Michael Hardner Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 I guess most of the 28k were wasted by corruption in the bureaucracy because of no competition exist in Canadian health system. It still costs less than the private bureaucracy in the US systems, but yes you are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 It still costs less than the private bureaucracy in the US systems, but yes you are correct. Oh....well if that's the case...then all is well. As long as it's less costly than whatever the Americans are doing...world benchmark that they are and all. Can you imagine living with such a system? Those silly Americans...they could have it great like in Canada....but nooooooooooooooooo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 (edited) Because the more unemployed illiterates we have the easier it will be to pay for health care? I'm not seeing the logic here. Probably because you havent a clue the demographics of Canadian immigrants. Most of them are not illiterate at all. According to "Education in Canada: Raising the standard." which is a 2003 study of census data... Immigrants arriving in Canada in recent years are more educated than were immigrants who arrived in the past and are twice as likely as the Canadian-born population to have a university education. And... immigrants are responsible for the vast majority of growth in the labor force (and in the tax base) over the last 20 years. Immigrants today account for a large and increasing proportion of labour force growth in Canada. In fact, immigrants who arrived during the 1990s accounted for about 70 percent of net labour force growth between 1991 and 2001 a proportion set to increase to 100 percent over the next decade, a result in part of low rates of natural increase in the Canadian-born population. The entire caricature of Canadian immigrants as illiterate, unemployed losers, is really nothing more than an urban myth perpetuated by xenophobic simpletons. The immigrant employment rate is only about 3% more than the unemployment rate for Canadian born citizens and you would expect that because theyre moving to a new and it takes a bit of time to adapt and get on your feet. Edited October 31, 2010 by dre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bloodyminded Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 (edited) The entire caricature of Canadian immigrants as illiterate, unemployed losers, is really nothing more than an urban myth perpetuated by xenophobic simpletons. The immigrant employment rate is only about 3% more than the unemployment rate for Canadian born citizens and you would expect that because theyre moving to a new and it takes a bit of time to adapt and get on your feet. Not nice, dre, trying to ruin cherished myths. Next you'll tell us that "the left" hasn't dragged us all into a sewer, that Albertans are not self-reliant libertarians, and that we are not at Threat Level One for the imminent Muslim takeover of society. Leave the pretty and sacred cows alone. Edited October 31, 2010 by bloodyminded Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 Not nice, dre, trying to ruin cherished myths. Next you'll tell us that "the left" hasn't dragged us all into a sewer, that Albertans are not self-reliant libertarians, and that we are not at Threat Level One for the imminent Muslim takeover of society. Leave the pretty and sacred cows alone. Sorry BM Ill try to do a better job. Here... ill write some lines to remind myself. "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted October 31, 2010 Report Share Posted October 31, 2010 It still costs less than the private bureaucracy in the US systems, but yes you are correct. I wasn't aware those were the only two choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 1, 2010 Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 I wasn't aware those were the only two choices. Don't roll your eyes at me. If you've read my many posts on healthcare here, you'd see that I'm a strong advocate of 'third way' healthcare management. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjre Posted November 1, 2010 Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 Sorry BM Ill try to do a better job. Here... ill write some lines to remind myself. "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." "They hate us for our freedom." The freedom is a lie. Maybe it exist for rich guys. For poor people, there is no freedom, when they were bullied, they have no money to hire lawyer so that they were threaten / persuaded to admit they were guilty even they have not. They have to work to make living, or they have to go outside to live in street. They have to wait hours in hospital in emergency, if they left, they have to restart waiting again. They have to wait for months for doctors after family doctors recommended. Their voice can not be on mainstream media, if they watch mainstream TV, they have to watch big business selected programs. Hate, maybe not so serious, feel unwelcome, it could be. "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." "Immigrants are stupid and lazy." Stupid? Wrong. Immigrants can think because they saw more than those who never see other kind of world, because they know more than one kind of brainwash system. They were more experienced. Lazy? that is a word more suitable for those who live on the tax that immigrants give out each year. If there are not so many people lazy here why need ask so many immigrants come to work for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Ashley Posted November 1, 2010 Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 (edited) In my budget policy strategy - (which includes removing income taxes), development - I came to conclusions that I would tend to agree with the need for addressing the Health Care (Medicare) system - caused primarily by an aging population - with increasing cost projections. Of my policy objectives I highlighted the following system to address the "senior's problem" 1. Alteration to the OAS scheme as follows: During the 15 year ramp down of corporate taxes (@1% per year) to have a familial fee for 3 generational links - that all members of common family pay up to the corporate rate 15% year 1 14% year 2 13% year 3 and so on, up to the maximum of all OAS costs for those in their family. The second part is an OAS fee set at 1 cent per 30k income - in cycles,, this worked out to about $1700 for $30k income earner - or $3400 for a $60k up to around $550k for a person with an annual income of $9 million. This paired with a phase out of OAS to a pension system such as more functional CPP - an optional CPP designed to meet the poverty line alone. The program would be rolled out over the 25 year timeframe with the first 5 years seeing no changes. The next 5 years seeing a reduction of 2% per year, the next 5 seeing a reduction of 4% per year and 8% for every year thereafter in payouts for new members. This with a 3 month increase in retirement age every year - with a 4 year grace period for those soon to be entering retirement for those within 4 years of retirement. The goal is to shift "social services such as OAS to the provinces as it is a provincial responsibility. This is health related because it is seniors who are in poverty that are at greatest risk of health issues, and that is why we need to insure health services are funded - and to do that you need to remove other costs and combat health issues induced from inadequette attention to issues of poverty on a social level - rather than treating poverty on an individual basis. 2. Implementing a national health strategy that runs health insurance as a service - but this being an optional subscription. Between the poverty line and middle income line the fees would be subsidized or ramped up to the maximum rate so those in low income are partially covered - while those who are in the middle income range would pay the full rate (currently health care costs may sit at around $3000 to $9000 per person but using a "pay for what you use" rates would be locked into different plan options - much like private medical insurance such as blue cross or others. People would have the option to choose private health insurance instead of the national plan provided it met basic criteria. 3. Allowing private health facilities equality with private facilities to create competition for services. 4. Unmet health care costs would be met by the Medical Sector - through much the same as the OAS system up to 15% for companies earning more than $120,000/year (note personal income taxes would be removed and the baseline for companies is removed from the corporate rate - so the medical industry would see an increase in their "HEALTH POVERTY DONATIONS as their corporate tax rate decreased on a 1% for 1% basis) this would only be taxed to the maximum of the need. So if less than a total of 15% of all the medical industry - the total cost estimated at $58 billion with the industry valued at ONLY $7 billion this equates to only about 1 billion of $58 billion dollars. The other portion would have to come from those employed in the health care field - who earn over the poverty line as well as the government and public. Canada cannot aford to spend 138 billion it can't afford to spend $58 billion - we are looking at issues such as over medication (medication accounting for $25 billion / year and care for "non emergency issues" Areas to cut public funding to "Mental Health" for non life threatening instances - no voluntary treatment services also the government needs to end Court Diversions - if they are a criminal give them treatment in jail, if they arn't don't violate their constitutional rights by saying they arn't a person then go about torturing them with tax payer funds. This costs 50 billion alone in Canada. Canada also has to look at bulk and generic only being covered for common health issues - especially relating to age. If the drug works use it but only the best drug should be used - and it should be produced at cost with a minor royalty for the largest health issues - through poverty care - people with thier own plans can opt for the drugs they want. There is no reason why health care should be costing the goverment 2x as much. Cut as much as is possible for ppeople and implment it into health insurance of choice. Those in poverty would stay covered - they apparently account for 1/3rd of the cost anyway. Atleast we see a 66% decrease in governmental health care spending without forcing people to pay taxes. The health care fee would be only to pay for poverty care and it would first come from the medical industry itself (as well up to 15% would be an import tarrif on all medical services from other countries including health devices and otherwise imported into Canada) The tarrif, the domestic health sector levee up to 15%, and the rest to be cycled) This will hopefully reduce the overall health care cost in Canada - and provide lower cost product and more of a domestic health market. The government woudl also put a priority on assisting medical industry in Canada, help medical device and program start ups, and fund healthier lifestyles by paying back to people who are under the median cost for their NHIP plan cost - that is they would be refunded a portion for using less mone in their NHIP plan. The systems savings are paid back to them. Edited November 1, 2010 by William Ashley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 1, 2010 Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 W. Ashley - it's impressive to me that you came up with this plan. I don't agree with it though, nor do I think there is significant political will to bringing such a thing forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted November 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 It's wrong because the system isn't set up with any kind of feedback to ensure that it's run properly. The system relies on politicians to manage the system properly, and politicians are notorious for focusing on short-term goals, and popular issues only. The problem, though, is that people only accept the situation and don't demand better. The problem is with the people. I thought Canada was implementing the Romanow report for health care which focused on long term goals over a 10-15 year period. I don't know if what you say is true. I mean there are problems but it seems you are just spouting talking points and not actually talking about problems her as evidence would indicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 1, 2010 Report Share Posted November 1, 2010 I thought Canada was implementing the Romanow report for health care which focused on long term goals over a 10-15 year period. I don't know if what you say is true. I mean there are problems but it seems you are just spouting talking points and not actually talking about problems her as evidence would indicate. See other threads where I have posted about the lack of accountability and feedback in the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted November 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 See other threads where I have posted about the lack of accountability and feedback in the system. Yep I will just go search the forums for them right now. I agree the system isn't great but it aint terrible either. I think with time, political will, and funding we can fix it and make it the best in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Yep I will just go search the forums for them right now. I agree the system isn't great but it aint terrible either. I think with time, political will, and funding we can fix it and make it the best in the world. Ok. My complaint is that there is no effective reporting of key performance statistics, despite spending hundreds of millions on it, and despite these things being worked on across Canada for a decade or more. What reporting there is doesn't seem to be monitored by independent agencies, and historical data isn't available. To compare our system against the US system as constant proof of how good it is makes no sense. We should compare our system against itself too. Too often people want to use the healthcare system as a proxy for left vs. right discussions. The system as it is needs to be discussed and that's not being done. If there isn't good information about our healthcare system, then it will decline over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punked Posted November 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Ok. My complaint is that there is no effective reporting of key performance statistics, despite spending hundreds of millions on it, and despite these things being worked on across Canada for a decade or more. What reporting there is doesn't seem to be monitored by independent agencies, and historical data isn't available. To compare our system against the US system as constant proof of how good it is makes no sense. We should compare our system against itself too. Too often people want to use the healthcare system as a proxy for left vs. right discussions. The system as it is needs to be discussed and that's not being done. If there isn't good information about our healthcare system, then it will decline over time. Oh well then I would agree with you. I would love to know what provinces provide the best healthcare and then look at what they are doing. Nothing wrong with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 Oh well then I would agree with you. I would love to know what provinces provide the best healthcare and then look at what they are doing. Nothing wrong with that. No, it's a great idea. By forcing hospitals to publish their costs and performance statistics openly, we create a sort of market place where results are plainly visible. Since these institutions don't have to turn a profit, a well managed information system like that has the potential to replace the 'invisible hand' of the marketplace as envisioned by Adam Smith, IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Ashley Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 (edited) W. Ashley - it's impressive to me that you came up with this plan. I don't agree with it though, nor do I think there is significant political will to bringing such a thing forward. What don't you agree with? Here is another look http://williamashley.info/SOCIAL/SP/healthpolicyplan.htm Click on the boxes to find out more info you can go to http://williamashley.info/SOCIAL/SP/SP.htm I welcome criticism or suggestions on this --- but really I havn't seen anything quite like it in Canada. AND It removes income taxes to joe public It addresses the issue of poverty It cares for the infirm It liberalizes the economy It is suppose to be a free country with a free market It improves health care. You don't get these things with the current medicare. Fact is Canada can't pay for all these social programs - it is a rape of the youth. And nailing the coffin into your old age when you are most vulnerable and the programs get more drastically slashed when things are "more pressing". Canada has to cut 20-50 Billion just to meet par - and this plan does that, all by itself. There is still some missing information on social contracts --- this allows charities and individuals to put money into a service - if they believe it will have beneficial return - and ties in an economic factor that the individual receiving the social care/optional medical care - is stipend until the money "loaned" on the social contract is paid back. If many of these social contracts are successful then it provides for the government to "implement" a government plan on the same basis using a successful model that is economically viable. That is doesn't cost the public money. If you support a ballooning debt you don't deserve a vote. The idiocy of Canadians in voting for people who support debt spending is a record all to its own - it has set Canadians back while inspiring poverty and a substandard living condition - true Canada tends to have a pretty good living Condition but it could have been better without having the some of the highest taxes in the world. Also having an unhealthy country is in part due to support for unhealthy lifestyles by letting people get a buffet instead of a menu. When people have to think about their own health instead of doctors, maybe they will make better lifestyle choices in regard to their health - lay the costs out for them to see instead of masking it behind a wall of debt wage slavery for the underprivileged. Edited November 2, 2010 by William Ashley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted November 2, 2010 Report Share Posted November 2, 2010 What don't you agree with? Well, is the corporate tax cut across-the-board ? If so, it seems like too much. What are the expected revenues under the new system vs. what we have now ? Where will the savings come from ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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