Liberals talk Gutting health care

[bush_cheney2004]

Perhaps Saudi kings fly to the Mayo Clinic due to reputation. As an example, Princess Margaret is easily one of the best cancer hospitals in the world. I'm willing to bet the difference is in how much money each hospital puts in to their annual advertising budgets and that the Mayo Clinic or John Hopkins spends significantly more.

I'm sure they do, but even Canadians so enthralled with Princess Margaret hospital know that there still is something better. And so does the rest of the deep pocketed or insured world, like PM Chretien, Belinda Stronach, Mr. Williams, etc. Hell, even "average" Canadian Janes and Joes are sent "south" when their province comes up short on facilities and long on waits.

[nicky10013]

I'm sure they do, but even Canadians so enthralled with Princess Margaret hospital know that there still is something better. And so does the rest of the deep pocketed or insured world, like PM Chretien, Belinda Stronach, Mr. Williams, etc. Hell, even "average" Canadian Janes and Joes are sent "south" when their province comes up short on facilities and long on waits.

What your missing is the province still pays.

The one example of Jane and Joe Canadian that comes to mind is the lady that the Mayo Clinic used in their ads as someone who came from Canada for care because she had a serious "brain tumor" even though it was a benign cyst that Canadian doctors were merely observing. She wanted it out, which is understandable. "Unfortunately" in Canada you don't have the same opportunity to do procedures on demand as you do in the states. She went to the US, had it removed. That's the only thing hear inf the US. She was a spokesperson for the anti-health care reform and made big bucks. She had to make big bucks though because the other side of the story that was reported here is that she took out a huge loan for the procedure and lost her house. There's two sides to every story.

[Michael Hardner]

Right, but our health care system is something that we deal with every day. People seem to like it and want to improve it on a similar foundation.

People want these things, but they're not paying enough attention to ensure that it happens. I for one await some leadership to address the public inertia, and I believe a two-tier approach would be an easy way to address that inertia.

[Michael Hardner]

I wanted too point out too people who say costs are growing. They aren't, they have been steady at around 40% of all levels of government for about 40 years now, costs are going up on medicines. WHICH ARE A PRIVATE INDUSTRY.

Again, these types of statistics are debated and aren't universally accepted. It's hard to compare 40 years ago to today, but costs do increase by more than inflation on average.

[bush_cheney2004]

What your missing is the province still pays.

Of course they still pay.....doesn't change the fact of lacking facilities and medical professionals....some who have gone "south" long ago.

..."Unfortunately" in Canada you don't have the same opportunity to do procedures on demand as you do in the states. She went to the US, had it removed. That's the only thing hear inf the US. She was a spokesperson for the anti-health care reform and made big bucks. She had to make big bucks though because the other side of the story that was reported here is that she took out a huge loan for the procedure and lost her house. There's two sides to every story.

There would be no story if the procedures and professionals were readily available in Canada. Even America's harshest critics concede that there is simply a lot more available in the USA for the latest technology and procedures (i.e capacity). Americans pay more because they get more.

[Michael Hardner]

I'd like to know what the US does better than us, from MD's I know who are familiar with the US they don't have much to offer...what I'd really like to know is how France manages to have more hospital beds and personnel than we do for the about the same cost...

Maybe the key is better management. I have dealt with doctors committees in the past through my work, and my experience is that they're not results-oriented as much as they are discussion-oriented.

[Michael Hardner]

I was talking about scrutinizing the top of the pyramid. But you're probably right, Canadians just do not seem to be very interested in transparency or accountability. Probably because they don't believe it's possible.

I wonder if we'll deserve the corporations we get any more than we've deserved the government's we've had?

The top of the pyramid would be your provincial Minister of Health. I don't think I can even name the one for Ontario and most would say I'm relatively well-informed on political issues.

The corporations we have will die or be bought out if they don't serve their customers, but not so with our health monopoly.

[waldo]

Americans pay more because they get more.

doubtful... but you certainly are beholding to the likes of Aetna, American Association of Retired Persons, American Family Insurance, American National Insurance Company, Amerigroup, Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield, Assurant, Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association, Celtic Insurance Company, Centene Corporation, Cigna, Coventry Health Care, EmblemHealth, Fortis, Golden RuleInsurance Company, Group Health Cooperative, Health Net, HealthMarkets, HealthSpring, Humana Inc., Independence Blue Cross, Independent Health, Intermountain Health Care, Kaiser Permanente, LifeWise Health Plan of Oregon, Magellan Health Services, Medical Mutual of Ohio, Metropolitan Health Networks, Molina Healthcare, Premera, Principal Financial Group, Regence Group, Scott & White, Shelter Insurance Companies, Thrivent Financial for Lutherans, UnitedHealth Group, Unitrin, Universial American, WellCare Health Plans and Wellpoint

how's that been working out for you so far?

[bush_cheney2004]

how's that been working out for you so far?

Work's out great for me and my family.....double coverage....double medical and double dental. Not sure what it ahs to do with Canadian health care except that Canadian Forces and other government employees have BCBS cards. LOL!

Edited March 28, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

Work's out great for me and my family.....double coverage....double medical and double dental. Not sure what it ahs to do with Canadian health care except that Canadian Forces and other government employees have BCBS cards. LOL!

I see you went to your self-centered response... I could rephrase and ask, "how's that been working out for your country"? Do ya have a handy one-liner repartee to that - hey?

[madmax]

It's not the same money! Are you people seriously this stupid?

No they are not stupid. Nor are they thick. Nor are they wrong.

Private clinics pay for their own equipment. Private clinic patients pay for their treatment with their own money. They still pay taxes to the government.

Like Dentists. Wow that's great. And to get me to buy into this is like pulling me wanting to pull my own teeth out.

[wyly]

Perhaps Saudi kings fly to the Mayo Clinic due to reputation. As an example, Princess Margaret is easily one of the best cancer hospitals in the world. I'm willing to bet the difference is in how much money each hospital puts in to their annual advertising budgets and that the Mayo Clinic or John Hopkins spends significantly more.

ya americans all figure they can just drop into the Mayo clinic or John Hopkins any time...sorry, out for dinner with my MD friend who tells me he knows a couple who both work at the Mayo and they can't afford to be a patient there...and another MD friend actually moved his practice from John Hopkins to Calgary, imagine that...they both describe the american system as a horror show...

[wyly]

Exactly. It's not a systemic issue, but a demographical one. Perhaps death panels ARE in order .

in 20 years we'll have literally buried the biggest problem with healthcare in Canada, the boomers will mostly be gone and demographics should stabilize...

[eyeball]

The top of the pyramid would be your provincial Minister of Health. I don't think I can even name the one for Ontario and most would say I'm relatively well-informed on political issues.

The corporations we have will die or be bought out if they don't serve their customers, but not so with our health monopoly.

Whoever they are I'm quite certain provincial Ministers of Health operate according to the same dictates and partisan pressures that any federal Minister does. Notice they also all operate in the same intensely secretive environments.

You know what I'm getting at here Michael but you're probably right there is absolutely nothing we can do to make this teeny tiny tip of the pyramid transparent so why even try? It's much easier to just turn the pyramid upside down and pretend the base is the tip instead.

Seriously though there is no reason why governments can't be forced to be as beholden to their citizens as corporations are to their customers or more accurately as both should be to their shareholders. The only thing standing in our way is a very small handful of people at the tip of a pyramid who refuse to be held accountable unless it's on their terms or when it suits them...it's phenomenal really.

[bush_cheney2004]

I see you went to your self-centered response... I could rephrase and ask, "how's that been working out for your country"? Do ya have a handy one-liner repartee to that - hey?

But you didn't ask that....now did you? As for "my country", it is "working out" fine for everyone except the commies!

[bush_cheney2004]

ya americans all figure they can just drop into the Mayo clinic or John Hopkins any time...sorry, out for dinner with my MD friend who tells me he knows a couple who both work at the Mayo and they can't afford to be a patient there...and another MD friend actually moved his practice from John Hopkins to Calgary, imagine that...they both describe the american system as a horror show...

All second hand....money talks (and travels to Mayo)....bullshit walks.

[Michael Hardner]

Seriously though there is no reason why governments can't be forced to be as beholden to their citizens as corporations are to their customers or more accurately as both should be to their shareholders. The only thing standing in our way is a very small handful of people at the tip of a pyramid who refuse to be held accountable unless it's on their terms or when it suits them...it's phenomenal really.

There is no interest in making this happen. They're likely supposed to report it now, but they don't due to political manipulation. The public has to be made to understand that they're not paying attention where they should. As it is, they don't even have to try to be secret. The statistics, poor as they are, are out there and people don't care.

[wyly]

Maybe the key is better management. I have dealt with doctors committees in the past through my work, and my experience is that they're not results-oriented as much as they are discussion-oriented.

I'm not sure I understand your point here...

the MD I had dinner with not long ago said it was a problem of not enough cash and poor allocation of resources...no one wants to pay more taxes to correct shortages in key areas so governments juggle budgets trying patch things up by cutting other programs and moving cash around to put out fires...he gave me an example of how the government made this announcement releasing funding for hiring of 6 specialist in our health region, but it didn't bother to supply any funding for the support staff? how are these MD's to run a practice without staff? it made for a good political PR but it didn't change the situation at all...

[Michael Hardner]

I'm not sure I understand your point here...

the MD I had dinner with not long ago said it was a problem of not enough cash and poor allocation of resources...no one wants to pay more taxes to correct shortages in key areas ...

Yes, and the problem is that they`re in charge of the supply too aren`t they ? My point is that the medical community isn`t reaching out to other disciplines such as business so I don`t know about the MD`s comments.

so governments juggle budgets trying patch things up by cutting other programs and moving cash around to put out fires...he gave me an example of how the government made this announcement releasing funding for hiring of 6 specialist in our health region, but it didn't bother to supply any funding for the support staff? how are these MD's to run a practice without staff? it made for a good political PR but it didn't change the situation at all...

Key point here: government announcement. Politics. Why is the supply of an important service necessarily tied to somebody getting their name in the paper ? Under a fully private system, if there was demand for a service some agency would step in and try to provide it. Of course, they would charge a profit.

We need a system that falls somewhere between these extremes.

[wyly]

Yes, and the problem is that they`re in charge of the supply too aren`t they ? My point is that the medical community isn`t reaching out to other disciplines such as business so I don`t know about the MD`s comments.

Key point here: government announcement. Politics. Why is the supply of an important service necessarily tied to somebody getting their name in the paper ? Under a fully private system, if there was demand for a service some agency would step in and try to provide it. Of course, they would charge a profit.

We need a system that falls somewhere between these extremes.

no, it's a matter of Canadians not whining about service shortages and then whining about increased taxes to fix those shortages, nothing is for free... demanding services and expecting governments to pay for health services and all other services we demand without an increase in taxation is impossible, it's unrealistic...every election we play this same stupid game, "hold the line on taxes or we won't vote for you" and the at same time "we want better healthcare services"... every provincial government conservative, liberal or NDP is caught in the same trap...

[Michael Hardner]

no, it's a matter of Canadians not whining about service shortages and then whining about increased taxes to fix those shortages, nothing is for free... demanding services and expecting governments to pay for health services and all other services we demand without an increase in taxation is impossible, it's unrealistic...every election we play this same stupid game, "hold the line on taxes or we won't vote for you" and the at same time "we want better healthcare services"... every provincial government conservative, liberal or NDP is caught in the same trap...

You`re assuming that resources are deployed with 100% efficiency, which is not the case.

More services can be provided with less money. It`s possible. Is it likely ? We will never know unless we allow some private competition. If it can`t work, then there will only be public services but they will likely improve in response to the challenge.

[wyly]

You`re assuming that resources are deployed with 100% efficiency, which is not the case.

More services can be provided with less money. It`s possible. Is it likely ? We will never know unless we allow some private competition. If it can`t work, then there will only be public services but they will likely improve in response to the challenge.

since we operate at about one half the cost per capita than the USA and we live nearly 3 years longer where do you see a plus side to going with two services?...again I see more whining we are very efficient now going the other direction seems a backwards step to me....

[bjre]

Law makes monopoly possible.

And monopoly makes robbery possible.

When you think its just free for medical charge, actually you pay it through tax, it is the largest part that you pay in tax.

Where does the money go, it goes to the pockets of people in the hospitals and the people in medical industries.

Only free market and free competition can solve this problem, that is simple: allow others to be a doctor, allow others to open their own hospital, allow others to produce their own medicine.

1000 Dollars For A Tooth Brush!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH2YQ6djxTE

[Michael Hardner]

since we operate at about one half the cost per capita than the USA and we live nearly 3 years longer where do you see a plus side to going with two services?...again I see more whining we are very efficient now going the other direction seems a backwards step to me....

Interestingly, you base your opinion on the whining you hear. This tells me Canadians don`t whine enough. ( I know, hard to believe eh ? )

Also, you`re comparing our system with the US based on cost, rather than comparing our system with itself. Why is that ? If the measure is against the US system, we can decline quite a bit before our system is bad.

Thirdly, we will never have a US-style system here yet that is entirely how the debate is framed every time it comes up.

I want to point out again that I have supported one-tier when Harris took the knife to government-supplied services. I was glad when he was drummed out of office, but the Liberals have been nothing but a cynical replacement. Are they better than Harris ? In my opinion, yes. But they take advantage of the fact that most Canadians don`t complain.

[punked]

Law makes monopoly possible.

And monopoly makes robbery possible.

When you think its just free for medical charge, actually you pay it through tax, it is the largest part that you pay in tax.

Where does the money go, it goes to the pockets of people in the hospitals and the people in medical industries.

Only free market and free competition can solve this problem, that is simple: allow others to be a doctor, allow others to open their own hospital, allow others to produce their own medicine.

1000 Dollars For A Tooth Brush!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH2YQ6djxTE

False. Plenty of prices in the "free market" end up costing way too much. It is cause of game theory, if we all get a piece of the market we wont have to compete if we all work together to up prices. It happens all the time.