how they deal with anything the slightest bit technical. I'm still pissed about doing my laundry after 10:00 pm to save on my electrical bill! Frankly, I don't think anyone in his entire caucus could replace a plug on a bedroom lamp.

Anyhow, so far McGuinty DOES seem to be plunking these things down where ever he wants and if the residents have issues he just blows them off by saying it's just NIMBYism on their part! Isn't it at all possible that in some situations residents WILL be bothered by a wind farm close by?

It's similar to how the city of Hamilton, after drafting all the suburbs into itself with amalgamation, put a methane recovery system into a dump in Glanbrook, a nearby farming community. This was just done as a fait accompli, with no local consultation. True to form for Hamilton, they screwed up the installation and for months the stench drifting over to many farmers homes was so bad that they couldn't sit outside!

Now mistakes do happen, of course. Eventually Hamilton fixed the problem. My point however is that at the beginning they blew off the local residents affected as "grumblers" who didn't understand the "needs of the many". That ignited a political firestorm and the Mayor had to do a lot of damage control.

Politicians can be arrogant and McGuinty has always struck me as a prime example. Somebody has to champion the underdog. We need more info about this situation before we can take an informed position.

Hey - you're lucky you can do your laundry after 10 to save money - I have to wait until the weekend!! (lol)

[Argus]

Got a source for that horseshit?

Gee, why am I not surprised an airhead like you would be fiercely devoted to wind power?

egent then casts its eye into 2011, as a number of generators with a combined capacity of 5,000 megawatts start supplying power at rates considerably higher than the current market rate of about 3.8 cents a kilowatt hour (kwh).

Some additional nuclear generation will get seven cents a kilowatt hour, Aegent estimates. A number of wind developments will come on stream, paid 14 cents a kwh, and some solar power at 44 cents a kwh.

Toronto Star

[dre]

Gee, why am I not surprised an airhead like you would be fiercely devoted to wind power?

egent then casts its eye into 2011, as a number of generators with a combined capacity of 5,000 megawatts start supplying power at rates considerably higher than the current market rate of about 3.8 cents a kilowatt hour (kwh).

Some additional nuclear generation will get seven cents a kilowatt hour, Aegent estimates. A number of wind developments will come on stream, paid 14 cents a kwh, and some solar power at 44 cents a kwh.

Toronto Star

That source does nothing to back up your statement at all. Just more horseshit.

[Argus]

That source does nothing to back up your statement at all. Just more horseshit.

Perhaps your view is predicated upon the current location of your head.

Let us examine what you find so outrageous.

and the energey they generate costs five times more than the energy generated by gas, coal or nuclear plant

Now let us examine the cite you claim doesn't back that up.

the current market rate of about 3.8 cents a kilowatt hour (kwh).

Some additional nuclear generation will get seven cents a kilowatt hour, Aegent estimates. A number of wind developments will come on stream, paid 14 cents a kwh, and some solar power at 44 cents a kwh.

Seems to back it up pretty well to me. Perhaps your issues with view might be resolved by pulling your head out of its current location.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Argus

[dre]

Perhaps your view is predicated upon the current location of your head.

Let us examine what you find so outrageous.

and the energey they generate costs five times more than the energy generated by gas, coal or nuclear plant

Now let us examine the cite you claim doesn't back that up.

the current market rate of about 3.8 cents a kilowatt hour (kwh).

Some additional nuclear generation will get seven cents a kilowatt hour, Aegent estimates. A number of wind developments will come on stream, paid 14 cents a kwh, and some solar power at 44 cents a kwh.

Seems to back it up pretty well to me. Perhaps your issues with view might be resolved by pulling your head out of its current location.

Again... that source (which isnt even right) does not support your claim that wind is 5 times as expensive as gas, coal, or nuclear power.

Your article mentions a price for wind at 14 cents.

It mentions a current market rate of 3.8 cents... Does 14 = 5*3.8? No.

It mentions a price for nuclear of 7 cents... Does 14 = 5*7? No again.

Most of the comparisons I can find on the costs of wind and other technologies look something like this.

[William Ashley]

The Conservatives say they stand with “local families” who oppose wind turbines. I'd like to know if Hudak would be standing with "local families" if a major conservative benefactor wanted to build a gas, coal-fired or nuclear power station next door!

There is plenty of space not in the residential living areas for large wind turbines.

This is a local issue that has to do with zoning allowances.

The fact is though, the massive industrial size generators shouldn't be in residential areas. But in terms of remote areas, who cares.

[Remiel]

A couple weeks ago I was walking by the waterfront in downtown Kingston. From there, you can look across the water and see the wind turbines all spinning on Wolfe Island. It was the first time I had seen it, because I am not in Kingston much these days, and I found it rather surreal.

Alternative energy sources may not be the best from an economic stand point right now, but I am betting that they will yet come into their own. They may cost more now, but who is to say that will be the continue to be the case if something *does* happen to the oil and uranium markets? One thing they have going for them: their fuel may not run at 100% efficiency all the time, but it never, ever, runs out.