Bush knew detainees were innocent

[Moonlight Graham]

If you think they feel any differently about Canada/Canadians, guess again. If they do, it's only because they believe Canada in it's "tolerance" will look the other way when their beliefs go against Canadian/Democratic principles. Look at how some of the ME immigrants have talked about Canada, and those are people who Canada took in. If you honestly believe they actually think higher of Canadian infidels than they do American infidels, you are either naive or living in a dream world -- or possibly both.

Radical Islamic fundamentalists want Islam to take over the world, and any non-Muslim to them are "infidels" whom they wage jihad against. Yes, this includes Canada and i'm not dumb enough to think we are immune to attacks and hatred from these wackos. The "Toronto 18" terror plot proves this well.

However, the vast majority of Muslims in the ME are not radical fundamentalists waging global jihad. Among these people, they dislike the US more than Canada. That's just a fact. I've never seen any footage of people in the ME or anywhere for that matter burning a Canadian flag. That just comes with the territory with the US being a superpower and Canada doing jack all in the region until recently under Harper. I don't think that Canadian foreign policy is "better" than the US, because maybe our government would be doing very similar things as the US if it were the global hegemonic power and would be resented similarly by certain people in the world. The US is the #1 power, therefore it has a target on its back and would be resented no matter what policies it chose.

It seems to me as if some Canadians have convinced themselves that they are loved worldwide. That everyone respects Canadians. Even Harper said at the G20 summit last year that Canada is the one country in the room that everybody in the room would like to be. What an illusion.

As smallc said, Harper said that in regards to Canada's economy during this recession. Our economic system is being studied as model for other countries because of its resilience during this recession, i'm not bragging, that's just what people are saying & i'm responding to your quote.

Generally, Canada is viewed favourably throughout the world. Thems just the facts too. Like i said, i don't see any people burning Canadian flags.

[bloodyminded]

Then...DUH...why did they still vote for war if it was an obvious "fabrication"? Maybe it had something to do with an earlier resolution for regime change in Iraq? Or expelled UNSCOM inspectors?

Pulled out; not expelled.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm not sure you're taking that in context. He was specifically referring to the fiscal health of this country in comparison to almost all other G20 countries.

Doesn't matter that he was referring to the fiscal health of Canada. No matter what Canada's fiscal health is compared to almost all other G20 countries, doesn't mean every country wants to be Canada. That's the context I was taking it in. He didn't say 'Canada's fiscal health is where every country wants to be;' he said every country in the room wants to be Canada. And he did say "every country in the room." And trust me. They don't, fiscal health and all. Seems to me that statement was just more of the 'Canada is admired by all' attitude that I was referring to. And of course it's not all Canadians, as I said. But it's a good number of them.

And I was posting in response to the comment that the U.S. is hated in the ME. Like I said, it's not just the U.S. Canadians just aren't admired to the extent that some think they are while Americans aren't hated to the extent that these same people think they are.

Edited April 19, 2010 by American Woman

[bloodyminded]

Seems to me that statement was just more of the 'Canada is admired by all' attitude that I was referring to. And of course it's not all Canadians, as I said. But it's a good number of them.

This kind of stuff is mere conventional pieties. I wish leaders wouldn't bother, but since they do, I wish people would agree with your take, AW, and simply not take it seriously. It's boring nationalism.

[Shady]

Seems to me that statement was just more of the 'Canada is admired by all' attitude that I was referring to. And of course it's not all Canadians, as I said. But it's a good number of them.

You're exactly right. It's part of our pseudo-superiority complex. But it's a complex that's mostly reflected by Canadian's of the left. You know the kind. The one's that are suppose to be so open-minded, understanding, and compassionate. However, that openmindedness, understanding and compassion usually doesn't extend to countires of the west, and definitely doesn't extend to evil America/Americans.

[BubberMiley]

You're exactly right. It's part of our pseudo-superiority complex. But it's a complex that's mostly reflected by Canadian's of the left. You know the kind. The one's that are suppose to be so open-minded, understanding, and compassionate. However, that openmindedness, understanding and compassion usually doesn't extend to countires of the west, and definitely doesn't extend to evil America/Americans.

I enjoy how some can spew their hatred of the U.S.'s government ad infinitum and still be self-righteous about those who criticize the U.S. It must take work to be such a hypocrite.

[bloodyminded]

I enjoy how some can spew their hatred of the U.S.'s government ad infinitum and still be self-righteous about those who criticize the U.S. It must take work to be such a hypocrite.

When you take your cue exclusively from right-wing American punditry, then you will begin to view liberal (maybe even centrist) Americans as somehow "unAmerican," I guess.

Though why this should be of bitter concern to a Canadian remains a mystery.

Edited April 19, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Born Free]

You're exactly right. It's part of our pseudo-superiority complex. But it's a complex that's mostly reflected by Canadian's of the left. You know the kind. The one's that are suppose to be so open-minded, understanding, and compassionate. However, that openmindedness, understanding and compassion usually doesn't extend to countires of the west, and definitely doesn't extend to evil America/Americans.

Americans arent evil...just the GOP guys...

[Shady]

When you take your cue exclusively from right-wing American punditry, then you will begin to view liberal (maybe even centrist) Americans as somehow "unAmerican," I guess.

Though why this should be of bitter concern to a Canadian remains a mystery.

First. I don't think Bubber takes his cue exclusively from right-wing American punditry. Second. What happens in and to America has a very significant impact on the health and well-being of our nation.

[Born Free]

I enjoy how some can spew their hatred of the U.S.'s government ad infinitum and still be self-righteous about those who criticize the U.S. It must take work to be such a hypocrite.

I only disrespect the former US government leadership. However, there are lots of Americans today who hate their Federal government. For example, the Teabaggers seem to only only want to pay taxes to a white guy...

[bloodyminded]

First. I don't think Bubber takes his cue exclusively from right-wing American punditry.

?? I was speaking of you, Shady.

Second. What happens in and to America has a very significant impact on the health and well-being of our nation.

No doubt. the point was that you are highly critical of America...unless it is some Creationist "hockey mom," or something. You are arguably more critical of America than anyone here.

[Shady]

Pulled out; not expelled.

Yes, pulled out because they weren't allowed to do their jobs properly. And then not allowed back in. But please don't allow my critique to in any way lessen the support and continued excuse making you put forth for murderous dictators such as Saddam Hussein.

[bloodyminded]

Yes, pulled out because they weren't allowed to do their jobs properly. And then not allowed back in. But please don't allow my critique to in any way lessen the support and continued excuse making you put forth for murderous dictators such as Saddam Hussein.

To say that "pulled out" and "expelled" are precise synonyms doesn't do much for civil debate, now, does it?

At any rate, your claim--that "they weren't allowed to do their jobs properly"--is contradicted by the man who was the Chief Unscom Weapons Inspector. He says your claim, often repeated without evidence, of course, is flatly untrue.

And, as Chief Inspector, perhaps he knows the situation better than you do.

Also, I've never made excuses for Saddam Hussein. That was Rumsfeld et al.

Edited April 20, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Shady]

No doubt. the point was that you are highly critical of America...unless it is some Creationist "hockey mom," or something. You are arguably more critical of America than anyone here.

That's just not true. I'm highly critical of the current American administration. However, I'm quite supportive of America as a whole. American's are not dumb. America is a force for good in the world. Always has been. America is a beacon of freedom and liberty most countries, if not all, can look up to. And that opinion of mine doesn't change, regardless of who's in office.

And I don't hold some pseudo-superiority complex the way those of you on the left hold regarding America and Americans. Whether it be over certain domestic policy, such as welfare, healthcare or gun laws. Or over certain foreign policy, such as military force vs peace keepering.

Lets face it. The American's are 'dumb, stupid, or arrogant' memes all originate from the left in Canada, not the right.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Shady

[Born Free]

That's just not true. I'm highly critical of the current American administration. However, I'm quite supportive of America as a whole. American's are not dumb. America is a force for good in the world. Always has been. America is a beacon of freedom and liberty most countries, if not all, can look up to. And that opinion of mine doesn't change, regardless of who's in office.

And I don't hold some pseudo-superiority complex the way those of you on the left hold regarding America and Americans. Whether it be over certain domestic policy, such as welfare, healthcare or gun laws. Or over certain foreign policy, such as military force vs peace keepering.

Lets face it. The American's are 'dumb, stupid, or arrogant' memes all originate from the left in Canada, not the right.

Those horrible left folks...shame on them for being left...the right are perfect and they all think alike...

[BubberMiley]

Lets face it. The American's are 'dumb, stupid, or arrogant' memes all originate from the left in Canada, not the right.

Unless, of course, it's you talking about their leadership.

[punked]

Yes, pulled out because they weren't allowed to do their jobs properly. And then not allowed back in. But please don't allow my critique to in any way lessen the support and continued excuse making you put forth for murderous dictators such as Saddam Hussein.

What are talking about the American Right loves murderous dictators.

Roberto Suazo Cordova

General Manuel Noriega

General Efrain Rios Mont

And those are just the south American ones.

[bush_cheney2004]

What are talking about the American Right loves murderous dictators.

Roberto Suazo Cordova

General Manuel Noriega

General Efrain Rios Mont

And those are just the south American ones.

So does the American left for that matter....even Canada's "left" helped Indonesia "murder" East Timor.

[bloodyminded]

That's just not true. I'm highly critical of the current American administration. However, I'm quite supportive of America as a whole. American's are not dumb. America is a force for good in the world. Always has been. America is a beacon of freedom and liberty most countries, if not all, can look up to. And that opinion of mine doesn't change, regardless of who's in office.

America has been a crucial disseminator of important ideas about liberty, and I believe this has had some positive influence. But to say flatly that the country "is a force for good in the world" is far too simplistic. All of the most powerful countries, without exception, have a lot of unjustifiable blood on their hands. To place ideas as objectively more real than reality itself is not useful to any discussion.

That's not a "left wing" belief, but an incontestable fact of life.

And I don't hold some pseudo-superiority complex the way those of you on the left hold regarding America and Americans. Whether it be over certain domestic policy, such as welfare, healthcare or gun laws. Or over certain foreign policy, such as military force vs peace keepering.

Unless the globe is "left wing," then clearly the critiques of the United States is not a left wing phenomenon. Ask the conservative Catholic peasantry of Latin America, or the conservative Orthodox Muslims of Asia, or the people of every and any political stripe in any number of places. Most people seem to have an ambivalent view of the country: admiring some factors, despising others. Indeed, I'd argue this is the only sane stance. But it's true, there's a lot of criticism of the US that is reflexive, or ill-considered, or both. However, you should be less promiscuous in your condemnations, which adhere to the conventional left=bad, right=good divide; these are meaningless demographics in terms of your argument. For instance, I don't consider Canada to be somehow "morally superior" to the U.S. If Canada were the superpower, I see no reason to believe we'd behave in a substantively different manner. Considering Canadian foreign policy behaviour, it would be ludicrous to think so.

Besides, nations are not moral agents.

Lets face it. The American's are 'dumb, stupid, or arrogant' memes all originate from the left in Canada, not the right.

No, they come from every direction. They're false, I agree, but this is a predictable effect of power.

[Shady]

But to say flatly that the country "is a force for good in the world" is far too simplistic.

True. It's been a force for good more than not.

Unless the globe is "left wing," then clearly the critiques of the United States is not a left wing phenomenon.

I wasn't referring to the world, I was referring to Canadian's of the left.

But it's true, there's a lot of criticism of the US that is reflexive, or ill-considered, or both.

Yes, there certainly is. And it resides mostly from the left in our country. Also perpetuated by of the left politicians in Canada.

Besides, nations are not moral agents.

I disagree with your premise, or the premise you lifted from Salman Rushdie.

[bloodyminded]

True. It's been a force for good more than not.

Well, that's a theory. At any rate, you have softened your stance here, from hero-worship to mere admiration.

I wasn't referring to the world, I was referring to Canadian's of the left.

Left wing Canadians are a sector of the world. And my point was that so many of the things you and your comrades like to paint as sins of the left are actually common global opinions.

Yes, there certainly is. And it resides mostly from the left in our country. Also perpetuated by of the left politicians in Canada.

That's not true. I have heard criticisms of the US, not all of them very good ones, all my life, from all walks of life.

I disagree with your premise, or the premise you lifted from Salman Rushdie.

It's not my premise, nor is it Salman Rushdie's. We just happen to agree with the elementary truism, with the basic objective fact.

Edited April 21, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Shady]

Well, that's a theory.

Nope, it's history. Look it up sometime!

Left wing Canadians are a sector of the world. And my point was that so many of the things you and your comrades like to paint as sins of the left are actually common global opinions.

Well, that's a theory. And it could be true. But again, I was focusing on what I've witnessed as a Canadian, in Canada, and by many of the left in this forum.

That's not true. I have heard criticisms of the US, not all of them very good ones, all my life, from all walks of life.

Yes, that may be true. But the majority of people in this country who like to push American stereotypes are Canadians of the left. I'm sorry you don't like it, but facts are facts. Which federal party was it again, who's member stomped on a George W Bush doll? I forget.

It's not my premise, nor is it Salman Rushdie's. We just happen to agree with the elementary truism, with the basic objective fact.

Well, I'll agree that it's elementary, but very subjective. Nations can absolutely be moral agents, as well as immoral agents, through the values they base their society on. Nations that protect human rights and espouse freedom for example.

[bloodyminded]

Nope, it's history. Look it up sometime!

We could go back and forth forever, determining how many "good" things the country has done, as opposed to how many "bad" things. But it would be a waste of time, since we doubtless wouldn't even come to agreement on basic facts, much less an interpretation of their intents and effects.

Well, that's a theory. And it could be true. But again, I was focusing on what I've witnessed as a Canadian, in Canada, and by many of the left in this forum.

Well, no. The Canadian Right is far harsher and more insulting towards the current American government than is the Canadian left. And of course the reverse was true under President Bush.

But if you're not talking about government and policy, but rather the American people...well, I don't think you're right. Especially since they're not a homogeneous mass of like-minded people, but an extremely diverse array.

Yes, that may be true. But the majority of people in this country who like to push American stereotypes are Canadians of the left. I'm sorry you don't like it, but facts are facts. Which federal party was it again, who's member stomped on a George W Bush doll? I forget.

1. That is not good behaviour for a party member. (I'm sure we agree at least on that.)

2. President Bush is not, and was not, "America."

3. The Liberal Party is not "left wing."

Well, I'll agree that it's elementary, but very subjective. Nations can absolutely be moral agents, as well as immoral agents, through the values they base their society on. Nations that protect human rights and espouse freedom for example.

But a country will protect human rights in some cases, and undermine them in other cases. But at any rate, my point was that the primary directives are rarely to "do good" (or evil), but to maintain, and hopefully increase, their power.

[Shady]

Well, no. The Canadian Right is far harsher and more insulting towards the current American government than is the Canadian left. And of course the reverse was true under President Bush.

I wasn't referring to the American government. I was referring to Americans in general. Canadians of the left, regardless of which party is in power in Washington, negatively stereotype Americans on a regular basis. Usually to feed their pseudo-superiority complex.

[GostHacked]

If you think they feel any differently about Canada/Canadians, guess again. If they do, it's only because they believe Canada in it's "tolerance" will look the other way when their beliefs go against Canadian/Democratic principles. Look at how some of the ME immigrants have talked about Canada, and those are people who Canada took in. If you honestly believe they actually think higher of Canadian infidels than they do American infidels, you are either naive or living in a dream world -- or possibly both.

It seems to me as if some Canadians have convinced themselves that they are loved worldwide. That everyone respects Canadians. Even Harper said at the G20 summit last year that Canada is the one country in the room that everybody in the room would like to be. What an illusion.

We never hear them complain about Canadian Infidels.