Israel continues to spit in the face of international law

[naomiglover]

Fine by me...."apologist" is just more of your weak position rhetoric. Try "staunch supporter and defender" of Israel's right to exist instead. Take your weak game back to where it comes from and face the reality of geopolitics and power. Your "international laws" mean nothing without muscle to back them up, and that's why it's a "familiar cycle".

Your gangsta talk and your disrespect for international law, which helped to create Israel, is not intimidating.

Israel's right to exist has nothing to do with Israel's settlements and land grabbing. We have been past Israel's right to exist excuse for a few decades now. Anyone who uses that in their debates looks almost as foolish as those who use the holocaust to justify Israeli actions towards the Palestinians.

If you want to abandon legal, moral and ethical principals because you have the urge to be a "staunch supporter and defender" of something, then go for it. This makes you a bad person.

[Argus]

What's their/your excuse for Israel's violations of international law during the time PLO was in power? PLO changed its charter to recognize Israel and all international laws relevant to the region. This happened in the late 80's.

If the law says you have to cut your throat would you do it?

[bush_cheney2004]

Your gangsta talk and your disrespect for international law, which helped to create Israel, is not intimidating.

Again..you have it bass ackwards...it was international POWER that created Israel.

Israel's right to exist has nothing to do with Israel's settlements and land grabbing. We have been past Israel's right to exist excuse for a few decades now. Anyone who uses that in their debates looks almost as foolish as those who use the holocaust to justify Israeli actions towards the Palestinians.

See above...feel the POWER...of post war consolidation and control...whether it be Israel or Texas and New Mexico!

Get it yet? How are those Grand River land claims (Caledonia) going in your neck of the world?

If you want to abandon legal, moral and ethical principals because you have the urge to be a "staunch supporter and defender" of something, then go for it. This makes you a bad person.

OK...that's cool. In the mean time, back at the ranch, even the "victims" you pretend to support laugh at your impotence.

Edited May 31, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[myata]

Your move....

What move, we have arrived at (or never left) the destination. After all, that's the way things have been since the times premordial, those amaebae, dinosaurs, troglodytes and cave people with clubs and stones. Why bother moving anywhere else?

[bush_cheney2004]

What move, we have arrived at (or never left) the destination. After all, that's the way things have been since the times premordial, those amaebae, dinosaurs, troglodytes and cave people with clubs and stones. Why bother moving anywhere else?

More rhetoric from a meaningless place. If you value your position, how are you going to advance? What do you have to offer more than "feelings". I am a citizen of a country with actual skin in the game...what "skin" do you offer? Will you stand in front of an IDF Caterpillar D-9?

[Bonam]

most Palestinians are normal, decent, innocent people.

Besides idealism and assumption, do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

[BCMan]

funny, my American friend asked me that same question when I said canadains are not violent, then he started telling me about Robert Pickton.

Besides idealism and assumption, do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

[Jack Weber]

funny, my American friend asked me that same question when I said canadains are not violent, then he started telling me about Robert Pickton.

Why did'nt you respond with..

"I see your Robert Pickton(and add a Clifford Olson and Paul Bernardo just for fun),and I raise you a Ted Bundy,John Wayne Gacy,Wayne Williams,Ed Guine(sp),and,Jeffery Dahmer..."

[BCMan]

My comment was directed to Bonam who was suggesting that the chosen race and the chosen people are all wise while others are useless and destructive. you caught the irony there.

Why did'nt you respond with..

"I see your Robert Pickton(and add a Clifford Olson and Paul Bernardo just for fun),and I raise you a Ted Bundy,John Wayne Gacy,Wayne Williams,Ed Guine(sp),and,Jeffery Dahmer..."

[bloodyminded]

When people vote into power a terrorist entity which vows to destroy their large, powerful neighbor by any means necessary those people should not be unduly surprised to find that large, powerful neighbour takes umbrage.

So what we do with an issue that should be of far, far greater concern to you--that Canadians, Americans, French, Israelis, etc consistently vote in governments who materially and intentionally support terrorism on a scale Hamas could only dream of?

If that's not more important, I think you might explain why.

Edited June 1, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Argus]

Besides idealism and assumption, do you have any evidence to back up this statement?

Well, they voted a terrorist group into government. That's normal, right? They celebrate the deaths of their children when they blow themselves up in Jewish markets and pizza shops. That's certainly normal. Their kids collect trading cards of suicide bombers. And God knows, we all did that as kids, right?

[Argus]

del

Edited June 6, 2010 by Argus

[Argus]

So what we do with an issue that should be of far, far greater concern to you--that Canadians, Americans, French, Israelis, etc consistently vote in governments who materially and intentionally support terrorism on a scale Hamas could only dream of?

You have an interesting view of reality, but unfortunately, I, being sane, can't quite grasp it.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Argus

[bloodyminded]

You have an interesting view of reality, but unfortunately, I, being sane, can't quite grasp it.

Reality, and ugly, incontestable truths are certainly difficult, I see that.

Edited June 1, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Argus]

Reality, and ugly, incontestable truths are certainly difficult, I see that.

Especially when the only evidence of these "incontestable "truths" are in your mind.

[bloodyminded]

Especially when the only evidence of these "incontestable "truths" are in your mind.

Well, I'm certainly willing to believe I could be mistaken about any number of matters, whether through insufficient knowledge or skewed analysis of the facts.

But there are certain cases, one of which we discussed briefly on another thread, which are at least so difficult to dispute that....no one has yet made a serious, expansive effort to dispute them; even as they insist upon arguing against them, they got nothing.

Situaiton like that topic should at least give pause to people. That doesn't seem too radical a suggestion.

Edited June 1, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Argus]

Well, I'm certainly willing to believe I could be mistaken about any number of matters, whether through insufficient knowledge or skewed analysis of the facts.

But there are certain cases, one of which we discussed briefly on another thread, which are at least so difficult to dispute that....no one has yet made a serious, expansive effort to dispute them; even as they insist upon arguing against them, they got nothing.

Situaiton like that topic should at least give pause to people. That doesn't seem too radical a suggestion.

The problem is that when one raises complex spectres from the past in a defense of a terrorist organization it does not tend to lead to open intellectual discourse.

And there's no point in even pretending to deny that is exactly what you are doing - intentionally or not. When someone condemns HAMAS and another jumps up to say we are just as bad, if not worse, that cannot be seen as other than a an attempt to defend HAMAS.

[dre]

Well, they voted a terrorist group into government. That's normal, right? They celebrate the deaths of their children when they blow themselves up in Jewish markets and pizza shops. That's certainly normal. Their kids collect trading cards of suicide bombers. And God knows, we all did that as kids, right?

Yeah when youre the subject of a brutal military occupation the result is that political militants and hardliners get populist support. Israels policies of expansionism, collective punishment, and theft make it pretty much impossible for moderates to get anywhere in the occupied territories. And thats not an accident.

[bloodyminded]

The problem is that when one raises complex spectres from the past in a defense of a terrorist organization it does not tend to lead to open intellectual discourse.

And there's no point in even pretending to deny that is exactly what you are doing - intentionally or not. When someone condemns HAMAS and another jumps up to say we are just as bad, if not worse, that cannot be seen as other than a an attempt to defend HAMAS.

You are charging me with a tu quoque argument, but it doesn't apply. I'm not trying to divert attention away from the subject; I'm calling into question the sincerity of the outrage. It's either fraudulent or is the result of deep indoctrination.

You don't oppose terrorism, even of a magnitude that outshines what here gets you exercised; you oppose it in certain circumstances, depending entirely on who are the perpetrators and the victims. You're not alone, if that's consolation.

Edited June 1, 2010 by bloodyminded

[naomiglover]

Well, they voted a terrorist group into government.

Israelis have voted in successive governments who have killed scores of Palestinians and have continued to break international law. These violations of international law go well beyond Hamas' years. It includes the years when the PLO was in power. A government who, in writing, accepted the Israeli State and recognized international law pertaining to the area.

Most recently, in Gaza around 1000 civilians were killed, including over 300 children. Not to mention the devastating destruction of an already fragile land. Most Israelis have cheered for their government and have tried to excuse this, despite reports and conclusions from reputable and respected organizations, that Israel has committed war crimes. What does this say about Israeli people?

[DogOnPorch]

Israelis have voted in successive governments who have killed scores of Palestinians and have continued to break international law. These violations of international law go well beyond Hamas' years. It includes the years when the PLO was in power. A government who, in writing, accepted the Israeli State and recognized international law pertaining to the area.

Most recently, in Gaza around 1000 civilians were killed, including over 300 children. Not to mention the devastating destruction of an already fragile land. Most Israelis have cheered for their government and have tried to excuse this, despite reports and conclusions from reputable and respected organizations, that Israel has committed war crimes. What does this say about Israeli people?

He was talking about Hamas...you know...the fellows you admire.

[jbg]

Israelis have voted in successive governments who have killed scores of Palestinians and have continued to break international law. These violations of international law go well beyond Hamas' years. It includes the years when the PLO was in power. A government who, in writing, accepted the Israeli State and recognized international law pertaining to the area.

My thoughts here (link).

Edited June 1, 2010 by jbg

[bush_cheney2004]

Israelis have voted in successive governments who have killed scores of Palestinians and have continued to break international law. These violations of international law go well beyond Hamas' years. It includes the years when the PLO was in power. A government who, in writing, accepted the Israeli State and recognized international law pertaining to the area.

Yep...and it also accepted the continuing responsibility of defending the Israeli state from attacks regardless of who is running (and mostly not governing) Palestine.

Most recently, in Gaza around 1000 civilians were killed, including over 300 children. Not to mention the devastating destruction of an already fragile land. Most Israelis have cheered for their government and have tried to excuse this, despite reports and conclusions from reputable and respected organizations, that Israel has committed war crimes. What does this say about Israeli people?

The same thing it says about any "people" engaged in such conflict(s). Reports and conclusions mean nothing in the face of continuing hostilities and security concerns.

[bloodyminded]

Yep...and it also accepted the continuing responsibility of defending the Israeli state from attacks regardless of who is running (and mostly not governing) Palestine.

The same thing it says about any "people" engaged in such conflict(s). Reports and conclusions mean nothing in the face of continuing hostilities and security concerns.

This sounds like a conclusion.

[myata]

More rhetoric from a meaningless place. If you value your position, how are you going to advance? What do you have to offer more than "feelings". I am a citizen of a country with actual skin in the game...what "skin" do you offer? Will you stand in front of an IDF Caterpillar D-9?

Then you keep bulldozing your way throgh, no doubts no questions asked. And keep your fingers crossed that it won't hit you back; and it wouldn't be logical to count on universal sympathy when it does, not like you'd be an innocent victim of vicious aggression, right? What else can be added to the troglodyte politics? One side will emerge.. the other will be beaten to ... (yes that). Which one, we'll just have to see; if we live long enough.

But on the other side of things, even calling things their own names will make its way, eventually. Remember South Africa, all the traditional friendships and positive engagements? Then calling it apartheid. Then, universal condemnation. Then, the change.

The same is coming to this conflict, just watch it. The unspoken conventions, dirty little secrets, elephants in the room, behind the door politics won't cut it anymore. When the world sees each act for what it is, without preconceptions and prejudged excuses, the realization that just brute force won't do it all may finally come to Israel - and its international sponsors. Which is just as well, because that would be their only chance to have long term future in that region, as all the history shows us the will to fight tooth and nail won't run in a society forever and both the time and demographics aren't exactly on their side.